Size of the layout seems to be the other variable. ? ?
With dead rail, one set of costs (electronics and the like) increases with the number of engines.? That’s one variable. ?
The other set of costs are those associated with track maintenance and the like.? Here the costs actually decrease as the amount of track increases.? The more track you have, the less there is to clean, etc. ? If that makes sense.?
A mutual friend of ours often notes that small layouts benefit more from Dead Rail than large ones. ? That is true for the first variable but not for the second. ?
For any given railroad, one issue to consider is simply does the “cost” of one exceed the “savings” of the other, remembering that there are many ways to calculate costs.? Would you rather purchase and wire engine electronics or clean track, to cite one. ?
For only a few engines? Probably much cheaper to use dead rail. ? Sent from my Tardis
--
Ted Larson
??????? --------??????? NASG.org??????? --------???????
GN in 1965
|
Re: Express reefer trucks
Bud,
The REA reefer was built from a Ye Old Huff and Puff kit.? I upgraded the kit with some styrene parts, Archer Fine Transfer rivets, etc.? You can see some of the upgrades in the build photo attached.? I wrote an article about the build with the theme of upgrading older wooden model kits with better details that appeared in the November 2015 NMRA Magazine.??
?
Brooks Stover
|
Re: Express reefer trucks
Brooks, ? Just curious on that REA reefer…old Kinsman? Scenery Unlimited? Or ? ?Steam Depot? The latter had one piece sides, a plus. Anyway, it’s nice to see the curved end fascia which is prototypical. Very nice! ? ? ?Bud Rindfleisch
|
For only a few engines? Probably much cheaper to use dead rail. ? Sent from my Tardis -- Ted Larson trainweb.org/mhrr/??????? --------??????? NASG.org??????? --------??????? GN in 1965
|
If I may, I have done some decoder
swaps, some custom installations, but I generally like to keep
things steady as long as I can.? Also my first TCS decoder was
running fine for several years but I really didn't run it much and
didn't like the breaking function as it's very different than
most.? But it just blew one day.? Then again one of our guys had a
2amp Tusamani really burn up this past weekend.? So no guarantees
As far as 'systems' go,? most of the
Houston area started with Digitrax, but NCE now seems to be
replacing those.? I started with the Digitrax system and one of
their sales guys lived here plus I photographed some of their ad
work. Actually I was featured in a full page RMC ad too, So I have
generally been very happy with the results, until 6-8 months ago,
when much of it failed.? I can't blame the system, cause I really
don't know, but I've been unable to get it back on line--I've been
known to 'screw up' more than once!? On the other hand, if some of
you have replaced their stuff a few times, maybe mine is actually
"great" as it was the same since day one!? Maybe I just outlived
my power system or like my early 70's Marantz stereo receiver that
seems to last forever.
One thing that does bother me is that
the systems grow so much so that any malfunction on one part of
the system seems to mess with other segments--detection vs JMRI vs
Sound loaders vs, whatever is next.? I don't want to spend my
semi-valuable time updating software.
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
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Bill
?
I
gave Brooks’ extensive reply a quick look and pretty much
agree with it all. In probably 25 years now of DCC I have
never once killed a 1 amp “HO” decoder because of amp
overdraw. I had a first gen “1 amp” Tsunami in my B&O
EM1 that has a motor the size of your fist. 1 of the first
things I did when I got my first loop completed was see how
many brass cars it could pull before slip. I upgraded that
same decoder years later still working – NOT fried.
?
I
have great doubt there is anyone else reading this that has
hardwired 190 decoders at least ONCE for their own
collection. Some locos have had upgrades and multiple
decoders. My Shay has had 8 decoders in it since 2007.
?
I
much prefer TSC decoders. NCE are my second favorite
followed by Soundtraxx.
?
All you have to do is come other I will show you how I do
DCC….
?
Thank
You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S
Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale!
?
See
my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical
Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
?
|
Bill ? I gave Brooks’ extensive reply a quick look and pretty much agree with it all. In probably 25 years now of DCC I have never once killed a 1 amp “HO” decoder because of amp overdraw. I had a first gen “1 amp” Tsunami in my B&O EM1 that has a motor the size of your fist. 1 of the first things I did when I got my first loop completed was see how many brass cars it could pull before slip. I upgraded that same decoder years later still working – NOT fried. ? I have great doubt there is anyone else reading this that has hardwired 190 decoders at least ONCE for their own collection. Some locos have had upgrades and multiple decoders. My Shay has had 8 decoders in it since 2007. ? I much prefer TSC decoders. NCE are my second favorite followed by Soundtraxx. ? All you have to do is come other I will show you how I do DCC…. ? Thank You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale! ? See my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
?
|
Bill,
?
You will get as many pieces of advice on DCC as there are modelers...including advice from some who never tried it.? There's no right answer and everyone has their own experiences.? ?The best suggestion I ever heard was find a DCC modeler in your area modeling in any scale and find out what system they use.? If they're happy, use that system and you have a nearby helper.? Sounds simplistic but it can be a very wise decision.? I had a N scale buddy just a few doors the down street who bought NCE because I had it.? He became a valuable resource, including being able to borrow a throttle when I needed one on short notice and he had experiences and knowledge he shared with me after a while.
?
I've used NCE since 1998...had one of their very first systems.? I'm on my third NCE and I love it.? It's easy to use, throttles and programming modes are intuitive, and the customer service is terrific.? One time I had a tech on the phone for about 40 minutes while we trouble shot an issue with the wireless antennae.
?
You're right that all NMRA-compliant decoders will work with any NMRA-compliant DCC power system.? That said, I would strongly suggest that you pick one decoder manufacturer and use ONLY their decoders.? That way you will only have to learn their system and after your first installation and programming, the subsequent setups will be many times easier.? I've used Soundtraxx exclusively for 20 years.? Are they perfect?? No.? ?But I only have ONE manual to study, not one for a variety of manufacturers.
?
There will be lots of opinion on current ratings.? Some in S swear by 2 amp.? I have used Soundtraxx 1 amp decoders and never had an issue.? This includes using a 1 amp Soundtraxx decoder in a Lionel Y3 (two motors driven with one 1-amp decoder!).? Admittedly I didn't try to pull 80 cars at 50 mph but you have to have a pretty hefty load on a can motor to exceed 1 amp.? ?I run shorter trains at slower speeds so I can appreciate that big layouts with long trains running at high speeds might warrant 2-amp decoders.
?
Installing decoders in AM locomotives is pretty easy as the motor is isolated and there's generally a lot of room under the shell.? I mount the decoder right on top of the motor with 1-sided tape.??
?
You'll be frustrated early in the learning curve...we all have been...but once you've experienced the smooth operation, multiple engines on the same track, and sound (if you go that way) you'll be glad you made the move.
Brooks Stover
|
There has been no end of articles in magazines about DCC and the NMRA Bulletin has a regular column every issue.? (I think long ago somebody wrote a letter to RMC magazine asking something like, "If DCC is so easy, why do you have a 26 issue series on it?")? But it is actually pretty easy today in my opinion as you don't have to know everything to get a system working.? And even though the full instruction manual for a decoder 133 pages, you usually only deal with a tiny subset of the capabilities.
But to distill it down:
A primary concern is current draw.? You simply need to have an idea of the motor current draw and get decoders that are big enough.
I like SoundTraxx decoders and have installed many in HO locomotives.? They have a "Decoder Selector" page here which includes S/Sn3:
The Tsunami TSU-2200 seems to be their recommendation for everything.? It has a 2 amp motor stall current rating.
It is also good to add a "current keeper" which is typically a bank of supercapacitors to help maintain decoder power of any dead spots or dirty track.
One thing about "current keepers" or even just a single capacitor which is also used to help keep lights on in passenger car lighting circuits.? You need to be concerned about "inrush current" which is the capacitor charge current going into capacitors when first powering up.? It can be extremely high and incorrectly detected as a short circuit.? In the case of SoundTraxx, they have mitigated this by limiting the charge current in their current keepers.? I don't know if everyone else has followed suit on this or not.? (I have converted many passenger car lighting circuits to limit the charge current.)
Also, you may have locos with incandescent lights.? Decoders can run incandescent or LEDs.? You might want to consider LEDs for everything.? They typically require a current limiting resistor which the incandescent typically does not.
There are certainly other decoder choices.? I just have had good luck with SoundTraxx AND you can call them and talk to them easily for technical advice.? I also believe they are pretty hard to damage.
For the control system, I'm associated with a large museum layout that uses Digitrax.? Not that fond of it.? If I were starting, I would put NCD at the top of the list.? But I'm less knowledgeable on that end.? At our local hobby shop, they sell a number of the NCE Power Cab starter kits that seem good to get people started.
I do have a Digitrax DCS52 "all in one" unit at my workbench for testing.? Comments on the Groups.io Digitrax group suggest their customer service isn't great, manuals not always right (but that's not unusual), and turnaround time on repairs is very slow.? I had an issue with a software bug in the DCS52 and, once I went through more trouble than I should have had to in order to get them to believe it, they did fix it.
For measuring DCC voltage, however, I do know a thing or two about that.? And also, many details about what the DCC voltage is.? And especially what will work, and what will not, to measure it.? If you want a reference with more than you want to know about that, including measuring equipment evaluations, you can find it here:
It also has section on how to use an ESR meter to help locate short circuits.? This can be VERY handy, and time saving, and might be of general interest to many.
If you are new to DCC, and not particularly familiar with bits and bytes like a software or electronics type might be, some of can seem a bit obtuse.? Configuring decoders depends on the aptly named "Configuration Variable" or "CVs."? Some are reasonable straight forward, some, like the infamous CV29" are not.? This CV uses the individual bits as choices rather than collectively as a numerical value.? Fortunately, NEC, and others, tend to provide interfaces that give you an easier to understand look at this.? So, you make easy to read English choices for "Direction", and "4 bit or 2 bit address" and such.
You will need to set CV values and will learn about more than one type or programming such as on a programming track or "on main" and such.
On the Digitrax group, the common refrain for people struggling with CVs too much is "use JMRI."? This is basically open source free software that provides an easy to read interface for everything plus additional features like being able to save all of your selections for each loco.? But you don't need it.? Many never use it.? And, certainly not to get started.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Monday, February 17, 2025 at 12:44:15 PM PST, Bill Hawk via groups.io <archhawk@...> wrote:
Group -
?
Maybe this is too "open" of a question but I thought I would start where I know I will get the most information and opinions...
?
I am finally considering the move from AC to DC ~~> DCC.
?
My current roster includes:
?
U36C (Lionel AF)
ES44AC (Lionel AF)
SD-60 (AM, 2 of these)
GP-35 (AM)
S-12 (AM)
SW-9 (SHS)
?
Since the Lionels will "run on anything" I figure I can make the switch-over and at least be able to continue to run some trains while converting/upgrading the other locos.? And then I can come back to the Flyonel (if/when) I want.
?
Can the group point me to a good source for information on what decoders will suit these locos, based on (not in any particular order): price, quality, performance, capabilities, compatibility, connectivity and/or any other metrics?.
?
I looked on the NASG site for any info on decoders for S and other than the links for DigiTrax and SoundTraxx, which do provide listings specific to their products, I did not see any compiled info.
?
I know this is a big pool to dip my toe(s) into.? I have not purchased a DCC system at this point but have heard good impressions from folks about NCE.? I understand that decoder selection is not based or tied to base station system selection.? That said though, are there still compatibility issues that can arise?
?
Have there been any articles in any of the mags?
?
Fire away with suggestions!
?
Bill
Philadelphia
I:64
?
(I wired the layout with an eventual switch to DCC in mind...bus wires, plenty of drops, etc.? I think I am good to go on that front.? It's not that big a layout.)
?
|
Group -
?
Maybe this is too "open" of a question but I thought I would start where I know I will get the most information and opinions...
?
I am finally considering the move from AC to DC ~~> DCC.
?
My current roster includes:
?
U36C (Lionel AF)
ES44AC (Lionel AF)
SD-60 (AM, 2 of these)
GP-35 (AM)
S-12 (AM)
SW-9 (SHS)
?
Since the Lionels will "run on anything" I figure I can make the switch-over and at least be able to continue to run some trains while converting/upgrading the other locos.? And then I can come back to the Flyonel (if/when) I want.
?
Can the group point me to a good source for information on what decoders will suit these locos, based on (not in any particular order): price, quality, performance, capabilities, compatibility, connectivity and/or any other metrics?.
?
I looked on the NASG site for any info on decoders for S and other than the links for DigiTrax and SoundTraxx, which do provide listings specific to their products, I did not see any compiled info.
?
I know this is a big pool to dip my toe(s) into.? I have not purchased a DCC system at this point but have heard good impressions from folks about NCE.? I understand that decoder selection is not based or tied to base station system selection.? That said though, are there still compatibility issues that can arise?
?
Have there been any articles in any of the mags?
?
Fire away with suggestions!
?
Bill
Philadelphia
I:64
?
(I wired the layout with an eventual switch to DCC in mind...bus wires, plenty of drops, etc.? I think I am good to go on that front.? It's not that big a layout.)
?
|
past weekend's train show
The Houston S Guys set our vintage layout in it's
basic form for a Saturday event sponsored by the San Jacinto
Model RR club.? Other than the G gauge guys, our layout seemed
to be as large as any, although we're generally capable of three
times the size.? However that would require an entire day for
setup plus more and younger labor too!
Someplace along the packing process, I misplaced
a back brace, so that really slowed me down, so I was walking
wounded and late!? I did manage to bring a few things to
run--one being my RR UP gas turbine and a few cars.? Everything
ran fairly well, but after unpacking back here I found I had
lost my kingpin screw for the B unit.? That is unfortunate as I
have no idea where it ended up.? Then checking my stray parts
box that evening left zero results.?
I also had just a couple of 'running repairs'
that I think most module guys have eventually--those problems
solved now and they're back from the RIP track!? I store my
newer freight cars on a shelf unit above the layout.? Some time
ago I had sold off a few cars so I just filled the? 4 shelves
with cars without slack!? I stared to return all the cars but
always came up at least one car too many.? So I spent several
useless hours changing out cars but eventually I finally
succeeded !? So with those successes, I went back to my
turbine's B unit and the search for a possible screw
replacement.? That came up lacking again, btw it's a shouldered
spring screw, so not common either!? So I'll probably close the
day one screw short again--screwed again!
Bob Werre
|
Re: Different coupler types on the same layout
On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:58 AM, Ed Loizeaux wrote:
The unmodified S couplers, when running in a train and stretched out, present a clearly visible greater distance between cars.? In my mind, that greater distance reminds me of tinplate trains which need to navigate sharp curves.? Simply put -- it spoils the look.? At least for me.
?
?Yes, it is a small detail, but small details are what separate an average train layout from an outstanding train layout.?
?
Guess it's a good thing I never considered myself anything but an average modeler with my tinplate-ish trains...? :-)
?
Rich G(ajnak)
|
Re: Different coupler types on the same layout
On Sun, Feb 16, 2025 at 02:45 PM, Rich Gajnak wrote:
Either way, the distance between cars loos fine to me, it's not something spend a lot of time I worrying about.
Rich..........
?
Normally I see eye-to-eye with you on most things S.? I am not a rivet counter by any means, but the visible difference in car spacing is painfully obvious when comparing the Kadee S coupler to the Kadee HO coupler.? My personal standard for car spacing is 1/2" which is easy to measure and is very close to the prototype's 3'.? It is not difficult to adjust coupler mounting to achieve the 1/2" spacing.
?
Looking at just two cars coupled together does not provide much to view for comparison.? However, looking closely at a string of 8 cars coupled together provides a much better viewpoint.? The HO couplers provide exactly the close spacing seen on real trains.? The unmodified S couplers, when running in a train and stretched out, present a clearly visible greater distance between cars.? In my mind, that greater distance reminds me of tinplate trains which need to navigate sharp curves.? Simply put -- it spoils the look.? At least for me.
?
?Yes, it is a small detail, but small details are what separate an average train layout from an outstanding train layout.? Just my opinion -- worth what you paid for it.
?
Cheers........Ed Loizeaux
?
--
Ed Loizeaux
Los Altos, CA
|
Re: Express reefer trucks
On 2/16/2025 4:39 PM, Larry Shughart
via groups.io wrote:
I recently picked up a nice group of Kinsman Express Reefer
kits.? i had a few others built in my collection, but not so
great.? i am looking forward to putthing these together.? ?Alas,
they came without trucks.? ?does anyone have some express trucks
they want to sell?? i don't care if they are scale or hirail or
just trucks.? i got wheels :)? ? ?Please let me know, and we can
strike a deal.? ? THANKS
_.
(snip)
Do you mean something along the lines of the 7'-4" wb truck used
under the CNW milk reefers???? Designed to be equalized, but as you
can see not sprung.
#02917? CNW MIlk Car Truck, Pr?? Less wheelsets??? $19.95
Take care
Bill
--
== Author of Military Crime Fiction ==
Amazon Page -
Fair Winds of Death
Fair Winds of Deceit
Fair Winds of Doubt
== Scale Model Railroad Products ==
== Manufacturer - Retailer - Importer ==
Bill Wade
B.T.S.
1782 Trinity Rd
Belington, WV 26250-7621
Phone: 304-823-3729
Fair Winds Always!
|
Re: Express reefer trucks
Me too!? The AM passenger trucks are close enough for my purposes.
Brooks Stover
|
Re: Different coupler types on the same layout
< Those magnets are very slick, do you have a source for them? > ? Yes:? They are the B422 neodymium block magnets.? The price is the same as it was in February, 2015. For a more in depth study of magnets and Kadee #5s see OGR forum: It is a review of my testing various duel magnet combinations.? There are many photos included. Tom Stoltz in Maine
|
Re: Different coupler types on the same layout
Mike.
That's a good source for those
magnets.? (The wife wants some too!)? In a couple of places, on
curves, I've positioned the standard? Kadee under tie magnets only
some time later find that either I've changed wheelsets, couplers
or whatever and they won't work all the time.?
Since I've already done my scenic work,
I don't want to do that kind of 'earthwork' again.? Has anyone
gone in later and just added those to 'help' out?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
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Hi Kim,
This is who I use.?
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Ted Larson
Bob Werre
Bill Lane
