On Jun 3, 2023, at 4:59 AM, Greg Sanders <KE5DXA@...> wrote:

Well guys, I will say I've enjoyed the banter. I've got to say though, I am kinda looking at things from the right field as the game is played.

I started back in the 80's with twin-ax, dumb terminals, Z80 processors, and IBM 34/36 Mainframes, and my only worry was did the hardware work. I was the tech with the engineering degree, who came to fix it. I didn't just swap out parts, I figured out what was wrong. Dealing with software was always (half the time anyway) the culprit of why things didn't work. I needed to learn the program's mistakes and failures on why the hardware stopped working. Was it cabling, the computer, or the device? Nope, usually the software. With Unix, I even needed to learn the print commands and mounting of devices, just like on the mainframe. Then enter DOS, and doing things with Edlin. It served me well, then Windows came along. Those damn software drivers always were the culprit. (Unless someone didn't change the Com port jumpers). In the tech world, I always heard, that once the software was written and released, it was already outdated and need a revision. How true that was. How many decades ago was that?

So 20+yrs ago, I changed my field of work. Hoping to get aways from the crazy diagnosing of computer issues, and entered the real estate world. Paper forms and contracts, binders of listings that got updated by taking out pages and replacing them with new ones, and using folding maps to getting around town. No more computers and pagers. Ham radio was just a spin of the dial or entering numbers into the keypad on my vx-5r. (BTW, I also have my 1st class GROL). Life was good. Then the Realtor world got into computing and doing things with computers again and online access. Ugh, I wanted away from troubleshooting software problems but yet here I am. It got easier to do the work but more complicated at the same time. Then for me, there came along packet and BBS nodes for my ham adventures. Oh my, I'm back to my BBS days and using a dial-up modem. Okay, I've got this. As long as I could stop Windows from changing my working drivers and still run some DOS based software, I was pretty stable. But programmers of Windows and other programs [still] couldn't leave well enough alone. Always needing to release an update. What for? Everything was working fine before some software guy decided he needed job security in a never ending quest for a program without bugs and glitches.

So I decided, hey let's give this RPi thing a try. Everyone is saying how great it is now and much more stable than Windows it was and it doesn't crash. Well guess what??? The thing does crash. Not because of a hardware issue, no it due to software updates, just like Windows in a way. No, it's not the OS, it's the application that causes the crashes. It's a good thing I still have a full head of hair so I can keep pulling some out. These software issues are SO frustrating.

I'm not fluent in Linux, it's still a foreign language. But like Spanish, I know enough to order a beer or get my face slapped. I know, I just need learn (both) more. I don't know about all the flavors of Linux out there, the distros, and all what's available. I'm lucky enough just to get the thing booted and accessed headless.

So when you talk about the issues or so many versions or builders out there, it's just words to the old, but new users to the Linux world. I just want it to work and have someone to contact to ask why I can't get it to ____. After I've said a few !@#$%& words of frustration of course. If someone can write a better [mouse] program, or has the time to write it, I applaud their efforts. But do some R&D testing. I'm tired of being the guinea pig to see if it works. I just want it to work like it's designed to. I follow these IO forums for tidbits of wisdom from folks that know the ins and outs better than I do at this point, and to help me get up to speed without wiping it all and starting over with a fresh install again [for the 10th time].

What if we had to constantly fix our houses due to issues, it would be a money pit. What if we had to constantly fix our car because it was one thing after another that broke, we'd get rid of it. I think people would be more attracted to Linux/RPi and it's features, especially for Ham, if it was more of a one and done thing. Just turn it on and it just runs. I don't care who built it, just build it right.

I see the blank stares in the eyes of some hams with even the mention of Linux and RPi or even some of the modes like packet, JS8call or JT65. They've got no clue. We should work to bring this hobby together, maybe with better instructions on how to use it and set it up. Yeah, YouTube is full of people that like to ramble and hear themselves talk just to say "I made a video". But they are all shouting, yet few can get that hands on step-by-step guidance they need. Many hams aren't computer or windows efficient, and for many, Linux might as well be like learning to write in Chinese. Who wrote it is not the issue. How it works and how well it works to benefit the (Ham) community is.

Sorry for the storybook,? just had to vent.

73
Greg
KE5DXA?

Well guys, I will say I've enjoyed the banter. I've got to say though, I am kinda looking at things from the right field as the game is played.

I started back in the 80's with twin-ax, dumb terminals, Z80 processors, and IBM 34/36 Mainframes, and my only worry was did the hardware work. I was the tech with the engineering degree, who came to fix it. I didn't just swap out parts, I figured out what was wrong. Dealing with software was always (half the time anyway) the culprit of why things didn't work. I needed to learn the program's mistakes and failures on why the hardware stopped working. Was it cabling, the computer, or the device? Nope, usually the software. With Unix, I even needed to learn the print commands and mounting of devices, just like on the mainframe. Then enter DOS, and doing things with Edlin. It served me well, then Windows came along. Those damn software drivers always were the culprit. (Unless someone didn't change the Com port jumpers). In the tech world, I always heard, that once the software was written and released, it was already outdated and need a revision. How true that was. How many decades ago was that?

So 20+yrs ago, I changed my field of work. Hoping to get aways from the crazy diagnosing of computer issues, and entered the real estate world. Paper forms and contracts, binders of listings that got updated by taking out pages and replacing them with new ones, and using folding maps to getting around town. No more computers and pagers. Ham radio was just a spin of the dial or entering numbers into the keypad on my vx-5r. (BTW, I also have my 1st class GROL). Life was good. Then the Realtor world got into computing and doing things with computers again and online access. Ugh, I wanted away from troubleshooting software problems but yet here I am. It got easier to do the work but more complicated at the same time. Then for me, there came along packet and BBS nodes for my ham adventures. Oh my, I'm back to my BBS days and using a dial-up modem. Okay, I've got this. As long as I could stop Windows from changing my working drivers and still run some DOS based software, I was pretty stable. But programmers of Windows and other programs [still] couldn't leave well enough alone. Always needing to release an update. What for? Everything was working fine before some software guy decided he needed job security in a never ending quest for a program without bugs and glitches.

So I decided, hey let's give this RPi thing a try. Everyone is saying how great it is now and much more stable than Windows it was and it doesn't crash. Well guess what??? The thing does crash. Not because of a hardware issue, no it due to software updates, just like Windows in a way. No, it's not the OS, it's the application that causes the crashes. It's a good thing I still have a full head of hair so I can keep pulling some out. These software issues are SO frustrating.

I'm not fluent in Linux, it's still a foreign language. But like Spanish, I know enough to order a beer or get my face slapped. I know, I just need learn (both) more. I don't know about all the flavors of Linux out there, the distros, and all what's available. I'm lucky enough just to get the thing booted and accessed headless.

So when you talk about the issues or so many versions or builders out there, it's just words to the old, but new users to the Linux world. I just want it to work and have someone to contact to ask why I can't get it to ____. After I've said a few !@#$%& words of frustration of course. If someone can write a better [mouse] program, or has the time to write it, I applaud their efforts. But do some R&D testing. I'm tired of being the guinea pig to see if it works. I just want it to work like it's designed to. I follow these IO forums for tidbits of wisdom from folks that know the ins and outs better than I do at this point, and to help me get up to speed without wiping it all and starting over with a fresh install again [for the 10th time].

What if we had to constantly fix our houses due to issues, it would be a money pit. What if we had to constantly fix our car because it was one thing after another that broke, we'd get rid of it. I think people would be more attracted to Linux/RPi and it's features, especially for Ham, if it was more of a one and done thing. Just turn it on and it just runs. I don't care who built it, just build it right.

I see the blank stares in the eyes of some hams with even the mention of Linux and RPi or even some of the modes like packet, JS8call or JT65. They've got no clue. We should work to bring this hobby together, maybe with better instructions on how to use it and set it up. Yeah, YouTube is full of people that like to ramble and hear themselves talk just to say "I made a video". But they are all shouting, yet few can get that hands on step-by-step guidance they need. Many hams aren't computer or windows efficient, and for many, Linux might as well be like learning to write in Chinese. Who wrote it is not the issue. How it works and how well it works to benefit the (Ham) community is.

Sorry for the storybook,? just had to vent.

73
Greg
KE5DXA?

On May 29, 2023, at 2:01 PM, Jerry Rector - K4OAM <kb4oam@...> wrote:

?

My goof....last two messages were to be send directlt yo Mark...not to the group.

Jerry

On May 29, 2023, at 10:53 AM, Peter McC via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:

?kOK, Guys. Lets stand down here. We don’t need another list full of altercations,

?- 73, Peter K2SPR

On May 29, 2023, at 7:21 AM, Kelly K7MHI via groups.io <kellykeeton@...> wrote:

Nigel, don’t think your stiff comments “works that way” either like another apt repository key. A web comic would have been better to lead with not double down on, your about 60 years too late to advise on the future of the Linus OS and it’s 100+ distributions??

You changed the course of history with your sour grapes here? Or just pleased your self so we remember your still here to correct us with your wisdom? you even using a pi these days or switch to azure Linux??

kelly?

On May 29, 2023, at 7:21 AM, Kelly K7MHI via groups.io <kellykeeton@...> wrote:

Nigel, don’t think your stiff comments “works that way” either like another apt repository key. A web comic would have been better to lead with not double down on, your about 60 years too late to advise on the future of the Linus OS and it’s 100+ distributions??

You changed the course of history with your sour grapes here? Or just pleased your self so we remember your still here to correct us with your wisdom? you even using a pi these days or switch to azure Linux??

kelly?

Hurt what? We have more installation methods than we need that are causing people confusion. We need ONE installer that is comprehensive and works with ALL Linux systems that can be understood by all users.

Hurt what? We have more installation methods than we need that are causing people confusion. We need ONE installer that is comprehensive and works with ALL Linux systems that can be understood by all users.


 On 28/05/2023 15:06 EDT Jerry Rector - K4OAM <kb4oam@...> wrote:
 
 
 I have to whole-heartedly agree with Kelly and Jay....emails such as Nigel's hurt, rather than help the hobby.

Jerry,
?? You are so correct. Discouraging one? might cause others to shy away from forward thinking or thinking out of the box. He should of found out from the question why and help with explaining their view on how easy iy was with him and give directions how he did it. This is my 2 cents worth.
--
Allen Higgins
Brunswick, Ohio
KE8KZO