|
Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
How old does FTDNA say your haplogroup is? If it's on the order of 1000 or more years old, that isn't unusual, I think.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 11:16 AM, Michael Primm <mrprimm53@...> wrote: Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
Hi Mike- Can you elaborate a bit on this? Like, (1) how many GD:3 or closer Y111 matches do/did you have? ? So you’d like to find out who your 3rd great-great was. If that ancestor is MRCA with another tester, you are talking about 4th cousins. How many male cousins does one expect at that level?? How many of those still living?? How many of those willing or interested to test? Think 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th cousins----one or more of these generations may have no other surviving male lines. ? In my case (why I’m an expert, hah! J ), if I only took a BigY test, I would have ZERO Y-matches with anyone I am known to be related to. And I have brothers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th cousins that are known…none either knew about or were interested in Y-tests.? My cousins and father simply didn’t know about it. But I had Y111GD:3 STR matches with very distant matches and after Y500 tests, we knew which SNPs to test for to confirm father’s lines. So I began testing for SNPs only on cousins---first my father, then a 1st cousin, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and then a 7th cousin 1x removed. ?Only 2 of these people I knew. The further back you can confirm your father’s line on your known tree, the better. Testing for a single SNP is cheap and quick at YSEQ---you don’t have to wait for weeks or months for the answer. But none of this will get you what you want to know unfortunately unless your BigY matches are close enough related to build a theory of who your 3rd gg was. I am at this point myself now. I have tested and confirmed my father’s line back to the furthest known male ancestor who had more than 1 known son that we can trace a father’s line that survived. And document trails back before this (mid-1600’s) are sketchy at best. I have several fairly close BigY matches but all of these trace ancestries a couple hundred miles north. And all of them share a MRCA with me that was missing the 2 SNPs that my 7th cousin and I share. So there could easily be 100-200 years or so of ancestors before that ancestor in 1654 to get to those other lines. ? Let’s say your 3gr-gf was born about 1830. ?And let’s say your nearest BigY matches show up on the Block Tree with an average of just 4 Private SNPs (PVs) each. First estimate is that this is about 330 years before 1960 or so to common ancestor---i.e. about 1630AD. But it could be MUCH further back. My 7th cousin 1x removed and I each have 2 PVs since our MRCA born in 1654.? That’s about 300 years to each of our births and just 2 PVs each: 150years per SNP. But SNPs can happen quickly also---from SNP tests of cousins, I know that BOTH of my 2 SNPs occurred with my father! None of this is linear. ? Your 3rd gr-gf was not born that far back in time. Your best bet is to spend a LOT of time looking at autosomal matches to find matches with ancestries that point to clues. Then develop some possible theories and candidate ancestors and find possible male lines with living males to test (facebook helps here), then reach out to them. I’ve never been rejected when I’ve asked for participation with distant cousins to test---even tested a 9th cousin for MTDNA that confirmed mother’s line back to 1640. ? Anyway, hope this helps. ? -Myles Twete ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael Primm
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts ? Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
Rich, My haplogroup is R-FTE39986 which goes back to 1450 ce. I got 6 matches, none on the BigY, just 111. I don't recognize any of the names, or if they have trees, none of the names in the trees. Myles, I guess I'm in for some searching.
Thanks,
Mike
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
How old does FTDNA say your haplogroup is? If it's on the order of 1000 or more years old, that isn't unusual, I think.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 11:16 AM, Michael Primm
<mrprimm53@...> wrote:
Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are
in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years
of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
There is a natural tendency within this group to generalise based on everyone’s personal experiences – with a few exceptions, of course.
?
When I began all this seriously, in early 2006, I read carefully some key chapters in Chris Pomery’s book “DNA and Family History” from 2004.
?
In that, he advocated you should start by testing two male “cousins” who shared a common male ancestor living about 200 years ago.
?
So, I could argue all we have ever been doing since is refining this basic methodology to generate branch patterns today which look like the paper family trees available back
in 2004/6.
?
And you never know when the statistics of mutational changes in the DNA structure will work in your favour or against you.
?
We have one major Swann line in Maryland, with three living brothers from the gateway ancestor who arrived there by 1653/4, who all had male descendants for the next 2-3 generations
with the same Christian names, more or less - so a nightmare to disentangle several of the branches, until BigY-700 came along. Some of the Y-SNPs uncovered have been really useful to identify certain male lines unambiguously.
?
But my main collaborator on all this in America, had no SNPs to identify a distinct SNP for his own line, beyond one we could date to a transmission event happening in the first
generation - about 1673.? Eventually, he tested his son, and did get a SNP, which he thinks now might date to his grandfather being conceived. Altogether, that was 7 generations from the 1673 SNP down to him.? So, we asked Iain what were the odds on this non-mutational
event happening.? He said it was uncommon and estimated that over 7 generations it was in the order of 2-3%.
?
But if we had just tested a few people, we would have come away with a false impression just how useful BigY-700 testing can be.
?
All we are doing is uncovering this truth for ourselves now, in a series of endless repeats.? And gradually it will merge into the background noise of family history and become
one of those things that if you have men around, you need to spend the money – and Ancestry cannot deliver this for you no matter how much money they spend on TV advertising and program making.
?
Brian
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 4:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Hi Mike
?
Can you elaborate a bit on this?
?
Like, (1) how many GD:3 or closer Y111 matches do/did you have?
?
So you’d like to find out who your 3rd great-great was.
?
If that ancestor is MRCA with another tester, you are talking about 4th cousins.
?
How many male cousins does one expect at that level?? How many of those still living?? How many of those willing or interested to test?
?
Think 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th cousins----one or more of these generations may have no other surviving male lines.
?
In my case (why I’m an expert, hah! J ), if I only took a BigY test, I would have ZERO Y-matches with anyone I am known to be related to.
?
And I have brothers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th cousins that are known…none either knew about or were interested in Y-tests.? My cousins and father simply didn’t
know about it.
?
But I had Y111GD:3 STR matches with very distant matches and after Y500 tests, we knew which SNPs to test for to confirm father’s lines.
?
So I began testing for SNPs only on cousins---first my father, then a 1st cousin, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and then a 7th cousin 1x removed. ?Only 2 of these people I knew.
?
The further back you can confirm your father’s line on your known tree, the better.
?
Testing for a single SNP is cheap and quick at YSEQ---you don’t have to wait for weeks or months for the answer.
?
But none of this will get you what you want to know unfortunately unless your BigY matches are close enough related to build a theory of who your 3rd gg was.
?
I am at this point myself now.
?
I have tested and confirmed my father’s line back to the furthest known male ancestor who had more than 1 known son that we can trace a father’s line that survived.
?
And document trails back before this (mid-1600’s) are sketchy at best.
?
I have several fairly close BigY matches but all of these trace ancestries a couple hundred miles north.
?
And all of them share a MRCA with me that was missing the 2 SNPs that my 7th cousin and I share.
?
So there could easily be 100-200 years or so of ancestors before that ancestor in 1654 to get to those other lines.
?
Let’s say your 3gr-gf was born about 1830. ?And let’s say your nearest BigY matches show up on the Block Tree with an average of just 4 Private SNPs (PVs) each.
?
First estimate is that this is about 330 years before 1960 or so to common ancestor---i.e. about 1630AD.
?
But it could be MUCH further back.
?
My 7th cousin 1x removed and I each have 2 PVs since our MRCA born in 1654.? That’s about 300 years to each of our births and just 2 PVs each: 150years per SNP.
?
But SNPs can happen quickly also---from SNP tests of cousins, I know that BOTH of my 2 SNPs occurred with my father!
?
None of this is linear.
?
Your 3rd gr-gf was not born that far back in time.
?
Your best bet is to spend a LOT of time looking at autosomal matches to find matches with ancestries that point to clues.
?
Then develop some possible theories and candidate ancestors and find possible male lines with living males to test (facebook helps here), then reach out to them.
?
I’ve never been rejected when I’ve asked for participation with distant cousins to test---even tested a 9th cousin for MTDNA that confirmed mother’s line back to 1640.
?
Anyway, hope this helps.
?
-Myles Twete
?
From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Michael Primm
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are
in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years
of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
Brian,? I have a similar situation. My terminal haplogroup is FGC11677. I found a 4th cousin of my father whose common ancestor was my 5th great grandfather born in 1776. When his big y results posted, it wiped away all of my private variants.?
Later on, I found a male from my 7th great grandfather. He is positive for all of my SNPs except FGC11677.?
FGC11677 has to be either my 5th or 6th great grandfather.?
Having tested WGS elsewhere, I know the lack of private variants in my big y test is not because of a few SNPs with coverage under the reporting threshold (10 reads?).?
So, it happens like that sometimes!?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 27, 2024, at 2:12?PM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
?
There is a natural tendency within this group to generalise based on everyone’s personal experiences – with a few exceptions, of course.
?
When I began all this seriously, in early 2006, I read carefully some key chapters in Chris Pomery’s book “DNA and Family History” from 2004.
?
In that, he advocated you should start by testing two male “cousins” who shared a common male ancestor living about 200 years ago.
?
So, I could argue all we have ever been doing since is refining this basic methodology to generate branch patterns today which look like the paper family trees available back
in 2004/6.
?
And you never know when the statistics of mutational changes in the DNA structure will work in your favour or against you.
?
We have one major Swann line in Maryland, with three living brothers from the gateway ancestor who arrived there by 1653/4, who all had male descendants for the next 2-3 generations
with the same Christian names, more or less - so a nightmare to disentangle several of the branches, until BigY-700 came along. Some of the Y-SNPs uncovered have been really useful to identify certain male lines unambiguously.
?
But my main collaborator on all this in America, had no SNPs to identify a distinct SNP for his own line, beyond one we could date to a transmission event happening in the first
generation - about 1673.? Eventually, he tested his son, and did get a SNP, which he thinks now might date to his grandfather being conceived. Altogether, that was 7 generations from the 1673 SNP down to him.? So, we asked Iain what were the odds on this non-mutational
event happening.? He said it was uncommon and estimated that over 7 generations it was in the order of 2-3%.
?
But if we had just tested a few people, we would have come away with a false impression just how useful BigY-700 testing can be.
?
All we are doing is uncovering this truth for ourselves now, in a series of endless repeats.? And gradually it will merge into the background noise of family history and become
one of those things that if you have men around, you need to spend the money – and Ancestry cannot deliver this for you no matter how much money they spend on TV advertising and program making.
?
Brian
?
?
Hi Mike
?
Can you elaborate a bit on this?
?
Like, (1) how many GD:3 or closer Y111 matches do/did you have?
?
So you’d like to find out who your 3rd great-great was.
?
If that ancestor is MRCA with another tester, you are talking about 4th cousins.
?
How many male cousins does one expect at that level?? How many of those still living?? How many of those willing or interested to test?
?
Think 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th cousins----one or more of these generations may have no other surviving male lines.
?
In my case (why I’m an expert, hah! J ), if I only took a BigY test, I would have ZERO Y-matches with anyone I am known to be related to.
?
And I have brothers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th cousins that are known…none either knew about or were interested in Y-tests.? My cousins and father simply didn’t
know about it.
?
But I had Y111GD:3 STR matches with very distant matches and after Y500 tests, we knew which SNPs to test for to confirm father’s lines.
?
So I began testing for SNPs only on cousins---first my father, then a 1st cousin, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and then a 7th cousin 1x removed. ?Only 2 of these people I knew.
?
The further back you can confirm your father’s line on your known tree, the better.
?
Testing for a single SNP is cheap and quick at YSEQ---you don’t have to wait for weeks or months for the answer.
?
But none of this will get you what you want to know unfortunately unless your BigY matches are close enough related to build a theory of who your 3rd gg was.
?
I am at this point myself now.
?
I have tested and confirmed my father’s line back to the furthest known male ancestor who had more than 1 known son that we can trace a father’s line that survived.
?
And document trails back before this (mid-1600’s) are sketchy at best.
?
I have several fairly close BigY matches but all of these trace ancestries a couple hundred miles north.
?
And all of them share a MRCA with me that was missing the 2 SNPs that my 7th cousin and I share.
?
So there could easily be 100-200 years or so of ancestors before that ancestor in 1654 to get to those other lines.
?
Let’s say your 3gr-gf was born about 1830. ?And let’s say your nearest BigY matches show up on the Block Tree with an average of just 4 Private SNPs (PVs) each.
?
First estimate is that this is about 330 years before 1960 or so to common ancestor---i.e. about 1630AD.
?
But it could be MUCH further back.
?
My 7th cousin 1x removed and I each have 2 PVs since our MRCA born in 1654.? That’s about 300 years to each of our births and just 2 PVs each: 150years per SNP.
?
But SNPs can happen quickly also---from SNP tests of cousins, I know that BOTH of my 2 SNPs occurred with my father!
?
None of this is linear.
?
Your 3rd gr-gf was not born that far back in time.
?
Your best bet is to spend a LOT of time looking at autosomal matches to find matches with ancestries that point to clues.
?
Then develop some possible theories and candidate ancestors and find possible male lines with living males to test (facebook helps here), then reach out to them.
?
I’ve never been rejected when I’ve asked for participation with distant cousins to test---even tested a 9th cousin for MTDNA that confirmed mother’s line back to 1640.
?
Anyway, hope this helps.
?
-Myles Twete
?
From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Michael Primm
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are
in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years
of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
Interesting that 2-3% is the probability that there would be zero SNP for over 7 generations. In my case, from MRCA (with my 7c1x with BigY results) to my grandfather is exactly 7 generations. Then, the next generation, my father, we see not just 1 SNP but 2 SNPs in that generation. Seems like a doubly-improbable series of events… 2% likelihood to go that long without, followed by another improbable event of 2 SNPs in the same generation. I’m guessing that all this really does is put the overall probability (2 SNPs in 8 generation) at 1 SNP per 4 generations which is not so improbable. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian Swann
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts? There is a natural tendency within this group to generalise based on everyone’s personal experiences – with a few exceptions, of course. ? When I began all this seriously, in early 2006, I read carefully some key chapters in Chris Pomery’s book “DNA and Family History” from 2004. ? In that, he advocated you should start by testing two male “cousins” who shared a common male ancestor living about 200 years ago. ? So, I could argue all we have ever been doing since is refining this basic methodology to generate branch patterns today which look like the paper family trees available back in 2004/6. ? And you never know when the statistics of mutational changes in the DNA structure will work in your favour or against you. ? We have one major Swann line in Maryland, with three living brothers from the gateway ancestor who arrived there by 1653/4, who all had male descendants for the next 2-3 generations with the same Christian names, more or less - so a nightmare to disentangle several of the branches, until BigY-700 came along. Some of the Y-SNPs uncovered have been really useful to identify certain male lines unambiguously. ? But my main collaborator on all this in America, had no SNPs to identify a distinct SNP for his own line, beyond one we could date to a transmission event happening in the first generation - about 1673.? Eventually, he tested his son, and did get a SNP, which he thinks now might date to his grandfather being conceived. Altogether, that was 7 generations from the 1673 SNP down to him.? So, we asked Iain what were the odds on this non-mutational event happening.? He said it was uncommon and estimated that over 7 generations it was in the order of 2-3%. ? But if we had just tested a few people, we would have come away with a false impression just how useful BigY-700 testing can be. ? All we are doing is uncovering this truth for ourselves now, in a series of endless repeats.? And gradually it will merge into the background noise of family history and become one of those things that if you have men around, you need to spend the money – and Ancestry cannot deliver this for you no matter how much money they spend on TV advertising and program making. ? Brian ? ? Hi Mike ? Can you elaborate a bit on this? ? Like, (1) how many GD:3 or closer Y111 matches do/did you have? ? So you’d like to find out who your 3rd great-great was. ? If that ancestor is MRCA with another tester, you are talking about 4th cousins. ? How many male cousins does one expect at that level?? How many of those still living?? How many of those willing or interested to test? ? Think 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th cousins----one or more of these generations may have no other surviving male lines. ? In my case (why I’m an expert, hah! J ), if I only took a BigY test, I would have ZERO Y-matches with anyone I am known to be related to. ? And I have brothers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th cousins that are known…none either knew about or were interested in Y-tests.? My cousins and father simply didn’t know about it. ? But I had Y111GD:3 STR matches with very distant matches and after Y500 tests, we knew which SNPs to test for to confirm father’s lines. ? So I began testing for SNPs only on cousins---first my father, then a 1st cousin, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and then a 7th cousin 1x removed. ?Only 2 of these people I knew. ? The further back you can confirm your father’s line on your known tree, the better. ? Testing for a single SNP is cheap and quick at YSEQ---you don’t have to wait for weeks or months for the answer. ? But none of this will get you what you want to know unfortunately unless your BigY matches are close enough related to build a theory of who your 3rd gg was. ? I am at this point myself now. ? I have tested and confirmed my father’s line back to the furthest known male ancestor who had more than 1 known son that we can trace a father’s line that survived. ? And document trails back before this (mid-1600’s) are sketchy at best. ? I have several fairly close BigY matches but all of these trace ancestries a couple hundred miles north. ? And all of them share a MRCA with me that was missing the 2 SNPs that my 7th cousin and I share. ? So there could easily be 100-200 years or so of ancestors before that ancestor in 1654 to get to those other lines. ? Let’s say your 3gr-gf was born about 1830. ?And let’s say your nearest BigY matches show up on the Block Tree with an average of just 4 Private SNPs (PVs) each. ? First estimate is that this is about 330 years before 1960 or so to common ancestor---i.e. about 1630AD. ? But it could be MUCH further back. ? My 7th cousin 1x removed and I each have 2 PVs since our MRCA born in 1654.? That’s about 300 years to each of our births and just 2 PVs each: 150years per SNP. ? But SNPs can happen quickly also---from SNP tests of cousins, I know that BOTH of my 2 SNPs occurred with my father! ? None of this is linear. ? Your 3rd gr-gf was not born that far back in time. ? Your best bet is to spend a LOT of time looking at autosomal matches to find matches with ancestries that point to clues. ? Then develop some possible theories and candidate ancestors and find possible male lines with living males to test (facebook helps here), then reach out to them. ? I’ve never been rejected when I’ve asked for participation with distant cousins to test---even tested a 9th cousin for MTDNA that confirmed mother’s line back to 1640. ? Anyway, hope this helps. ? -Myles Twete ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael Primm
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts ? Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
I find it interesting when you actually start to get into the details of how these mutations actually must happen in the DNA copying process.
?
Most folk, but not all, do not understand enough cell and molecular biology to say anything useful beyond the fact it is “all very complicated”.
?
But there are books written on this, and enough scientists have thought about it in quite considerable detail, and it is still very much an active area of research.
?
Does it help you do family history of your ancestors [?] – probably not. But I am intrigued by how DNA gets stored, copied and repaired for real within cells – and how does the
cell cope with repair mechanisms for the X- and Y- chromosomes.
?
------------------
?
We sort of know that from our experiences with STR values on the Y Chromosome.? There is clearly an upper and lower limit for each STR marker beyond which the cell can start
to sense that something is not quite right, so will presumably cut out and/or repair those mutations if they get too far out of acceptable range, even if they have no obvious biological function.? But it might start to affect how the Y-DNA can interact with
its associated histones and chromatin to be stored effectively in 3-D space inside the nucleosome.
?
And if this all gets too much for you – I really recommend looking at some of the animated models made by the group operating out of the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute in Australia,
led by Drew Berry.? Use WEHI to search for this on YouTube. They use similar animated techniques to cover some of the more complex parts of cell biology / biochemistry.
?
Your Body’s Molecular Machines – 6 years old, 6.21 mins.
?
However, recently, there has been some disagreement that some this approach.
?
How NOT To Think About Cells – 1 year old, 9.33 mins.
?
So, you always need to be critical, but there is no denying that this type of animation helps understand some very complex cell biology.
?
Brian
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Robert McMillan via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Brian
?
I have a similar situation. My terminal haplogroup is FGC11677. I found a 4th cousin of my father whose common ancestor was my 5th great grandfather born in 1776. When his big y results posted, it wiped away all of my private variants.?
Later on, I found a male from my 7th great grandfather. He is positive for all of my SNPs except FGC11677.?
FGC11677 has to be either my 5th or 6th great grandfather.?
Having tested WGS elsewhere, I know the lack of private variants in my big y test is not because of a few SNPs with coverage under the reporting threshold (10 reads?).?
So, it happens like that sometimes!?
?There is a natural tendency within this group to generalise based on everyone’s personal experiences – with a few exceptions, of course.
?
When I began all this seriously, in early 2006, I read carefully some key chapters in Chris Pomery’s book “DNA and Family History” from 2004.
?
In that, he advocated you should start by testing two male “cousins” who shared a common male ancestor living about 200 years ago.
?
So, I could argue all we have ever been doing since is refining this basic methodology to generate branch patterns today which look like the paper family trees available back in 2004/6.
?
And you never know when the statistics of mutational changes in the DNA structure will work in your favour or against you.
?
We have one major Swann line in Maryland, with three living brothers from the gateway ancestor who arrived there by 1653/4, who all had male descendants for the next 2-3 generations with the same Christian names, more or less - so a nightmare
to disentangle several of the branches, until BigY-700 came along. Some of the Y-SNPs uncovered have been really useful to identify certain male lines unambiguously.
?
But my main collaborator on all this in America, had no SNPs to identify a distinct SNP for his own line, beyond one we could date to a transmission event happening in the first generation - about 1673.? Eventually, he tested his son, and
did get a SNP, which he thinks now might date to his grandfather being conceived. Altogether, that was 7 generations from the 1673 SNP down to him.? So, we asked Iain what were the odds on this non-mutational event happening.? He said it was uncommon and estimated
that over 7 generations it was in the order of 2-3%.
?
But if we had just tested a few people, we would have come away with a false impression just how useful BigY-700 testing can be.
?
All we are doing is uncovering this truth for ourselves now, in a series of endless repeats.? And gradually it will merge into the background noise of family history and become one of those things that if you have men around, you need to
spend the money – and Ancestry cannot deliver this for you no matter how much money they spend on TV advertising and program making.
?
Brian
?
?
Hi Mike
?
Can you elaborate a bit on this?
?
Like, (1) how many GD:3 or closer Y111 matches do/did you have?
?
So you’d like to find out who your 3rd great-great was.
?
If that ancestor is MRCA with another tester, you are talking about 4th cousins.
?
How many male cousins does one expect at that level?? How many of those still living?? How many of those willing or interested to test?
?
Think 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th cousins----one or more of these generations may have no other surviving male lines.
?
In my case (why I’m an expert, hah! J ), if I only took a BigY test, I would have ZERO Y-matches with anyone I am known to be related to.
?
And I have brothers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th cousins that are known…none either knew about or were interested in Y-tests.? My cousins and father simply didn’t
know about it.
?
But I had Y111GD:3 STR matches with very distant matches and after Y500 tests, we knew which SNPs to test for to confirm father’s lines.
?
So I began testing for SNPs only on cousins---first my father, then a 1st cousin, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and then a 7th cousin 1x removed. ?Only 2 of these people I knew.
?
The further back you can confirm your father’s line on your known tree, the better.
?
Testing for a single SNP is cheap and quick at YSEQ---you don’t have to wait for weeks or months for the answer.
?
But none of this will get you what you want to know unfortunately unless your BigY matches are close enough related to build a theory of who your 3rd gg was.
?
I am at this point myself now.
?
I have tested and confirmed my father’s line back to the furthest known male ancestor who had more than 1 known son that we can trace a father’s line that survived.
?
And document trails back before this (mid-1600’s) are sketchy at best.
?
I have several fairly close BigY matches but all of these trace ancestries a couple hundred miles north.
?
And all of them share a MRCA with me that was missing the 2 SNPs that my 7th cousin and I share.
?
So there could easily be 100-200 years or so of ancestors before that ancestor in 1654 to get to those other lines.
?
Let’s say your 3gr-gf was born about 1830. ?And let’s say your nearest BigY matches show up on the Block Tree with an average of just 4 Private SNPs (PVs) each.
?
First estimate is that this is about 330 years before 1960 or so to common ancestor---i.e. about 1630AD.
?
But it could be MUCH further back.
?
My 7th cousin 1x removed and I each have 2 PVs since our MRCA born in 1654.? That’s about 300 years to each of our births and just 2 PVs each: 150years per SNP.
?
But SNPs can happen quickly also---from SNP tests of cousins, I know that BOTH of my 2 SNPs occurred with my father!
?
None of this is linear.
?
Your 3rd gr-gf was not born that far back in time.
?
Your best bet is to spend a LOT of time looking at autosomal matches to find matches with ancestries that point to clues.
?
Then develop some possible theories and candidate ancestors and find possible male lines with living males to test (facebook helps here), then reach out to them.
?
I’ve never been rejected when I’ve asked for participation with distant cousins to test---even tested a 9th cousin for MTDNA that confirmed mother’s line back to 1640.
?
Anyway, hope this helps.
?
-Myles Twete
?
From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Michael Primm
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are
in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years
of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
Hi Michael, I didn't get a chance to comment on your BigY question back in August but, if you were hoping for Primm results among your BigY results, then I'm afraid that was never on the cards. We already knew when you asked us about your Y-111 results that your closest matches included the surname Sartor and similar. With only very occasional exception, anyone who would be a BigY match to you who is closer than your Sartor matches would also be a Y-111 match: at this stage we are generally only refining the relationships between the people you can already see. So where does this leave us? For further information, I've tried to look at your Family Tree DNA account, but I can't find you in our R-U106 project any more. Instead, I've relied on the information I can get from Sartor's test and how you match him, and the public information that's available on Discover. We know from Discover that your haplogroup R-FTE39986 is a few centuries old. It's comprised of you, the tester with the Sartor ancestor, and a third individual who is among your matches but has not chosen to share his data publicly. Everything we know about this haplogroup comes from the BigY results of the three of you. The other two share the sub-clade R-FTF20075, thus are more closely related to each other than they are to you. We can estimate the age of R-FTE39986 from the number of mutations you each have. The age of R-FTE39986 is defined by the age of your relationship with these two individuals so, when we talk about the age of the haplogroup, we are referring to the birth of this last common ancestor that the three of you share. Because we have so few testers in this haplogroup, the possible range of dates is quite large. We can be 68% certain that your common ancestor was born between 1261 and 1589 AD, and 95% certain that he was born between 1049 and 1705 AD. What this means is that one or both of your lines has had a surname change after this date, or that your relationship predates the use of surnames. My knowledge of German surnames isn't great, but I understand they didn't typically become heritable for commoners until at least the 1500s or even later, and we often see them changed or Anglicised following emigration to the United States and other countries. If we consider that the age of R-FTE39986 is probably older than the 1500s, then it's not surprising that you don't have any other Primms in your BigY matches: the plurality of surnames that you see in your matches is testament to the fact that we are generally looking at relationships before surnames originated. I mentioned this already in your last thread (message #7751) but I'll rephrase it here: breaking down brick walls with Y-DNA alone does happen occasionally, but only in the very rarest of circumstances, and generally when a family has already put a lot of effort into testing. We can also normally see such cases coming from Y-111 results, and even then we would still generally be looking for some kind of paper-trail evidence. But this isn't the best way to look at Y-DNA testing at all. It's not like traditional genealogy, where you need to go step by step, generation by generation, each one lighting up the next piece in the puzzle. Instead, you get a dim light shed across your male line's entire history, stretching back millennia. We can learn things from that: for example, I still have the brick wall on my male line that I started with 15 years ago, but I know that my ancestors didn't move more than a few miles between about 1400 AD, when they seem to have arrived in Scotland, and 1791 when my paper trail begins. For you, we can clearly see that your ancestry is German, and identified some people with whom you share ancestors in the medieval period. ?You can see the information in their family trees, and use tools like the Germany Surname Map to try to identify where your common ancestors might have lived. With these kinds of techniques, you can adopt a rough "destination" for your genealogical search - if you know where your family came from a few centuries ago, it makes it easier to rule options in or out. You should also be aware of a possible surname change, which could have happened at any point in the last few centuries, either by an active choice to adopt a different name, or because someone couldn't keep it inside their lederhosen - you should be prepared to consider that Elijah Primm's father (or grandfather, etc.) might not be called Primm at all. If you have done autosomal testing (e.g. at Ancestry), you should confirm your earlier ancestry by checking that you have matches via your Primm ancestors, all the way back to Elijah Primm. BigY is also a discovery test. With it, you've discovered new mutations in your own DNA. We can test those mutations against any new testers that come along and, eventually, there will be someone who tests who is more closely related to you than the two other testers in R-FTE39986. That might happen tomorrow, or it might be many years from now. When that happens, another light turns on and gives you an intermediate destination to head for in your genealogical quest. I hope this helps put your results in context. Best wishes, Iain.
|
Iain,
I have uploaded my results into the Y-Dna Warehouse, so I hope that is a way everyone can view them. Otherwise, I'll contact FTDNA tomorrow and ask them what to do.
I am going to go through all of the very thoughtful answers I have received today and try to digest it all.? As I have mentioned before, I am a relative newbie (no pun intended) to DNA and specifically Y dna and the learning curve is steep. Thank you so much
for all of the information.
Best,
Mike
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Michael,
I didn't get a chance to comment on your BigY question back in August but, if you were hoping for Primm results among your BigY results, then I'm afraid that was never on the cards. We already knew when you asked us about your Y-111 results that your closest
matches included the surname Sartor and similar. With only very occasional exception, anyone who would be a BigY match to you who is closer than your Sartor matches would also be a Y-111 match: at this stage we are generally only refining the relationships
between the people you can already see.
So where does this leave us? For further information, I've tried to look at your Family Tree DNA account, but I can't find you in our R-U106 project any more. Instead, I've relied on the information I can get from Sartor's test and how you match him, and
the public information that's available on Discover.
We know from Discover that your haplogroup R-FTE39986 is a few centuries old. It's comprised of you, the tester with the Sartor ancestor, and a third individual who is among your matches but has not chosen to share his data publicly. Everything we know about
this haplogroup comes from the BigY results of the three of you. The other two share the sub-clade R-FTF20075, thus are more closely related to each other than they are to you.
We can estimate the age of R-FTE39986 from the number of mutations you each have. The age of R-FTE39986 is defined by the age of your relationship with these two individuals so, when we talk about the age of the haplogroup, we are referring to the birth
of this last common ancestor that the three of you share. Because we have so few testers in this haplogroup, the possible range of dates is quite large. We can be 68% certain that your common ancestor was born between 1261 and 1589 AD, and 95% certain that
he was born between 1049 and 1705 AD.
What this means is that one or both of your lines has had a surname change after this date, or that your relationship predates the use of surnames. My knowledge of German surnames isn't great, but I understand they didn't typically become heritable for commoners
until at least the 1500s or even later, and we often see them changed or Anglicised following emigration to the United States and other countries. If we consider that the age of R-FTE39986 is probably older than the 1500s, then it's not surprising that you
don't have any other Primms in your BigY matches: the plurality of surnames that you see in your matches is testament to the fact that we are generally looking at relationships before surnames originated.
I mentioned this already in your last thread (message #7751) but I'll rephrase it here: breaking down brick walls with Y-DNA alone does happen occasionally, but only in the very rarest of circumstances, and generally when a family has already put a lot of
effort into testing. We can also normally see such cases coming from Y-111 results, and even then we would still generally be looking for some kind of paper-trail evidence.
But this isn't the best way to look at Y-DNA testing at all. It's not like traditional genealogy, where you need to go step by step, generation by generation, each one lighting up the next piece in the puzzle. Instead, you get a dim light shed across your
male line's entire history, stretching back millennia. We can learn things from that: for example, I still have the brick wall on my male line that I started with 15 years ago, but I know that my ancestors didn't move more than a few miles between about 1400
AD, when they seem to have arrived in Scotland, and 1791 when my paper trail begins.
For you, we can clearly see that your ancestry is German, and identified some people with whom you share ancestors in the medieval period. ?You can see the information in their family trees, and use tools like the Germany Surname Map to try to identify where
your common ancestors might have lived. With these kinds of techniques, you can adopt a rough "destination" for your genealogical search - if you know where your family came from a few centuries ago, it makes it easier to rule options in or out. You should
also be aware of a possible surname change, which could have happened at any point in the last few centuries, either by an active choice to adopt a different name, or because someone couldn't keep it inside their lederhosen - you should be prepared to consider
that Elijah Primm's father (or grandfather, etc.) might not be called Primm at all. If you have done autosomal testing (e.g. at Ancestry), you should confirm your earlier ancestry by checking that you have matches via your Primm ancestors, all the way back
to Elijah Primm.
BigY is also a discovery test. With it, you've discovered new mutations in your own DNA. We can test those mutations against any new testers that come along and, eventually, there will be someone who tests who is more closely related to you than the two
other testers in R-FTE39986. That might happen tomorrow, or it might be many years from now. When that happens, another light turns on and gives you an intermediate destination to head for in your genealogical quest.
I hope this helps put your results in context. Best wishes,
Iain.
|
The statistics are not improbable if you start to try and understand the Y-DNA copying process inside the cell, and how that has to take place in 3-D space inside the cell.
?
But if you go there - a lot of cell biology terms come into play which never get discussed on this forum – in particular, how the mitotic spindle forms to pull the two strands
of copied DNA apart – and how DNA repair enzymes operate to patrol and cut out damaged nucleotide bases. Most folk do not even appreciate that the two strands of DNA are copied differently and are aligned in anti-parallel fashion.
?
I would always say “Start with the Molecular Biology of the Cell, 7th Edition, 2022”.? It will cost you about the same amount of money as a 37 marker STR test.? It is a book
you never read unless you want to understand what the distilled wisdom of where we have gotten to pretty recently has gotten to.
?
?
For some reason, the International version is not available in the USA or Canada. Perhaps the publishers have decided you should pay more money!
?
To remind folk with long memories in this forum, there has been a correlation established in the past between the U106 SNP and a value at the STR marker DYS492 of 13 versus 12.
?
An explanation for this correlation has to lie somewhere in the 3-D architecture of the Y-DNA inside the cell.? And when I am sitting here with nothing to do, I should go away
and look up the place on the Y-DNA sequence where the SNP designated as U106 resides, look up where the STR pattern for DYS492 starts, and thus how close they are on the primary Y-DNA reference sequence.
?
Without that approach, it is just non-scientific speculation. Although Iain’s published work does show just how complex the statistics are to use in dating approaches and are
beyond 99.9% of us, that’s for sure.
?
Brian
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 9:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Interesting that 2-3% is the probability that there would be zero SNPs for over 7 generations.
?
In my case, from MRCA (with my 7c1x with BigY results) to my grandfather is exactly 7 generations.
?
Then, the next generation, my father, we see not just 1 SNP but 2 SNPs in that generation.
?
Seems like a doubly-improbable series of events… 2% likelihood to go that long without, followed by another improbable event of 2 SNPs in the same generation.
?
I’m guessing that all this really does is put the overall probability (2 SNPs in 8 generations) at 1 SNP per 4 generations which is not so improbable.
?
?
There is a natural tendency within this group to generalise based on everyone’s personal experiences – with a few exceptions, of course.
?
When I began all this seriously, in early 2006, I read carefully some key chapters in Chris Pomery’s book “DNA and Family History” from 2004.
?
In that, he advocated you should start by testing two male “cousins” who shared a common male ancestor living about 200 years ago.
?
So, I could argue all we have ever been doing since is refining this basic methodology to generate branch patterns today which look like the paper family trees available back in 2004/6.
?
And you never know when the statistics of mutational changes in the DNA structure will work in your favour or against you.
?
We have one major Swann line in Maryland, with three living brothers from the gateway ancestor who arrived there by 1653/4, who all had male descendants for the next 2-3 generations with the same Christian names, more or less - so a nightmare
to disentangle several of the branches, until BigY-700 came along. Some of the Y-SNPs uncovered have been really useful to identify certain male lines unambiguously.
?
But my main collaborator on all this in America, had no SNPs to identify a distinct SNP for his own line, beyond one we could date to a transmission event happening in the first generation - about 1673.? Eventually, he tested his son, and
did get a SNP, which he thinks now might date to his grandfather being conceived. Altogether, that was 7 generations from the 1673 SNP down to him.? So, we asked Iain what were the odds on this non-mutational event happening.? He said it was uncommon and estimated
that over 7 generations it was in the order of 2-3%.
?
But if we had just tested a few people, we would have come away with a false impression just how useful BigY-700 testing can be.
?
All we are doing is uncovering this truth for ourselves now, in a series of endless repeats.? And gradually it will merge into the background noise of family history and become one of those things that if you have men around, you need to
spend the money – and Ancestry cannot deliver this for you no matter how much money they spend on TV advertising and program making.
?
Brian
?
?
Hi Mike
?
Can you elaborate a bit on this?
?
Like, (1) how many GD:3 or closer Y111 matches do/did you have?
?
So you’d like to find out who your 3rd great-great was.
?
If that ancestor is MRCA with another tester, you are talking about 4th cousins.
?
How many male cousins does one expect at that level?? How many of those still living?? How many of those willing or interested to test?
?
Think 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th cousins----one or more of these generations may have no other surviving male lines.
?
In my case (why I’m an expert, hah! J ), if I only took a BigY test, I would have ZERO Y-matches with anyone I am known to be related to.
?
And I have brothers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th cousins that are known…none either knew about or were interested in Y-tests.? My cousins and father simply didn’t
know about it.
?
But I had Y111GD:3 STR matches with very distant matches and after Y500 tests, we knew which SNPs to test for to confirm father’s lines.
?
So I began testing for SNPs only on cousins---first my father, then a 1st cousin, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and then a 7th cousin 1x removed. ?Only 2 of these people I knew.
?
The further back you can confirm your father’s line on your known tree, the better.
?
Testing for a single SNP is cheap and quick at YSEQ---you don’t have to wait for weeks or months for the answer.
?
But none of this will get you what you want to know unfortunately unless your BigY matches are close enough related to build a theory of who your 3rd gg was.
?
I am at this point myself now.
?
I have tested and confirmed my father’s line back to the furthest known male ancestor who had more than 1 known son that we can trace a father’s line that survived.
?
And document trails back before this (mid-1600’s) are sketchy at best.
?
I have several fairly close BigY matches but all of these trace ancestries a couple hundred miles north.
?
And all of them share a MRCA with me that was missing the 2 SNPs that my 7th cousin and I share.
?
So there could easily be 100-200 years or so of ancestors before that ancestor in 1654 to get to those other lines.
?
Let’s say your 3gr-gf was born about 1830. ?And let’s say your nearest BigY matches show up on the Block Tree with an average of just 4 Private SNPs (PVs) each.
?
First estimate is that this is about 330 years before 1960 or so to common ancestor---i.e. about 1630AD.
?
But it could be MUCH further back.
?
My 7th cousin 1x removed and I each have 2 PVs since our MRCA born in 1654.? That’s about 300 years to each of our births and just 2 PVs each: 150years per SNP.
?
But SNPs can happen quickly also---from SNP tests of cousins, I know that BOTH of my 2 SNPs occurred with my father!
?
None of this is linear.
?
Your 3rd gr-gf was not born that far back in time.
?
Your best bet is to spend a LOT of time looking at autosomal matches to find matches with ancestries that point to clues.
?
Then develop some possible theories and candidate ancestors and find possible male lines with living males to test (facebook helps here), then reach out to them.
?
I’ve never been rejected when I’ve asked for participation with distant cousins to test---even tested a 9th cousin for MTDNA that confirmed mother’s line back to 1640.
?
Anyway, hope this helps.
?
-Myles Twete
?
From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Michael Primm
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are
in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years
of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
|
One should also remember that SNPs can, and will occur in the FTDNA unsequenced unreported regions of the Y which is high repetitive.? ? Also due to the technology being used not all reportable STR markers are being reported. Always consider STR changes as being genealogically relevant if they are identified between familial branches.
Note that there are a small number of results within the U106 project where significantly large deletions or rearrangements have occurred in the Y.? For those individuals the routine methods that FTDNA uses for reporting yDNA results can be problematic.
Wayne K
On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 02:27:55 AM EST, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
The statistics are not improbable if you start to try and understand the Y-DNA copying process inside the cell, and how that has to take place in 3-D space inside the cell.
?
But if you go there - a lot of cell biology terms come into play which never get discussed on this forum – in particular, how the mitotic spindle forms to pull the two strands
of copied DNA apart – and how DNA repair enzymes operate to patrol and cut out damaged nucleotide bases. Most folk do not even appreciate that the two strands of DNA are copied differently and are aligned in anti-parallel fashion.
?
I would always say “Start with the Molecular Biology of the Cell, 7th Edition, 2022”.? It will cost you about the same amount of money as a 37 marker STR test.? It is a book
you never read unless you want to understand what the distilled wisdom of where we have gotten to pretty recently has gotten to.
?
?
For some reason, the International version is not available in the USA or Canada. Perhaps the publishers have decided you should pay more money!
?
To remind folk with long memories in this forum, there has been a correlation established in the past between the U106 SNP and a value at the STR marker DYS492 of 13 versus 12.
?
An explanation for this correlation has to lie somewhere in the 3-D architecture of the Y-DNA inside the cell.? And when I am sitting here with nothing to do, I should go away
and look up the place on the Y-DNA sequence where the SNP designated as U106 resides, look up where the STR pattern for DYS492 starts, and thus how close they are on the primary Y-DNA reference sequence.
?
Without that approach, it is just non-scientific speculation. Although Iain’s published work does show just how complex the statistics are to use in dating approaches and are
beyond 99.9% of us, that’s for sure.
?
Brian
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 9:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
?
Interesting that 2-3% is the probability that there would be zero SNPs for over 7 generations.
?
In my case, from MRCA (with my 7c1x with BigY results) to my grandfather is exactly 7 generations.
?
Then, the next generation, my father, we see not just 1 SNP but 2 SNPs in that generation.
?
Seems like a doubly-improbable series of events… 2% likelihood to go that long without, followed by another improbable event of 2 SNPs in the same generation.
?
I’m guessing that all this really does is put the overall probability (2 SNPs in 8 generations) at 1 SNP per 4 generations which is not so improbable.
?
?
There is a natural tendency within this group to generalise based on everyone’s personal experiences – with a few exceptions, of course.
?
When I began all this seriously, in early 2006, I read carefully some key chapters in Chris Pomery’s book “DNA and Family History” from 2004.
?
In that, he advocated you should start by testing two male “cousins” who shared a common male ancestor living about 200 years ago.
?
So, I could argue all we have ever been doing since is refining this basic methodology to generate branch patterns today which look like the paper family trees available back in 2004/6.
?
And you never know when the statistics of mutational changes in the DNA structure will work in your favour or against you.
?
We have one major Swann line in Maryland, with three living brothers from the gateway ancestor who arrived there by 1653/4, who all had male descendants for the next 2-3 generations with the same Christian names, more or less - so a nightmare
to disentangle several of the branches, until BigY-700 came along. Some of the Y-SNPs uncovered have been really useful to identify certain male lines unambiguously.
?
But my main collaborator on all this in America, had no SNPs to identify a distinct SNP for his own line, beyond one we could date to a transmission event happening in the first generation - about 1673.? Eventually, he tested his son, and
did get a SNP, which he thinks now might date to his grandfather being conceived. Altogether, that was 7 generations from the 1673 SNP down to him.? So, we asked Iain what were the odds on this non-mutational event happening.? He said it was uncommon and estimated
that over 7 generations it was in the order of 2-3%.
?
But if we had just tested a few people, we would have come away with a false impression just how useful BigY-700 testing can be.
?
All we are doing is uncovering this truth for ourselves now, in a series of endless repeats.? And gradually it will merge into the background noise of family history and become one of those things that if you have men around, you need to
spend the money – and Ancestry cannot deliver this for you no matter how much money they spend on TV advertising and program making.
?
Brian
?
?
Hi Mike
?
Can you elaborate a bit on this?
?
Like, (1) how many GD:3 or closer Y111 matches do/did you have?
?
So you’d like to find out who your 3rd great-great was.
?
If that ancestor is MRCA with another tester, you are talking about 4th cousins.
?
How many male cousins does one expect at that level?? How many of those still living?? How many of those willing or interested to test?
?
Think 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th cousins----one or more of these generations may have no other surviving male lines.
?
In my case (why I’m an expert, hah! J ), if I only took a BigY test, I would have ZERO Y-matches with anyone I am known to be related to.
?
And I have brothers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th cousins that are known…none either knew about or were interested in Y-tests.? My cousins and father simply didn’t
know about it.
?
But I had Y111GD:3 STR matches with very distant matches and after Y500 tests, we knew which SNPs to test for to confirm father’s lines.
?
So I began testing for SNPs only on cousins---first my father, then a 1st cousin, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and then a 7th cousin 1x removed. ?Only 2 of these people I knew.
?
The further back you can confirm your father’s line on your known tree, the better.
?
Testing for a single SNP is cheap and quick at YSEQ---you don’t have to wait for weeks or months for the answer.
?
But none of this will get you what you want to know unfortunately unless your BigY matches are close enough related to build a theory of who your 3rd gg was.
?
I am at this point myself now.
?
I have tested and confirmed my father’s line back to the furthest known male ancestor who had more than 1 known son that we can trace a father’s line that survived.
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And document trails back before this (mid-1600’s) are sketchy at best.
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I have several fairly close BigY matches but all of these trace ancestries a couple hundred miles north.
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And all of them share a MRCA with me that was missing the 2 SNPs that my 7th cousin and I share.
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So there could easily be 100-200 years or so of ancestors before that ancestor in 1654 to get to those other lines.
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Let’s say your 3gr-gf was born about 1830. ?And let’s say your nearest BigY matches show up on the Block Tree with an average of just 4 Private SNPs (PVs) each.
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First estimate is that this is about 330 years before 1960 or so to common ancestor---i.e. about 1630AD.
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But it could be MUCH further back.
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My 7th cousin 1x removed and I each have 2 PVs since our MRCA born in 1654.? That’s about 300 years to each of our births and just 2 PVs each: 150years per SNP.
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But SNPs can happen quickly also---from SNP tests of cousins, I know that BOTH of my 2 SNPs occurred with my father!
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None of this is linear.
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Your 3rd gr-gf was not born that far back in time.
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Your best bet is to spend a LOT of time looking at autosomal matches to find matches with ancestries that point to clues.
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Then develop some possible theories and candidate ancestors and find possible male lines with living males to test (facebook helps here), then reach out to them.
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I’ve never been rejected when I’ve asked for participation with distant cousins to test---even tested a 9th cousin for MTDNA that confirmed mother’s line back to 1640.
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Anyway, hope this helps.
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-Myles Twete
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From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Michael Primm
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] To FTDNA Experts
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Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are
in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years
of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
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Hi Mike Not knowing where your ancestors are from in Germany, I did a quick search and found Primms in the Brandenburg area in the 1700's. Before that, 1400 to 1600, there was one, spelled Prem, in the "German Empire" and several others spelled Brem
My father has no matches passed 111 (at a great distance), but I have found marriage and baptismal records for Ravensberg, Germany that have a paper trail for his family back to 1790. He matches no one in his surname project, they were all from Switzerland. I agree with the name change theory here, one of his great grandmothers is listed with three different surnames and match baptismal records of all of the children. So women's names were very fluent.
On Tuesday, February 27, 2024 at 10:16:54 AM CST, Michael Primm <mrprimm53@...> wrote:
Hello,
I received my BigY results yesterday and I am a bit disappointed and confused. I thought I would find my surname in the match results, but no joy. I got names that I've never heard of. I have a large tree (over 15k) and none of the names from the results are in my tree. Of the matches that had trees, I searched them for familiar names, but no names that I recognized. Please see the screenshot attachment. The main reason for doing the BigY was to finally find out who my 3rd GGps on my father's side after 20 years of searching.
Any input would be appreciated.
Best,
Mike
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On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 12:27 AM, Brian Swann wrote:
Start with the Molecular Biology of the Cell, 7th Edition, 2022
Publisher's portal at https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393884821 ? -- Best regards, Vince T.
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Wayne