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Re: TMRCA of R-L151 and timing its growth
开云体育I would advise you that Susan Meates, who is DNA Advisor to the Guild of One-Name Studies in the UK, has just written an article about DNA Surname Project Administrators and is strongly advocating the switch from Limited to Advanced.? She is arguing that as it does not apply to Co-Administrators, then consider promoting a few of them to Administrators. ? This is a 2-page article from the October-December 2014 issue.? I am posting in the first page so you can get the gist of her article. It is entitled ‘Pass On Your DNA Project Update’. ? She does have a paragraph in this article which reads: ? The Limited setting makes it much more difficult for a new Administrator to do their job. They would need to contact all the participants to change their settings to Advanced. And of course, the deceased members can’t make the change, unless they passed on their sample to a beneficiary. You can solve this problem today, by having all your participants grant for any future Admin/co-Admin authorization for Advanced Access. You can write to your participants and ask them to change this setting now and do the same for any new participants that join. Then, when you add a co-Admin, or a new Admin, or put the project up for adoption, the participants will show as Advanced for the new Admin. If you purchase a test kit, simply log in and change the Project Preferences to Advanced. ? ? So – some difference of opinions here!? And I suspect only Susan Meates has the time to do this sort of thing.? I sure don’t. ? Brian ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of James Kane via groups.io
Sent: 20 December 2024 16:42 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] TMRCA of R-L151 and timing its growth ? ?
? For my purpose the only thing Advanced permission is good for is getting the raw data from the less technical folks in a more secure manner than asking them to email me the token to the files. ?This access should really be on a different level, since none of us should be modifying someone’s personal data which is allowed by Advanced. ? James Kane ? |
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Re: TMRCA of R-L151 and timing its growth
开云体育
James Kane |
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Re: TMRCA of R-L151 and timing its growth
Managed to log in, always a good feeling. Iain and I have discussed these matters quite frequently through the years and we often disagree in a good-humoured way. It's not long ago he tried to convince me Mr L151 sailed in an open boat from the Volga across the Baltic Sea.? Having just finished my first novel, I have now started writing my own phylogenetics book, which is how 75% of the the men born in Northern/Western Europe are descended on the paternal line from 3 men who lived around 3000 BC. First stop is of course the vast expansion of L151 from the Elbe, how did Mr L151 get there, where did his descendants? go and how did they become Beakerised, why should he have such an enormous advantage over the other 12 million men or so alive in Europe at the end of the Neolithic?? I haven't been through Iain's piece yet but a few points come immediately to mind - I think it's a mistake to call our work "pseudoscience". As long as it is said people will believe it. One might just as well call the whole of phylogeography pseudoscience - it collects heavily biased sparse data based on pet theories, uses doubtful uncalibrated methods and has produced more totally wrong published papers over 15 years than you can shake a stick at. You wont hear any of them calling their work pseudoscience. - I have never had a problem with the administrative data from FTDNA we use. Through a good part of my (day) career I have worked extensively with administrative data. got results no-one else could and loved it. You just discard the inconsistent, weight for collection bias and voila. It is true that positivist researchers hate admin data, but so what.?? - in particular the USA data doesnt bother me. Sure, when they ran out of space in Europe they took over the new world but so what, it's just more space. Yes, Virginia/NC colonial data is useless but I just mark it or ignore it. I compare all those who have said "Unknown", "USA" or "Great Britain", look at the distributions and they are always pretty much identical.? - what does bother me a lot more is the heavy Jewish bias. For example, I have been told there is no native Romanian data at all, it's all Jewish. You can see it everywhere throughout the timelines. It's very difficult to correct for and makes a mess out of East-Central Europe, J, E, and even R haplogroups. In general I have opposed the idea of giving me "Advanced" permission. From the start I have been concerned about the legal implications, you might be accused of all sorts of things. So far so good; there have been no cases, but nevertheless... Best to all, Season''s Greetings Joe Flood |
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
开云体育Project administrators did previously have the ability to change the EKA information for their project members. If I recall correctly, this ability was removed when all the GDPR changes were brought in. Unfortunately I can't see FTDNA reverting to the old system. ? Debbie ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joe Fox via groups.io
Sent: 16 December 2024 04:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Is your EKA information accurate? ? After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't see how to convey the information properly. Joe Fox _._,_. |
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
Belinda,
On the other hand, a model that did NOT suggest any "there and back" migrations would be even more suspicious. After all, we know very well that people were moving "back and forth" across the continents with some regularity for pretty much the entire time modern humans have been ?in Eurasia. Movement between the British Isles and points as far away as Germany, Italy, or even Israel were possible in just a few weeks or months. Globetrekker is a model, and all models are wrong. ?But many are useful, and I think Globetrekker is probably the best model we currently have available. Vince ?
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On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 12:47 PM, Belinda Dettmann wrote:
Roy, as a dedicated member of the R-U106 project (through my brother's test, with EKA in Germany) I am well aware of the problems Globetrekker has with testers from the continent which Globetrekker insists must have travelled to Britain before returning to the continent. These there-and-back paths don't only occur in R-U106 but in many other haplogroups as well, including R-L746, and there are frequent queries about these in other online discussion groups. In my opinion a there-and-back path should always raise suspicions as to the applicablity of the Globetrekker algorithm. These results come from the overwhelming bias of testers with British ancestry and Iain has drawn our attention to these problems in the past. In other words, I don't believe, on the basis of Globetrekker, that the ancient Stewarts were in Cornwall before they were in Brittany. |
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
On Dec 16, 2024, at 2:44?PM, genesweetser via groups.io <genesweetser@...> wrote:With the colonization movements after the late 15th century there are undoubtedly SNP that have developed here in the Americas for what would be considered a European in origin. The problem is digging through the noise in the data to triangulate the location and age. I consider all of these trackers as entertainment purposes only… James |
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
Roy, as a dedicated member of the R-U106 project (through my brother's test, with EKA in Germany) I am well aware of the problems Globetrekker has with testers from the continent which Globetrekker insists must have travelled to Britain before returning to the continent. These there-and-back paths don't only occur in R-U106 but in many other haplogroups as well, including R-L746, and there are frequent queries about these in other online discussion groups. In my opinion a there-and-back path should always raise suspicions as to the applicablity of the Globetrekker algorithm. These results come from the overwhelming bias of testers with British ancestry and Iain has drawn our attention to these problems in the past. In other words, I don't believe, on the basis of Globetrekker, that the ancient Stewarts were in Cornwall before they were in Brittany.
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Belinda
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
There is no "refusal to admit" anything, just an awareness of what the models they are using are capable of given the data that users provide.
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Vince
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On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 12:44 PM, <genesweetser@...> wrote:
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
Brian, Iain, Some notions that spring to mind with regard to propelling the project forward. I met Skoglund when I visited the Reich lab back in 2014, and Reich sat in on the discussion. Probably too long ago for them to remember but it could be an icebreaker should you wish to open a contact. I also had dinner with Martin Sikora of the Willerslev lab on the occasion of the 2018 conference in Vienna, as well as Kristian Kristiansen, with whom I had already had some correspondence. He is sort of the grand old man of Bronze age archaeology, and a dogged proponent of DNA integration. Also at the conference in Vienna and an earlier genetic genealogy conference in Dublin was Andrew Millard () who, although his work is not concerned directly with DNA, is nevertheless keen on the subject. In fact, he collaborated in the development of DNA Painter. With proper introduction any one of these individuals might be lured into a project to bridge the shrinking gap between genetic genealogy and archaeogenetics. In case anyone is interested in the state of ancient DNA back in 2018, the videos I made of some of the presentations at the Vienna conference are online at the link?. The playlist seems to have been dismantled but the search will take you there. On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 at 13:16, Iain via <gubbins=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
Responses below. I've unexpectedly found myself a bit short of time for replies due to family misfortunes, so brief responses only I'm afraid. ? Kevin - thanks. Order of magnitude typo when copying. Should be 155k, not 1.55M. Will fix in next revision. ? Roy - Globetrekker is a nightmare for putting haplogroups in England when they should not be. This greatly affects R-U106 and is caused by poor treatment of sampling bias and the possibility of missing data in poorly-tested countries. ? Joe - I'm interested in group assignments. I'd like to take a root-and-branch trawl through R-U106 for this kind of thing. But not until at least after Christmas! ? Brian - your thoughts are always welcome and networking never ceases to amaze me. I'm not sure how to take all this forward right now, but I'll try to bear it in mind. ? Cheers, ? Iain. |
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Re: TMRCA of R-L151 and timing its growth
开云体育Hi Iain ? This is a really impressive piece of work to be pulled together. ? I do remember that in September this year there was a 4-day Symposium at Heidelberg in Germany held under the auspices of EMBO [European Molecular Biology Organisation] where anyone who was anyone in the Ancient DNA academic bioanalytical world seemed to be turning up.? ? I don’t know if you went to that forum, or whether any abstracts or summaries of the presentations made are available, but I can’t help but feel otherwise you need to make sure you can get to that type of forum in future and present this type of data.? It deserves to heard there, as does FTDNA’s work on dating SNPs.? If you want to tap into external expertise across Europe – it was there. ?
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? This is the link to the topics of the individual speakers. ?
? One of the Scientific organisers was Pontus Skoglund from the Francis Crick Institute – and he would be worthwhile for you / us to try and befriend.? I did manage an hour with Sir Paul Nurse at the Crick in about July 2024, but since then he has announced he is going back to being President of the Royal Society.? I suspect the scientific establishment felt there was no better person to fight their corner for science with this Labour government than him, when combined with Sir Patrick Vallance.? If I can help make this happen, and if you think it would be worthwhile – I am willing to help. I am that much closer to the Crick than you are. ? I do have one other reason for contacting Pontus Skoglund.? I happen to know that some bone samples from excavations of skeletons at Whitesand Bay in Pembrokeshire are down to be analysed by his group.? The lady who led the archaeology dig over 3+ seasons in Pembrokeshire was Katie Hemer, then of Sheffield University but now of University College, London.? This chapel at Whitesand Bay was the traditional site from where St. Patrick sailed to convert the Irish to Christianity.? Given my longstanding interests in Pembrokeshire, I try to keep an eye open as to what is happening with these samples.? The skeletons date to the 6th-11th centuries by carbon-14 dating.? I have yet to try and recontact her since she moved south – but this paper might help provide the excuse to do that. ?
? Trust this helps ? Brian ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Iain via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2024 11:31 To: [email protected] Subject: [R1b-U106] TMRCA of R-L151 and timing its growth Dear all I've updated the with a new section looking at the origins of R-L151 in relation to ancient DNA and its archaeological surroundings. Our (very!) old U106+ family member PNL001 was buried 2892 BC, and sets the minimum age for R-U106 and, by inference, R-L151. I've used the argument that we don't see any R-L151 basal clades that look like they come from outside the Corded Ware Culture (e.g. are found only in easternmost Europe or west Asia) and the need to have the R-ZZ11 (-> U152, DF27) spilt inside the Corded Ware Culture as limits to the oldest possible R-L151 date. From this, I get the TMRCA of R-L151 to be 3115 BC, with confidence intervals at 3222-3029 BC (68% c.i.), 3366-2972 BC (95% c.i.) and 3507-2937 BC (99.5% c.i.). These are much narrower than the dates Family Tree DNA gives (95% c.i. = 3754 - 2409 BC). Contrary to my previous expectations, this really means that R-L151 was probably reasonably well established before the CWC migrations happened, and that it might have been at about the split of R-P312, R-U106, R-S1194 and R-A8053 that the CWC migration begins. This young family of a few generations might still be small enough to travel together, or otherwise be small enough that any lines remaining where they came from were able to die out. I'm a little shaky on the archeaology here, since it's not my area of expertise. I'd appreciate any input that people have on the ideas behind it. Cheers Iain |
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
开云体育Let me give a further comment on this issue – as it is important and will continue to swirl around for the foreseeable future. ? At the bottom of any individual’s STR results is this disclaimer posted by FTDNA: ? Read before you download:?We are committed to protecting the privacy of our customers. By downloading any raw data or reports, you hereby indicate that you are the owner of that data or have permission to download the data, and you further indicate your understanding that FamilyTreeDNA cannot in any way guarantee the security or privacy of your downloaded data. Furthermore, you understand that by uploading your raw data to a third party application and linking it to your name, FamilyTreeDNA kit number, email address, or any other identifying information, the security of your raw data and record is further put at risk and may lead to the violation of FamilyTreeDNA Privacy Policy. By downloading your raw data, you assume the liability for any breach of privacy and release FamilyTreeDNA from any privacy violation that results either directly or indirectly from the downloaded raw data and/or upload to a third party application. ? ---------------- ? On the other hand, we are faced with the practical problem of how you run a Y-DNA surname project.? I run the Swann/Swan DNA Project in an Excel Spreadsheet.? This is a common enough surname and too large you can never run it as a One-Name project. You can add extra information in a Spreadsheet in terms of columns.? If people spend money on a DNA test – especially a BigY-700 test – they want to see how their DNA results fit in to a wider picture. ? At the top of this Spreadsheet, I have placed the following wording: ? PLEASE NOTE: THIS SPREADSHEET IS INTENDED FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY AND SHOULD NOT BE UPLIFTED TO ANY WEBSITE. IT CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL PERSONAL INFORMATION ON LIVING PEOPLE. FAILURE TO HEED THIS REQUEST MAY LEAD TO AN INDIVIDUAL BEING HELD IN BREACH OF THE GENERAL DATA PROTECTION REGULATIONS (GDPR) WHICH APPLY ACROSS EUROPE, EVEN TO EXTERNAL PARTIES. ? Personally, I would have no problem in signing something like this as a Surname Project Administrator if it would allow me to make changes to the EKA information about male testers in this surname project.? Otherwise, why are we doing all this except to make such progress.? I just want the minimal amount of hassle to be able to do this quickly, and the current ‘Advanced’ versus ‘Limited’ system is anything but. ? There is also the separate argument that disclosing Y-STR or Y-SNP data to anyone, has low biomedical implications, in my opinion. What criminals want are the personal names, addresses and associated email addresses. ? ---------- ? How you manage autosomal DNA results is a separate set of questions – and is why I have run the Swan(n) Surname Project as a ‘Closed’ DNA Project – you cannot join without saying why you want to join and why you are interested in the surname.? I try to make it clear that we will not be able to give them much practical help to such autosomal folk beyond pointing them towards videos and other information. ? There is a residual pool of old Kits, before my time as an administrator – which are essentially orbiting space junk. They date back to the early days of autosomal DNA testing. ? -------- ? What is likely to hit the headlines over here is if 23andMe goes bankrupt, and who will then curate its genetic data pool [?].? This company (Atlas Biomedical) - which I had never heard of before, caused national headlines a couple of months ago when it went bankrupt – but it does seem to have had links to Russia in its business model. ? . ? Someone has to be prepared to shoulder this risk about making changes to the EKA, whilst minimising the hassle involved in making such changes.? I am suggesting this is one way of making such information better than the current system.? But it all depends on FTDNA and what is involved practically in terms of computer programming in making something like this possible. ? Maybe David Vance could start to take this on in his new role [?]. ? Brian ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Joe Fox via groups.io
Sent: 16 December 2024 04:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Is your EKA information accurate? ? After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't see how to convey the information properly. ? Joe Fox |
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
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After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't see how to convey the information properly.
Joe Fox
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
That is a fascinating project, Belinda, and demonstrates what can be accomplished with a few motivated participants. I am curious to know what your thoughts are on the discrepancy between the Globetrekker account of the migration of L745, where S552 lands in Kent ca. 2500 BCE, and the accepted historical narrative of Alan Fitz Flaad the Breton knight. Globetrekker puts S775 in Shropshire by 1750 BCE. Has anyone considered that the lineage might have sojourned in Cornwall before migrating to Brittany? Cheers, Roy On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 at 14:56, Belinda Dettmann <belindadettmann@...> wrote:
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
Sorry. Useless is the wrong word. Less useful than a complete record would be more exact. I am admin of the Stewart DNA Project, where we are lucky enough to be able to define royal Stewart descendants from their Y-DNA signature and their SNPs. The project holds 275 royal Stewarts at present, and these are known to descend from Walter Stewart, Third High Steward of Scotland, R-L746, d 1246.? However we have just 8 testers who can trace their lineage back to him through every generation, and these have proved crucial to our research, as they represent 8 different named ancestral lines, who can be recognised through specific SNPs. If we didn't know the exact lineages we couldn't identify which line was which. I think the testers in those lineages represent about half of our total royal Stewarts, though I haven't counted them lately, so we have plenty of room for improvement. At one stage testers with the Y67 signature started naming their EKA as Alexander 4th High Steward, or his ancestor, Alan Fitz Flaad, but we discouraged that practice as the intermediate links were unknown and it was not helpful in identifying lineages within the family. It was far more useful to identify the EKA with a known pedigree.
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Belinda
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