Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
Many thanks, Iain.
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I was very happy to see the sub-section R-Z18>FGC5817, being a descendant.
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Re: your comment in that sub-section about the Israeli tester. The same kit number appears on Alex Williamson's Y Tree with a Danish flag and surname.
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Jeremy?
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Phylogeography update: R-Z18
Hi all, ? I've pushed out the latest update to my for R-U106. As well as the R-U106 basal clades, it now includes the migrations of R-Z18 and its sub-clades. ? The key geographical split of R-Z18 is between the Nordic countries (particularly Norway and Sweden) and the Alpine countries (particularly Switzerland and Slovakia). This geography is unique to R-Z18 among all R-U106 sub-clades. Looking at homogeneity and heterogeneity in individual R-Z18 sub-clades, I've deduced that R-Z18 did not begin in either of these extremes, but probably somewhere in the middle. I've assumed an origin and initial growth in the southern end of the Nordic Bronze Age and dated the subsequent migrations north and south to the rise of the Germanic peoples. That is not to say that all R-Z18 were Germanic, but that the majority seem to be. The Jastorf culture probably plays a significant role in the growth of R-Z18, but I've not been able to pin that role down precisely. ? See the document for full details and information about individual haplogroups. Much of it is necessarily either speculative or imprecise, as this is really getting as much as we can out of the data. Don't expect a lot of the detail to be accurate or unchanging in the future, and there may well be different explanations that I haven't thought of that fit the data better than the understanding I've been able to build up. ? This represents the last chunk I was able to get done over the Christmas holidays. I'm expecting the next chunk will take me some time. ? All the best, ? Iain.
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Hi Roy, all, ? It's been on my list of things to do to revise the ages for R-A6535 and the broader R-Y17443, given the addition of some more testers. For now, the dates I previously computed are probably still more accurate than those on Discover. ? The Discover ages don't have the constraints from genealogy added, which makes a big difference in R-Y17443. Single genealogies push back the TMRCA, since they dictate that common ancestors must be before a certain point. Triangulated pairs of genealogies that dictate who the MRCA was actually bring the TMRCA for surrounding haplogroups forward in time. ? This latter reason is a little harder to understand, but better considered by example: if you have a TMRCA that is 300 +/- 100 years, then all is fine but if you increase the uncertainty to 300 +/- 400 years, then you have a problem: the TMRCA can't be less than zero. The errors become asymmetric and, rather than a TMRCA of 300 +/- 400 years, you end ?up with something more like a TMRCA of 500 +/- 400 years. Consequently, providing more data on young haplogroups (either through more tests or using genealogy) then it tends to bring the TMRCAs closer to the present. ? I still expect the R-FT114487 TMRCA to be roughly co-incident with the Norman Conquest - perhaps slightly before or after. ? Cheers, ? Iain.
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Hi Rich, You're right, the chairs have been rearranged since I last visited the Tree. My clade is now A10619, which is estimated to have formed about 1650, approximately when my lineage shifted over to Ireland from Scotland, whereas Currie is now split between A7174, which is shared with Wallace, and your subclade FT175051 (1600CE), which in turn branches from FT117328 (13500CE), where our branches meet. THe grandparent, FT83834 (1200CE) coincides roughly with the Normanization of Ayrshire, and A6535 is about a century earlier. The latter clade is ancestral to Thompson and Templeton, which are names that fit well in an Ayrshire context, so the progenitor may well have carried that SNP. However, another Currie under the great grandparent clade BY17541 (850CE) suggests that the dates get blurred at some point, and may soon be subject to revision. Even the clade above that shows no surnames of Continental origin.? Either the lineage had been in England long before the Conquest, or the estimated SNP dates need to be reconsidered.
Cheers, Roy
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Roy,
Thanks for all the time you spend on this.. While?it's been awhile, I looked at the ftdna site last week and noticed (probably old news) that they split you and I and also added a couple groups between us, it's nice to see a bit of more detail on dates (or date ranges).
Rich Curry
Greetings and HNY,
For those of you concerned with the subclade in the heading, here is a small update.
As you may recall, in the past I have suggested that the Curry lineages of Ayrshire are unlikely to descend from the Dumfriesshire Corries, given that the early records (11-1200s) show Curry already in Ayrshire. I recently checked the Wikipedia entry for Corrie, which devotes a small paragraph to this issue:
"The Norse Chronicle records the valiant deeds of a Scottish knight at the in 1263. His name is recorded in the saga as "Ferus" and "Perus", and it describes how he rode out through the ranks of enemy¡ªthe Norwegians¡ªand back to his own lines to safety before being slain. Modern historians have tentatively identified this saga character with Piers de Curry. from , who was a vassal of the . However, it is not certain that he was connected with the Annandale family."
One of the references for this assertion, the book "Viking Empires" published about 20 years ago, is available on Archive.org. In it we can read:
"Parts of the Norwegian force, however, made a stand at the vessels that had been driven ashore by the storms at various points along the beach, using the vessels as makeshift fortifications, and succeeded in driving back the Scots, killing a knight named ¡®Perus¡¯, who has been identified tentatively as Piers de Curry, an Ayrshire vassal of the Stewarts.¡ã*"
The reference here is the same as the other reference in the Wikipedia article, which dates from 1981.
Hence scholarly opinion appears to suggest that the de Curry lineage of Ayrshire (in the A6535 subclade) may well descend from one of the vassals who accompanied Walter FitzAlan to Ayrshire in about 1141.
Cheers, Roy
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Greetings and HNY,
For those of you concerned with the subclade in the heading, here is a small update.
As you may recall, in the past I have suggested that the Curry lineages of Ayrshire are unlikely to descend from the Dumfriesshire Corries, given that the early records (11-1200s) show Curry already in Ayrshire. I recently checked the Wikipedia entry for Corrie, which devotes a small paragraph to this issue:
"The Norse Chronicle records the valiant deeds of a Scottish knight at the in 1263. His name is recorded in the saga as "Ferus" and "Perus", and it describes how he rode out through the ranks of enemy¡ªthe Norwegians¡ªand back to his own lines to safety before being slain. Modern historians have tentatively identified this saga character with Piers de Curry. from , who was a vassal of the . However, it is not certain that he was connected with the Annandale family."
One of the references for this assertion, the book "Viking Empires" published about 20 years ago, is available on Archive.org. In it we can read:
"Parts of the Norwegian force, however, made a stand at the vessels that had been driven ashore by the storms at various points along the beach, using the vessels as makeshift fortifications, and succeeded in driving back the Scots, killing a knight named ¡®Perus¡¯, who has been identified tentatively as Piers de Curry, an Ayrshire vassal of the Stewarts.¡ã*"
The reference here is the same as the other reference in the Wikipedia article, which dates from 1981.
Hence scholarly opinion appears to suggest that the de Curry lineage of Ayrshire (in the A6535 subclade) may well descend from one of the vassals who accompanied Walter FitzAlan to Ayrshire in about 1141.
Cheers, Roy
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
Deeply moved. Very brave of you. Chin up.
In the context of full disclosure I should declare 19% Welsh (North Wales).?
This was unexpected, but one might wish to join the dots with an unidentified grandparent (NPE situation).?
So, on discovery, I retired to the kitchen (I don't have a study, and alcohol is not allowed in the local library), without a loaded revolver (the British have a right not to bear arms), and a glass of Aberlour 10 year - brandy being a poor second to single malt Scotch whisky (and it's French).
But I'm over it now.?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
In the context of full disclosure I should declare 19% Welsh (North Wales).?
This was unexpected, but one might wish to join the dots with an unidentified grandparent (NPE situation).?
So, on discovery, I retired to the kitchen (I don't have a study, and alcohol is not allowed in the local library), without a loaded revolver (the British have a right not to bear arms), and a glass of Aberlour 10 year - brandy being a poor second to single malt Scotch whisky (and it's French).
But I'm over it now.?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
Lucky man. Nostalgic for the days when I was 46% Scots.
Would you like your Armagnac shaken or stirred? If it's any consolation, Ancestry pegs me at 3% Wales. Were it not for my German grandmother I daresay I could tip 60% Scotland. 
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 at 11:49, Piero Sinclair via <pierosinclair= [email protected]> wrote: Yes please.
THe Cornish bit is just a stand-in for Welsh.
"The Cornish people, who shared the
with the Welsh, Cumbrics and Pics, and also the Bretons who had
migrated across the sea to escape the Anglo-Saxon invasions, were
referred to in the language as the "Westwalas" meaning West Welsh." Wikipedia
Want to borrow my?Walther PPK?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
Would you like your Armagnac shaken or stirred? If it's any consolation, Ancestry pegs me at 3% Wales. Were it not for my German grandmother I daresay I could tip 60% Scotland. 
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 at 11:49, Piero Sinclair via <pierosinclair= [email protected]> wrote: Yes please.
THe Cornish bit is just a stand-in for Welsh.
"The Cornish people, who shared the
with the Welsh, Cumbrics and Pics, and also the Bretons who had
migrated across the sea to escape the Anglo-Saxon invasions, were
referred to in the language as the "Westwalas" meaning West Welsh." Wikipedia
Want to borrow my?Walther PPK?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
THe Cornish bit is just a stand-in for Welsh.
"The Cornish people, who shared the
with the Welsh, Cumbrics and Pics, and also the Bretons who had
migrated across the sea to escape the Anglo-Saxon invasions, were
referred to in the language as the "Westwalas" meaning West Welsh." Wikipedia
Want to borrow my?Walther PPK?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
OK let's have immune then, languages are living after all.
"impugn the Scottish nation"? I do like "immune the Scottish nation" if it means that 5,490,100 people won't become ill....
On 01/17/2025 5:01 AM EST Piero Sinclair via <pierosinclair= [email protected]> wrote:
?
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How dare you immune the Scottish nation.
Whereas Wales, I'm entirely with you, and proud to report Ancestry gives me none. English, Scots, Cornish, Irish, Danish, Swedish and German in that order.?
I should have no Irish, think that's part of my Cornish inheritance.?
Cripes - being Partly Of Scotia is dire enough, but if the 'missing' 29% turned out to be Welsh it'd be time to retire to the study with a loaded revolver and a large glass of brandy.
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
THe Cornish bit is just a stand-in for Welsh.
"The Cornish people, who shared the
with the Welsh, Cumbrics and Pics, and also the Bretons who had
migrated across the sea to escape the Anglo-Saxon invasions, were
referred to in the language as the "Westwalas" meaning West Welsh." Wikipedia
Want to borrow my?Walther PPK?
|
Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
"impugn the Scottish nation"? I do like "immune the Scottish nation" if it means that 5,490,100 people won't become ill....
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 01/17/2025 5:01 AM EST Piero Sinclair via groups.io <pierosinclair@...> wrote:
?
?
How dare you immune the Scottish nation.
Whereas Wales, I'm entirely with you, and proud to report Ancestry gives me none. English, Scots, Cornish, Irish, Danish, Swedish and German in that order.?
I should have no Irish, think that's part of my Cornish inheritance.?
Cripes - being Partly Of Scotia is dire enough, but if the 'missing' 29% turned out to be Welsh it'd be time to retire to the study with a loaded revolver and a large glass of brandy.
?
?
?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
Impugn of course. Robots..
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, 10:01 Piero Sinclair via , <pierosinclair= [email protected]> wrote: How dare you immune the Scottish nation. Whereas Wales, I'm entirely with you, and proud to report Ancestry gives me none. English, Scots, Cornish, Irish, Danish, Swedish and German in that order.? I should have no Irish, think that's part of my Cornish inheritance.?
Cripes - being Partly Of Scotia is dire enough, but if the 'missing' 29% turned out to be Welsh it'd be time to retire to the study with a loaded revolver and a large glass of brandy.
?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
How dare you immune the Scottish nation. Whereas Wales, I'm entirely with you, and proud to report Ancestry gives me none. English, Scots, Cornish, Irish, Danish, Swedish and German in that order.? I should have no Irish, think that's part of my Cornish inheritance.?
Cripes - being Partly Of Scotia is dire enough, but if the 'missing' 29% turned out to be Welsh it'd be time to retire to the study with a loaded revolver and a large glass of brandy.
?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
For a bit more of a challenge try hitting a shot glass from 20 paces.
Cripes - being Partly Of Scotia is dire enough, but if the 'missing' 29% turned out to be Welsh it'd be time to retire to the study with a loaded revolver and a large glass of brandy.
?
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Re: 23andMe ancestry test sale
Cripes - being Partly Of Scotia is dire enough, but if the 'missing' 29% turned out to be Welsh it'd be time to retire to the study with a loaded revolver and a large glass of brandy.
?
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For those of us here in America there is a new project where you might be able to get your exome sequenced with potentially the results being added to your medical record.? Still early as to whether you would be able to con your medical professional to allow you to download the data for your personal assembly and analysis.
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Re: English Wills (Was: Is your EKA information accurate?)
Thank you Debbie - that looks like a terrific initiative. I have spent so many hours transcribing PCC wills. A first cut by AI would be a great help.
Cheers
Warren Searell?
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Peter Wilson Coldham did find and index a huge number of Wills with references to Americans from the PCC Court.? I¡¯m sure he thought he had collected everything that was easily accessible out there when he did that work.
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I have come across one case in my research where the clue to a Swann going to America in the 1650s was buried in the middle of a Chancery Case document.? So, there will be such items hidden out there.? Even now, work by
some colleagues in America are unearthing treasures from digitized microfilms at FamilySearch ¨C some of which go back to being filmed in the 1940s but never indexed before.
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It is always worth remembering with PCC Wills ¨C that the Original Wills are held at the PCC as well, in Class PROB 10.? The Original Wills start later ¨C around about 1487 from memory ¨C the very first Will in Class PROB
10 has been endorsed to that effect by a former PRO Official, probably when the Public Record Office was first set up in the 1830s.
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I have found a few occasions where some words which the copy clerks thought were irrelevant to the probate of the Will were ignored when it came to making the copy ¨C especially if it was an addendum at the bottom of a Will
or a comment or endorsement on the exterior of the folded Will.? I¡¯m pretty certain Coldham also examined all of these original Wills as well when he compiled his indexes ¨C but I¡¯ve never checked specifically what he says in the Introduction sections of his
books ¨C the part that most family historians never read, especially on Ancestry.
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The Original Wills can be easier to read quite often and can enable words or phrases which can be difficult to read in the Copy Wills on Ancestry far easier to decipher.? But they are bundled into boxes arranged by month
and year of probate and then arranged inside the box into alphabetical bundles by surname, usually tied together by tags which can be difficult to open as few researchers go there - by the initial letter of the testator¡¯s name.? You can work out the box required
using the ¡®Discovery¡¯ and ¡®Advanced Search¡¯ features on the TNA website. You find the precise month and year of probate using the online index to all PROB 11 probates at the TNA, then search for that same month and year of probate using the PROB 10 description
field in the ¡®Class¡¯ section of the search field. Sometimes a month of probates can be split across two boxes ¨C with designations like A-D and E-Z to define which box you need to order up.
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Brian
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There is currently a major project at Exeter University which is using AI to transcribe 25,000 wills from the Prerogative Court of Canterbury. I am sure there will be many exciting discoveries. You can read about the project
here:
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The project is highlighting interesting wills once a month on their blog:
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Debbie Kennett
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Genealogically speaking, when the English wills get transcribed (and some are being transcribed using AI) and made ¡°available¡±, then turning AI loose with that info could do wonders for ¡°Colonials¡± looking for British relatives.
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Al
Linda R Horton
Wayne