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David-

I live a few miles from you so let me know when you want to go.

Bob Chaparro
Owner-Moderator
Mission Viejo, CA
949-770-5158

Has anybody been to the San Juan Capistrano historical Society

to

see what they have? they do have some old train pictures but I

have

no idea how extensive it is or how much they have on railroading

in

the early days of SJC. I'll be going there soon to look into what
they may have in anyone is interested?
David


--- In citrusmodeling@..., kapa@g... wrote:

Hi list,

I'm new to this list and want to introduce myself. Some people

on

this

list may know me already from the different Santa Fe list.

My name is Alain Kap and I live in Luxembourg, Europe. I'm

modeling

different Santa Fe locations and structures for my layout and my

modules,

some also for fun or challenge. As Southern California is one of

my main

places of interest, I cannot come by the citrus industry and its

related

facilities.

One project I'm in currently is the depot of Capistrano and its
surrounding buildings/industries etc. South of the depot is what

I

suppose

a packing house. I could not locate any information or picture

about what

kind of brand it packed (Sunkist or ????). On a photo I think to

see 2

reefers side by side. How was the track arrangement at the

packing

house,

siding, stub ended tracks. What did the packing house look like.

I

will

only need a track side shot as space considerations limit it to

a

half

relief building.

Packing Houses usually had large Signs of their brandnames

painted

on the

building. Are there any of these signs available that are

suitable

to

print out and apply to a model structure. I'm particularly

thinking of the

Sunkist sign.

Any help will be appreciated.

Alain KAP
Luxembourg

I have been living in San Juan Capistrano since 1968. I remember
the depot as two buildings, the main passenger building, a freight
house separated by a parking lot, There was a main track and a
siding that went in front of the depot. There were more orange
groves at that time than there are now, I think I remember a wind
machine or two and I think one may still be there, I'll look and
take a photo, smudge pots were also used. Just south of the depot
where the parking structure is now was a building being used as a
building supply company that caught firs in the 1970's. That
building reminded me that it could have been used as a packing house
at one time.

Has anybody been to the San Juan Capistrano historical Society to
see what they have? they do have some old train pictures but I have
no idea how extensive it is or how much they have on railroading in
the early days of SJC. I'll be going there soon to look into what
they may have in anyone is interested?
David


--- In citrusmodeling@..., kapa@g... wrote:

Hi list,

I'm new to this list and want to introduce myself. Some people on

this

list may know me already from the different Santa Fe list.

My name is Alain Kap and I live in Luxembourg, Europe. I'm modeling
different Santa Fe locations and structures for my layout and my

modules,

some also for fun or challenge. As Southern California is one of

my main

places of interest, I cannot come by the citrus industry and its

related

facilities.

One project I'm in currently is the depot of Capistrano and its
surrounding buildings/industries etc. South of the depot is what I

suppose

a packing house. I could not locate any information or picture

about what

kind of brand it packed (Sunkist or ????). On a photo I think to

see 2

reefers side by side. How was the track arrangement at the packing

house,

siding, stub ended tracks. What did the packing house look like. I

will

only need a track side shot as space considerations limit it to a

half

relief building.

Packing Houses usually had large Signs of their brandnames painted

on the

building. Are there any of these signs available that are suitable

to

print out and apply to a model structure. I'm particularly

thinking of the

Sunkist sign.

Any help will be appreciated.

Alain KAP
Luxembourg

I have the following data from a California agriculture publication
from the 1950s which I converted to HO scale measurements:

Full Size HO
Feet Inches
Tree Spacing, Rows 22 3.03
Tree Spacing, Within Rows 20 2.76

In addition I ran across the following:


Citrus Tree Spacing
June 1994
D.P.H. Tucker, T.A. Wheaton and R. P. Muraro

SPACING AND LAND USAGE
There is a worldwide trend in citrus culture
toward higher density plantings encompassing a wide
assortment of variety/rootstock and tree spacing
combinations. Over the past two decades in Florida
there has been an increased level of interest in
establishing more trees per acre in higher density
plantings. The average spacing between rows of
about 25 ft has remained relatively constant since
1900 (Figure 1). Spacing in the row, however,
decreased gradually during the first half century, and
then more abruptly with the extensive new plantings
of the 1960's. This trend has continued with an
average spacing for oranges planted in 1987 of 25.9 ft
between rows and 14.6 ft in the row, providing 115
trees per acre. The move toward higher planting
densities was partially the result of an intensified
constraints on growers of tree crops due to reduced
land and water availability, more stringent land use
regulations, the desire for earlier economic return on
investment and a need for increased management
efficiency.
Most of what was considered the most suitable
citrus land located in the north and central ridge
areas on deep, well-drained sandy soils had already
been planted and was in production prior to the
freezes of the 1980's. As such land became less
available and the freezes of 1962, 1983, 1985 and 1989
severely damaged or killed citrus in these areas, many
new plantings were established in south central,
southwest and east coast locations with predominantly
shallow, poorly drained soils. Contrary to early
thinking, citrus grew and produced well with good
drainage and irrigation management.

--- In citrusmodeling@..., "Garth Ponsonby"
<g_ponsonby@y...> wrote:

Hi,

A question from the UK, please.

I am modelling an orange grove next to a Santa Fe line in Southern
California, but need some info on how the trees were planted in

the

1950s and 1960s. Seems to me from photos there were at least two
different methods:

1. close together with no grass between, and no room for tractors
with
trailers.

2. relatively wide apart, often grass between trees, and

sufficient

room for vehicles.

Are there any other variations, and which is most representative?

TIA.

Garth Ponsonby
UK

Hi,

A question from the UK, please.

I am modelling an orange grove next to a Santa Fe line in Southern
California, but need some info on how the trees were planted in the
1950s and 1960s. Seems to me from photos there were at least two
different methods:

1. close together with no grass between, and no room for tractors
with
trailers.

2. relatively wide apart, often grass between trees, and sufficient
room for vehicles.

Are there any other variations, and which is most representative?

TIA.

Garth Ponsonby
UK

I'd rather not expand the group's scope beyond Southern California
and the three major railroads (plus PE) that served the local
industry.

I would be happy to share anything I have or come across with anyone
doing a Florida or Texas citrus group.

Bob Chaparro
Owner-Moderator

--- In citrusmodeling@..., "Ben Woelk" <fbw1957@h...>
wrote:

Any thought to extending the scope to Florida citrus operations

such

as Tropicana?

Ben
Fairport, NY (Florida native)

These drawings appeared in the "Built In America" section of their
files. A search on their site using "National Orange Packing" took
me right to it.

Good luck.

Bob Chaparro
Owner-Moderator

--- In citrusmodeling@..., pepperkay@a... wrote:

Hi Jim:

Under what section of the American Memory site from the Library of

Congress

did you find the photos and track diagrams for the packing

house ?? ...

Thanks,

Pepper

Any thought to extending the scope to Florida citrus operations such
as Tropicana?

Ben
Fairport, NY (Florida native)

Is it appropriate to discuss ATSF reefers on this list?

Glad to see you with us.

Discussions on these reefers (or PFE for that matter) are quite
appropriate for this group.

Yahoo has several Santa Fe, SP and UP groups which would be better
places for discussions of other types of cars, plus this group's
links include links to the historical societies for these railroads.

Bob Chaparro
Owner-Moderator.

Paul-

This model and an image are featured in this group's files section
on the "Models and > Supplies" list. This list takes a bit of time
to download due to the images so be patient.

I will say the footprint is quite large. The Library of Congress
website has drawings of this structure and you can calculate the
scale footprint of the building from the drawings.

And thanks again for that wonderful presentation on the railroads
last September at the PSR Cobvention in Glendale.

Bob Chaparro
Group Owner & Moderator
(also PSR/NMRA Layout Coordinator)

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Some of you may be wondering what happened to Yesteryear's model of
the National Orange Company packing house once located in Riverside,
Calif.? The model has been advertised a few times in the hobby press
but never seems to appear on Yesteryear's website.? This model (and
an image) is listed in this group's files section on the "Models and
Supplies" list.

First of all, models actually have been produced and sold in recent
months.? Mike Aldridge of the Orange County Module Railroaders
built one for his module.? I hope to have a photo of the module on
this site very soon.?

I talked with a representative of Yesteryear at the World's Greatest
Hobby Show this weekend.? She told me they are somewhat at the mercy
of Intermountain, who actually makes the HO and N-scale kits of this
model.? Intermountain is going strong with a lot of kits so these
particular kits compete for production time.

Yesteryear hopes to have more kits of this model in the coming
months and when they do, they will be put on the website and offered
for sale.

Bob Chaparro
Mission Viejo, CA






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Please show respect and consideration for other points of view in your replies.

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I reviewed the InterMountain HO scale Santa Fe refrigerator cars when they were first introduced, in the March 1996 "Model Railroader," pages 40-42. They were quite good then and they're even a little better now.

Note that they carry "SFRD" reporting marks, as is correct for Santa Fe Refrigerator Department, not "ATSF." In car clerks' and switchmen's shorthand they were often just "RDs."

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@...

Is it appropriate to discuss ATSF reefers on this list? I'm looking
for someone who can speak about, or direct me to good information
regarding, the accuracy of the Intermountain HO scale ATSF reefers.
(I haven't bought any yet.)

If this is the wrong list for this subject (I see rolling stock has
been conspicuously ignored so far), I apologize.


Thanks,

Jack P.






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Please show respect and consideration for other points of view in your replies.

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
citrusmodeling-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...
310 Loma Verde Street
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883

---

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents -

Is it appropriate to discuss ATSF reefers on this list? I'm looking
for someone who can speak about, or direct me to good information
regarding, the accuracy of the Intermountain HO scale ATSF reefers.
(I haven't bought any yet.)

If this is the wrong list for this subject (I see rolling stock has
been conspicuously ignored so far), I apologize.


Thanks,

Jack P.

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Hi Jim:

?

Under what section of the American Memory site from the Library of Congress did you find the photos and track diagrams for the packing house ?? ...

?

Thanks,

?

Pepper

I am currently finishing the Yesteryear kit "National Orange
Packing", which I purchased last year...
I lived for 50 years near the beach in the Los Angeles area just
south of LAX, and last year moved to a small town just west of
Indianapolis.

I first became interested in modeling Southern California as a way
of staying with my life in California, and having met Bob Smaus,
remembered his articles on modeling various aspects of the citrus
industry, including the area around Fillmore, CA, which my wife and
I visited many times while teaching geology.

Using the 'net, I found the Library of Congress American Memory site
about the National Orange Packing Plant, and after reading its
history, discovered that in 1928 Louis Crowell (relation? who knows?
but totally cool just the same) purchased it for $800,000. With
that piece of information, I just had to build it, and after
downloading all the diagrams from the 'net, planned on
scratchbuilding it.

When I saw the advertisement for the building, at just twice what I
figured it would cost to scratch, I knew I had to have it, and
called to order it... it came about a month later, as was explained,
due to the Intermountain delays.

Since I wanted to build the complete building, I took the back of
the kit and moved it to the right side, now producing a building
twice the length with half the depth, still about six inches deep
and since it was going against the wall at eye level, just fine for
me.

The kit went together practically by itself, a true testament to the
design of the kit. I decided to use my own computer designed
tarpaper for the original building, while using corrugated metal for
the addition (1928).

Using the National Orange crate label, I sized it with the computer
to what looked right, pasted it up about 500 times, and used a laser
color printer to produce two pages of color labels, which I then
glued to wood which went inside the building representing hundreds
of boxes ready to be loaded. I have produced in similar manner
several other label designs from the 'net, and plan on using them
for a couple of other packing plants.

Using the American Memory site, I printed out the location plan for
the track and surrounding buildings, as well as the location of
several orange groves and streets in the Riverside area and plan on
loosely following the diagrams to create my scene.

Incidently, I found a new good friend back in Los Angeles, who is
also building the kit, and have been corresponding almost daily with
him on life in general, and model railroading in particular.

I wholeheartedly am satisfied with this kit, and recommend it to
anyone who is looking for a real, historic southern Calfornia citrus
packing plant.

Jim Crowell
just west of Indy