Re: Recruiting testers in the UK
That is the problem with the YSEQ testing route -- it is highly cost effective for us, but offers no incentive for potential testers. To have a reasonable chance of success, we need to offer to pay for the Big Y-700, and must try to present questions of interest to the people we are soliciting.
My only successes in recruiting testers who have distantly related UK lineages is with folks who live in Australia -- they have an interest in proving their English heritage. In one of these, I was successful in using the YSEQ route.
Bruce
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 04:20:41 PM PDT, Charles Acree <acreegenealogy@...> wrote:
On another topic, two responders commented that they had tried unsuccessfully to recruit testers living in the UK, even after offering to pay for their tests.
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In behalf of our Acree Surname Project last year, following careful research, I wrote, via international mail, twenty men with variants of our surname who currently live in historic Lancashire, England, requesting them to test for two specific Y-SNPs at YSEQ, leading to proven lineages. We offered not only to pay for their testing ($40 total), but, as further inducement, to arrange for anonymous testing if they desired, using myself as an intermediary.
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None of the men replied, even to decline. I thought that I had written a nice letter, expressing gratitude for their consideration of our request; but it was totally disregarded.
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I can¡¯t blame them. It would have been entirely for our Project¡¯s benefit--finding crucial matches in a specific geographic area to gratify would-be, distant relatives across the Atlantic. ?There was absolutely nothing in it for them, particularly since the highly-specific testing, if the two Y-SNP tests both proved negative, would not have gained them alternative matches.
?
From our perspective, it was high stakes and a disappointing failure. Success may well have added a couple hundred years to the alternative lineages.
?
While it¡¯s possible that men living in the UK have become increasingly wary of DNA testing, for whatever reason, I derive no general lesson here and can only blame myself for being insufficiently convincing in soliciting a favor from strangers.
?
Charles Acree, Administrator, Acree Surname DNA Project ?
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Recruiting testers in the UK
On another topic, two responders commented that they had tried unsuccessfully to recruit testers living in the UK, even after offering to pay for their tests.
?
In behalf of our Acree Surname Project last year, following careful research, I wrote, via international mail, twenty men with variants of our surname who currently live in historic Lancashire, England, requesting them to test for two specific Y-SNPs at YSEQ, leading to proven lineages. We offered not only to pay for their testing ($40 total), but, as further inducement, to arrange for anonymous testing if they desired, using myself as an intermediary.
?
None of the men replied, even to decline. I thought that I had written a nice letter, expressing gratitude for their consideration of our request; but it was totally disregarded.
?
I can¡¯t blame them. It would have been entirely for our Project¡¯s benefit--finding crucial matches in a specific geographic area to gratify would-be, distant relatives across the Atlantic. ?There was absolutely nothing in it for them, particularly since the highly-specific testing, if the two Y-SNP tests both proved negative, would not have gained them alternative matches.
?
From our perspective, it was high stakes and a disappointing failure. Success may well have added a couple hundred years to the alternative lineages.
?
While it¡¯s possible that men living in the UK have become increasingly wary of DNA testing, for whatever reason, I derive no general lesson here and can only blame myself for being insufficiently convincing in soliciting a favor from strangers.
?
Charles Acree, Administrator, Acree Surname DNA Project ?
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Re: Possible New Haplogroup
I did mistype the SNP in my original post. It is FTE49099 not FTE49009. This may have created confusion, and I apologize.
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Ed
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Re: Possible New Haplogroup
Well, sometimes I hate it when I'm right. My two cousins have formed a separate haplogroup, leaving me (to quote a past pop song) "alone again, naturally". It really is odd to look at the block tree and see the space that is my haplogroup completely blank.
?
Ed
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Thanks Linda. I enjoyed reading your blog post. I have also tried to recruit testers from England without success even after offering to pay for the test. I have contacted just about every person that joined the BRYAN interest group on Wikitree without hearing back from anyone. I was able to recently get my OEHMANN 3rd cousin in Germany to do the BigY so that helpful. Regarding Morgan Bryan, I have started a separate Roots Magic project to try and document his descendants. Good luck with your research. - Carl
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Hi, Carl, I manage four cousins' kits in the Bryan surname project, two of them Big Y tests. Because of the matches between my two first cousins and a ninth cousin once removed--and a 5th cousin in betweener-- there is an opportunity for an interesting family study as we have relatively good paper pedigrees alongside the YDNA results.
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212555 --son of my mother's elder brother, has tested to 111 markers plus a SNP pack
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545965--son of my mother's younger brother --Big Y (at 111 STRs, 2 mutations different between these two male first cousins)
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d2095f84--fifth cousin, recruited to test in hope he would verify identity of 4th GG (he matched the two first cousins and verified my theory re 4th GG).
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503923--9th cousin once removed-Big Y;? recruited to test to verify match in the immigrant generation (he matched and the match verified the theory of which Bryan family we are part of--he descends from one immigrant brother Richard Bryant and the rest of us descend from Richard's brother John).
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I have many of the matches with my four test-takers on my family tree if you are interested in exploring kinships. Unfortunately the Bryan-surnamed fellow who in 2011 helped me figure out the Most Recent Common Ancestor between him and my cousin's kit 212555 has passed away and the fellow never upgraded to Big Y. The two of them match a cluster of fellows who didn't test beyond Y 67 or & 37.
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In terms of solving genealogy puzzles in my ancestry, I? have been very happy with the return on investment from sponsoring these tests. The first one listed--done in 2011--disproved the theory that our Bryans were part of a famous Bryan family represented by an immigrant named Morgan Bryan; these Bryans also are connected by marriage to Daniel Boone.
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I didn't mention my Bryan success stories in this blog posting I did for Genetic Genealogy Ireland--because I haven't yet found a Bryan-surnamed man in the UK or Ireland interested in taking me up on my free-kit offer on ISOGG's website.
?
?
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All my ancestors arrived in British colonial America before the Revolutionary War. Sponsored YDNA testing has helped find cousins in the country of origin with respect to my Horton and Sprowl/Sproule cousins, something I never could have done with autosomal testing.( I have had some English matches but considering the distance in kinship, it is difficult to identify the common ancestor).
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The MacKay match was just plain lucky because the Scots MacKay had tested two years before my Kentucky McKay tested --and the two matched.
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On 07/25/2024 3:15 PM EDT Carl Oehmann <carleoehmann@...> wrote:
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Bruce, I have good data for 33 BigY testers in our FGC54211 subgroup (downstream from Z18) in our BRYAN surname project. All have a value of 12. A smaller sample of 6 testers at the BY30097 level have values between 10 and 14. So there is some mutation over time but for a recent haplogroup, FTY285 appears stable. I am not aware of any published data on these "bonus STRs" I hope this is helpful information. -Carl
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Bruce, I have good data for 33 BigY testers in our FGC54211 subgroup (downstream from Z18) in our BRYAN surname project. All have a value of 12. A smaller sample of 6 testers at the BY30097 level have values between 10 and 14. So there is some mutation over time but for a recent haplogroup, FTY285 appears stable. I am not aware of any published data on these "bonus STRs" I hope this is helpful information. -Carl
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Have mutation rates been published for any of the Big Y-700 "bonus" Y-STRs? I am looking for information on FTY285.
?
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Re: YFull says I'm R-Y340824
Hey Bertram,
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Probably doesn't mean anything, but it is interesting that Farnham Royal is only 35 miles by road from my ancestral location of Crondall, Hampshire.
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Shane
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Re: Re?:Re: [R1b-U106] #AncientDNA - Merovingian period in Flanders (Belgium)
#AncientDNA
Thanks Ewenn for this clear explanation. I didn't know the Galton-Watson process, very interesting.
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Re: YFull says I'm R-Y340824
Hi Shane,?
?
I confirm I am your closest match on Yfull. And I don't understand either why Yfull says we are R-Y340824 when we are located in the Yfull tree at basal R-FGC17465 and not downstream R-Y340824.
?
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Re: #AncientDNA - Merovingian period in Flanders (Belgium)
#AncientDNA
Kevin, I was one of the first to join the Terry group. I have some Irish ancestry, but I don¡¯t think it is paternal. I have a pretty good understanding of my paternal line back to the 1400s in Crondall, Hampshire. Interestingly, it seems my name is locational in origin for a place called Torre somewhere in or near Aldershot. Goes against every explanation for the surname I¡¯ve ever seen.
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On Jul 24, 2024, at 2:11 PM, Kevin Terry <kevintyrry@...> wrote:
? Just curious Shane. Do you have any Tarry or Terry Irish matches in the last 1000 years?
--
Kevin Terry
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Re: #AncientDNA - Merovingian period in Flanders (Belgium)
#AncientDNA
Shane. Have you joined the Terry DNA surname project??
--
Kevin Terry
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Re: #AncientDNA - Merovingian period in Flanders (Belgium)
#AncientDNA
Just curious Shane. Do you have any Tarry or Terry Irish matches in the last 1000 years?
--
Kevin Terry
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Big Y matches not in block tree
Hello!
When blocks on the block tree show zero matches ("DNA Matches 0"), does that mean people in those blocks have more than 30 non-matching SNPs?? Or is there another reason for blocks to show zero matches?
Conversely, what is the reason that Big Y matches don't show up on the Big Y block tree?? Is it because they are matches - having less than 30 non-matching SNPs - but aren't closely enough related on the Y-haplotree to be shown in the block tree?
Thank you!!!
Mary
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Re: YFull says I'm R-Y340824
That's what I thought but wanted to make sure I understood correctly. The match is a Verdun who I was aware of on FTDNA. It seems that YFull has found a subclade (R-Y340824) that does not appear on FTDNA? The Verdun has other downstream subclades that I do not match.
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Re: YFull says I'm R-Y340824
These companies compare your DNA to your matches.? It sounds like you have a closer match at YFull than you have at FTDNA.
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On Jul 23, 2024, at 10:41?PM, Shane Tarry <smdtarry@...> wrote:
? YFull describes my Hg Variants as FGC17465*, R-Y340824. Odd that it doesn't say I'm FGC17460. TMRCA is given as 1650 ybp (about 550 years after FGC17460). Can someone please explain what all this means?
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Shane
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YFull describes my Hg Variants as FGC17465*, R-Y340824. Odd that it doesn't say I'm FGC17460. TMRCA is given as 1650 ybp (about 550 years after FGC17460). Can someone please explain what all this means?
?
Shane
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Re: Re?:Re: [R1b-U106] #AncientDNA - Merovingian period in Flanders (Belgium)
#AncientDNA
Hi Bertram,
Indeed, KOS015 possibly remains pre-R-FGC17460. As to the probability of this being the case, compared to the other possibilities, I am certainly not competent enough to decide the question. I was only expressing a personal opinion, not necessarily informed.
Regarding aDNA, the DNA recovered is very fragmented, partial, and partly altered. This is due both to the processes of DNA degradation over time, but also to sampling and analysis techniques. Consequently, the status of this aDNA for a large number of SNPs remains undetermined (no calls).
Regarding R-FGC17460, the TMRCA of this haplogroup is currently estimated around 200 BCE [650 BCE, 200 CE] 95% CI. The dating of KOS015 is around 800 CE [710 CE, 888 CE] (radiocarbon dating). Or somewhere around 1000 years after the most recent common ancestor of all R-FGC17460+ testers.
Without being in any way a specialist, I suppose that the probability of extinction (according to the Galton-Watson process) of the other potential branches coming from the R-FGC17460 block (therefore divergent between R-FGC17465 and the MRCA of R- FGC17460, between perhaps 1500 BCE and 200 BCE) was probably very high, and close to 1, around 800 CE.
There is however, in my humble opinion, nothing certain, and you are potentially right that KOS015 could be pre-R-FGC17460. With luck, and the addition of new testers to the Y tree, creating new branches, and the identification of new associated SNPs, perhaps FTDNA will be one day able to refine the placement of KOS015.
Ewenn
Hi Ewenn,
This kind of analysis take some time, thanks a lot for this.
Why do you think it is probably unlikely that KOS015 belong to a "pre-R-FGC17460" ?? With only 2 positive SNPs out of 11 SNPs, I would tend to think it is highly probable.
It is true that there is also a low rate of positive SNPs among the higher levels, FGC17465 and above, and I believe that it is generally the case with ancient DNA.
Bertram?
Le lun., juil. 22, 2024 ¨¤ 5:46, Ewenn Erratum: *KOS015 could possibly belong to R-FTC75933, a branch for which it only has NO reads for the 11 equivalent SNPs of this block.
Hi Bertram, Shane,
?
Yes, indeed, FTDNA should, in principle, and to my knowledge, have checked these clades / SNPs downstream of R-FGC17460. Similarly, FTDNA also checks, in principle, for a possible match with Private Variants of downstream testers.
?
I tried to perform on my side an analysis of the KOS015¡¯s fastQ file, in comparison with the current version of the FTDNA¡¯s Y-DNA Haplotree (2024-07-20). I find the same result. In details:
Consistent path from A-PR2921 (root) to R-L151 (including with R-PF6538, intermediate clade between R-P310 and R-L151, which only appears at Yfull).
?
R-U106 and downstream clades?: consistent path to R-FGC17460?:
-
R-U106?:
-
R-FGC3861?:
-
R-S1855?:
-
R-FGC17465?:
-
FGC17465 1 positive read (BQ:0, mapQ:60, 51M, 5th position from the 3¡¯end of the aDNA¡¯s segment)
-
FGC68717 1 positive read (BQ:23, mapQ:12, 67M)
-
R-FGC17460?:
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A4654 1 positive read (BQ:37, mapQ:60, 78M)
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FGC17472 1 positive read (BQ:BQ:37, mapQ:29, 69M)
Downstream of R-FGC17460?: only negative (37/272 SNPs) or no reads. For equivalent SNPs to the current 6 known child haplogroups of R-FGC17460 (NOTA?: 2 currently unnamed branches, from England and Ireland, not taken into account):
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R-FTA62881 (3 negative reads / 3 SNPs)
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R-BY11544 (3 negative reads / 3 SNPs)
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R-FTC75933 (terminal haplogroup, only no reads)
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R-FT115916 (1 negative read / FT113203)
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R-BY122236 (5 negative reads / 5 SNPs)
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R-FGC17464 (6 negative reads / 4 SNPs)
?
As a result, it seems to me quite likely that KOS015 does not belong to the 5 child branches for which we have negative reads. It is however not totally impossible that KOS015 could belong to an extinct or unidentified branch splitting one of these blocks of equivalent SNPs. KOS015 could possibly belong to R-FTC75933, a branch for which it only has negative reads at the 11 equivalent SNPs. Finally, KOS015 could potentially belong to an unidentified or extinct branch downstream of R-FGC17460. With 2 positive SNPs out of 11 SNPs equivalent to R-FGC17460, and only no reads for the other 9 SNPs in this haplogroup, it is however not totally impossible (but probably unlikely) that KOS015 could be a "pre-R-FGC17460". In other words, that this aDNA belongs to an unidentified or extinct branch that would potentially split the R-FGC17460 block in two.
?
Ewenn
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Re?:Re: [R1b-U106] #AncientDNA - Merovingian period in Flanders (Belgium)
#AncientDNA
Hi Ewenn,
This kind of analysis take some time, thanks a lot for this.
Why do you think it is probably unlikely that KOS015 belong to a "pre-R-FGC17460" ?? With only 2 positive SNPs out of 11 SNPs, I would tend to think it is highly probable.
It is true that there is also a low rate of positive SNPs among the higher levels, FGC17465 and above, and I believe that it is generally the case with ancient DNA.
Le lun., juil. 22, 2024 ¨¤ 5:46, Ewenn <gwenng008@...> a ¨¦crit: Erratum: *KOS015 could possibly belong to R-FTC75933, a branch for which it only has NO reads for the 11 equivalent SNPs of this block.
Hi Bertram, Shane,
?
Yes, indeed, FTDNA should, in principle, and to my knowledge, have checked these clades / SNPs downstream of R-FGC17460. Similarly, FTDNA also checks, in principle, for a possible match with Private Variants of downstream testers.
?
I tried to perform on my side an analysis of the KOS015¡¯s fastQ file, in comparison with the current version of the FTDNA¡¯s Y-DNA Haplotree (2024-07-20). I find the same result. In details:
Consistent path from A-PR2921 (root) to R-L151 (including with R-PF6538, intermediate clade between R-P310 and R-L151, which only appears at Yfull).
?
R-U106 and downstream clades?: consistent path to R-FGC17460?:
-
R-U106?:
-
R-FGC3861?:
-
R-S1855?:
-
R-FGC17465?:
-
FGC17465 1 positive read (BQ:0, mapQ:60, 51M, 5th position from the 3¡¯end of the aDNA¡¯s segment)
-
FGC68717 1 positive read (BQ:23, mapQ:12, 67M)
-
R-FGC17460?:
-
A4654 1 positive read (BQ:37, mapQ:60, 78M)
-
FGC17472 1 positive read (BQ:BQ:37, mapQ:29, 69M)
Downstream of R-FGC17460?: only negative (37/272 SNPs) or no reads. For equivalent SNPs to the current 6 known child haplogroups of R-FGC17460 (NOTA?: 2 currently unnamed branches, from England and Ireland, not taken into account):
-
R-FTA62881 (3 negative reads / 3 SNPs)
-
R-BY11544 (3 negative reads / 3 SNPs)
-
R-FTC75933 (terminal haplogroup, only no reads)
-
R-FT115916 (1 negative read / FT113203)
-
R-BY122236 (5 negative reads / 5 SNPs)
-
R-FGC17464 (6 negative reads / 4 SNPs)
?
As a result, it seems to me quite likely that KOS015 does not belong to the 5 child branches for which we have negative reads. It is however not totally impossible that KOS015 could belong to an extinct or unidentified branch splitting one of these blocks of equivalent SNPs. KOS015 could possibly belong to R-FTC75933, a branch for which it only has negative reads at the 11 equivalent SNPs. Finally, KOS015 could potentially belong to an unidentified or extinct branch downstream of R-FGC17460. With 2 positive SNPs out of 11 SNPs equivalent to R-FGC17460, and only no reads for the other 9 SNPs in this haplogroup, it is however not totally impossible (but probably unlikely) that KOS015 could be a "pre-R-FGC17460". In other words, that this aDNA belongs to an unidentified or extinct branch that would potentially split the R-FGC17460 block in two.
?
Ewenn
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Charles Acree
Carl Oehmann
Linda R Horton
Kevin Terry
Ewenn