A6535 Scotland

Greetings and HNY,

For those of you concerned with the subclade in the heading, here is a small update.

As you may recall, in the past I have suggested that the Curry lineages of Ayrshire are unlikely to descend from the Dumfriesshire Corries, given that the early records (11-1200s) show Curry already in Ayrshire. I recently checked the Wikipedia entry for Corrie, which devotes a small paragraph to this issue:
"The Norse Chronicle records the valiant deeds of a Scottish knight at the in 1263. His name is recorded in the saga as "Ferus" and "Perus", and it describes how he rode out through the ranks of enemy—the Norwegians—and back to his own lines to safety before being slain. Modern historians have tentatively identified this saga character with Piers de Curry. from , who was a vassal of the . However, it is not certain that he was connected with the Annandale family."

One of the references for this assertion, the book "Viking Empires" published about 20 years ago, is available on Archive.org. In it we can read:
"Parts of the Norwegian force, however, made a stand at the vessels that had been driven ashore by the storms at various points along the beach, using the vessels as makeshift fortifications, and succeeded in driving back the Scots, killing a knight named ‘Perus’, who has been identified tentatively as Piers de Curry, an Ayrshire vassal of the Stewarts.°*"

The reference here is the same as the other reference in the Wikipedia article, which dates from 1981.

Hence scholarly opinion appears to suggest that the de Curry lineage of Ayrshire (in the A6535 subclade) may well descend from one of the vassals who accompanied Walter FitzAlan to Ayrshire in about 1141.

Cheers, Roy

#8510

Roy,

Thanks for all the time you spend on this..

While?it's been awhile, I looked at the ftdna site last week and noticed (probably old news) that they split you and I and also added a couple groups between us, it's nice to see a bit of more detail on dates (or date ranges).

Rich Curry

Show quoted text

On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 3:01?PM Roy via <node999=[email protected]> wrote:

Greetings and HNY,

For those of you concerned with the subclade in the heading, here is a small update.

As you may recall, in the past I have suggested that the Curry lineages of Ayrshire are unlikely to descend from the Dumfriesshire Corries, given that the early records (11-1200s) show Curry already in Ayrshire. I recently checked the Wikipedia entry for Corrie, which devotes a small paragraph to this issue:
"The Norse Chronicle records the valiant deeds of a Scottish knight at the in 1263. His name is recorded in the saga as "Ferus" and "Perus", and it describes how he rode out through the ranks of enemy—the Norwegians—and back to his own lines to safety before being slain. Modern historians have tentatively identified this saga character with Piers de Curry. from , who was a vassal of the . However, it is not certain that he was connected with the Annandale family."

One of the references for this assertion, the book "Viking Empires" published about 20 years ago, is available on Archive.org. In it we can read:
"Parts of the Norwegian force, however, made a stand at the vessels that had been driven ashore by the storms at various points along the beach, using the vessels as makeshift fortifications, and succeeded in driving back the Scots, killing a knight named ‘Perus’, who has been identified tentatively as Piers de Curry, an Ayrshire vassal of the Stewarts.°*"

The reference here is the same as the other reference in the Wikipedia article, which dates from 1981.

Hence scholarly opinion appears to suggest that the de Curry lineage of Ayrshire (in the A6535 subclade) may well descend from one of the vassals who accompanied Walter FitzAlan to Ayrshire in about 1141.

Cheers, Roy

#8511

Hi Rich, You're right, the chairs have been rearranged since I last visited the Tree. My clade is now A10619, which is estimated to have formed about 1650, approximately when my lineage shifted over to Ireland from Scotland, whereas Currie is now split between A7174, which is shared with Wallace, and your subclade FT175051 (1600CE), which in turn branches from FT117328 (13500CE), where our branches meet. THe grandparent, FT83834 (1200CE) coincides roughly with the Normanization of Ayrshire, and A6535 is about a century earlier. The latter clade is ancestral to Thompson and Templeton, which are names that fit well in an Ayrshire context, so the progenitor may well have carried that SNP. However, another Currie under the great grandparent clade BY17541 (850CE) suggests that the dates get blurred at some point, and may soon be subject to revision. Even the clade above that shows no surnames of Continental origin.? Either the lineage had been in England long before the Conquest, or the estimated SNP dates need to be reconsidered.

Cheers, Roy

#8512

Hi Roy, all,

?

It's been on my list of things to do to revise the ages for R-A6535 and the broader R-Y17443, given the addition of some more testers. For now, the dates I previously computed are probably still more accurate than those on Discover.

?

The Discover ages don't have the constraints from genealogy added, which makes a big difference in R-Y17443. Single genealogies push back the TMRCA, since they dictate that common ancestors must be before a certain point. Triangulated pairs of genealogies that dictate who the MRCA was actually bring the TMRCA for surrounding haplogroups forward in time.

?

This latter reason is a little harder to understand, but better considered by example: if you have a TMRCA that is 300 +/- 100 years, then all is fine but if you increase the uncertainty to 300 +/- 400 years, then you have a problem: the TMRCA can't be less than zero. The errors become asymmetric and, rather than a TMRCA of 300 +/- 400 years, you end ?up with something more like a TMRCA of 500 +/- 400 years. Consequently, providing more data on young haplogroups (either through more tests or using genealogy) then it tends to bring the TMRCAs closer to the present.

?

I still expect the R-FT114487 TMRCA to be roughly co-incident with the Norman Conquest - perhaps slightly before or after.

?

Cheers,

?

Iain.

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A6535 Scotland