Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
clever clogs robot changed autosomal to autumnal. Thought you were being poetic for a minute, which would have been refreshing on this forum.
On Sun, 29 Dec 2024, 03:21 Michael Thompson via , <fastmike51= [email protected]> wrote: Hello,
I haven’t been around in awhile. But I did want to let the group know that I have documented evidence and genealogy that proves my two paternal family names Monsees and Stejles (Stelges, Stellges and Stelljes) come from the Hanover district in Germany. They immigrated to the US in the 1800s to New York, Missouri and Maryland. They are still localized in those places.I have numerous Autumnal matches from many family members from eight generations back to the present. Lain or someone in the group can you update me on my new haplo group as far as origin and the current TMRC.. ? Thank you
Michael Thompson Test FTdan 378155 Haplogroup R-Y49873
I suggest we wait until David Vance gets his feet under his new desk at FTDNA, and also until the 2nd edition of this book gets published, which should not be that far away into 2025, so I am told. ?
? As I posted initially whether the computer programming at FTDNA can be modified to accommodate this desire will be the practical limitation of turning such ideas into reality. But it will be a theme we will
return to as this whole area moves forwards. ? Brian ?
?
That's an interesting point Joe - we have the Graves family association data as well which can push their DNA connections to a specific genealogy. While I don't have all of the paperwork since we're the second generation of the project,
we certainly have well established paper genealogies AND the projects related to the DNA lines. Ross and I often know much more about their genealogies than the individuals submitting to our project do, and can group them accordingly.?
Iain, if that data from the Graves family association project?would be useful to you, please let me know. After January 2025 though please - I'm super busy this time of year due to my annual work conference.?
?
After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own
results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except
that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't
see how to convey the information properly. ?
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
Hello,
I haven’t been around in awhile. But I did want to let the group know that I have documented evidence and genealogy that proves my two paternal family names Monsees and Stejles (Stelges, Stellges and Stelljes) come from the Hanover district in Germany. They immigrated to the US in the 1800s to New York, Missouri and Maryland. They are still localized in those places.I have numerous Autumnal matches from many family members from eight generations back to the present. Lain or someone in the group can you update me on my new haplo group as far as origin and the current TMRC.. ? Thank you
Michael Thompson Test FTdan 378155 Haplogroup R-Y49873
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On Dec 28, 2024, at 12:20?AM, Brian Swann via groups.io <brian_swann@...> wrote:
I suggest we wait until David Vance gets his feet under his new desk at FTDNA, and also until the 2nd edition of this book gets published, which should not be that far away into 2025, so I am told. ?
? As I posted initially whether the computer programming at FTDNA can be modified to accommodate this desire will be the practical limitation of turning such ideas into reality. But it will be a theme we will
return to as this whole area moves forwards. ? Brian ?
?
That's an interesting point Joe - we have the Graves family association data as well which can push their DNA connections to a specific genealogy. While I don't have all of the paperwork since we're the second generation of the project,
we certainly have well established paper genealogies AND the projects related to the DNA lines. Ross and I often know much more about their genealogies than the individuals submitting to our project do, and can group them accordingly.?
Iain, if that data from the Graves family association project?would be useful to you, please let me know. After January 2025 though please - I'm super busy this time of year due to my annual work conference.?
?
After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own
results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except
that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't
see how to convey the information properly. ?
|
For informational disclosure to those who have added there data, I have implemented a more advanced Study (Project) system than the one discussed here in the past.
All men who are test with SNPS at or below have been added to a Private R-U106 study of which only Investigators (Admins) have been added to demo the functionality. ?If any of the other current R1b-U106 or Subclade admins who have accounts in the warehouse want to preview this, let me know and I will add you to the Investigator list.
Anyone with an account can access this from the Studies tab from their Manage Subject screen. ?There are Prefs settings that you can turn on or off the details on the Member list. ?Currently only members of the Study can see anything, but if it's made public it will behave more like my .
If anyone has questions or feedback, this is a still in active development MVP feature.
Thanks,
James Kane
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
Your modesty aside, I don't think that a paragraph for a Wikipedia article would be subject to the same rigorous review as an academic journal. Or at any rate the custodians would be more open to discussion. To illustrate the point, in order to confirm my descent from an illegitimate son of the architect Sir William Bruce, I had to do a deep dive into the records. When I was satisfied that the link was confirmed by better than a preponderance of evidence, I added the information to the Wikipedia article on Bruce. Nobody raised any objections.
Moreover, I would suggest that a judicious leveraging of AI could push your project forward at a rate you might not have anticipated otherwise. I am using it for my physics projects and am rewriting the Yback machine in Python thanks to AI to incorporate libraries used in academic research. Cheers, Roy
Hi Roy, ? If I thought I could write something on the topic that would get past peer review, I would try! This is many steps below that, and it's not just references that are needed. A much more mathematical model to deal with these issues is sorely needed, but to create one properly would take me, I think, a second PhD. For now, this is just my garden-shed tinkering, given to the group in the hope of provoking discussion and raising interest. ? Cheers, ? Iain.
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
Hi Roy, ? If I thought I could write something on the topic that would get past peer review, I would try! This is many steps below that, and it's not just references that are needed. A much more mathematical model to deal with these issues is sorely needed, but to create one properly would take me, I think, a second PhD. For now, this is just my garden-shed tinkering, given to the group in the hope of provoking discussion and raising interest. ? Cheers, ? Iain.
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
PS. The Wikipedia article on L151 is lacking a reference for the text that mentions this phase of the migration (see below). Iain, why not make revision to the text based on your study, with references, and see if it passes peer review. -R
?
"This haplogroup is related to the period of or , and possibly founded 3,000 years before our era in the Central part of Europe (possible region).[]"
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
I suggest we wait until David Vance gets his feet under his new desk at FTDNA, and also until the 2nd edition of this book gets published, which should not be that far away into 2025, so I am told.
?
?
As I posted initially whether the computer programming at FTDNA can be modified to accommodate this desire will be the practical limitation of turning such ideas into reality. But it will be a theme we will
return to as this whole area moves forwards.
?
Brian
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of cfbandit via groups.io
Sent: 27 December 2024 23:10
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Is your EKA information accurate?
?
That's an interesting point Joe - we have the Graves family association data as well which can push their DNA connections to a specific genealogy. While I don't have all of the paperwork since we're the second generation of the project,
we certainly have well established paper genealogies AND the projects related to the DNA lines. Ross and I often know much more about their genealogies than the individuals submitting to our project do, and can group them accordingly.?
Iain, if that data from the Graves family association project?would be useful to you, please let me know. After January 2025 though please - I'm super busy this time of year due to my annual work conference.?
?
After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own
results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except
that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't
see how to convey the information properly.
?
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
Hi Iain and friends, This updated version of your phylogeography study is a considerable advance and raises interesting questions, most notably the issue of whether CWC is a Baden culture mediated migration through Pannonia via the Danube, or the result of a march across the North European Plain incorporating elements of the preceding Funnel Beaker and Globular Amphora cultures. I thought it would be interesting to explore the relationship of PNL001 to other DNA samples to determine the degree of common admixture or shared segments with representatives of other roughly contemporary populations. I will let the plots do most of the talking.
I would like to have explored PNL001's relationships, but alas, the MTA database does not have a profile for PNL001, so I have resorted to using a possibly related sample labelled PNL002, which was excavated from the same site. The PCA chart provided with the sample is too cluttered to be of much use, unfortunately. Instead we will refer to a plot of the PCA matches on a map. 
The plot does not afford much detail. On the other hand, the samples on an admixture plot are fully identified. Here is a plot of admixture matches to PNL002 dating from 5000 to 3000 BC.  There is a cluster of admixture matches along the Dnieper which might be identified as pre-Maykop or even within the Globular Amphora horizon. THe plot shows definite affinities to Baltic populations, and a strong signal from potentially Funnel Beaker demographics in Jutland.
In the subsequent 1500 years the admixture matches cluster strongly in Bohemia and the Harz region (Leubingen and Quedlingen), exhibting a significant Unetiice continuity. Only two matches occur in Eurasia, one of them in a Fatyanovo context.
Actual segment matches are too sparse to afford any meaningful historical insights.  If anything is to be deduced from the admixture plots for this proxy sample it is probably that the sequence of migrations which culminated in the community of which L151 was a member adopted a route into Europe via the North European Plain, as it carried with it genetic material it had acquired through associations with cultures in central Eurasia and the Baltic that may have been mediated through contact with Globular Amphora groups, and others as well, including Funnel Beaker populations.
The community where PNL001 and PNL002 were excavated lies along the Elbe in Bohemia, which in Czech is "Labe": hence, Plotiste nad Labem (PNL). It is very probable that the CWG settlers bearing L151 reached Bohemia by following the Elbe from what is now part of Germany. The study of rivernames as clues to prehistoric migration was pioneered by the linguist Hans Krahe. A paper recently appeared revising Krahe's etymologies of a few rivers, among them the Elbe. The new etymology traces the name to a proto-Germanic, and possibly proto-Indoeuropean word for "white" or "the white one". While there are no notable rapids on the Elbe, the river does pass through the Ore Mountains on the north side of Bohemia, which would certainly have been snow covered in winter. If the name is of such great antiquity, it may well have been coined by the first group of Indo-European speaking Corded Ware settlers to have reached Bohemia.
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Cheers, Roy
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Re: Is your EKA information accurate?
That's an interesting point Joe - we have the Graves family association data as well which can push their DNA connections to a specific genealogy. While I don't have all of the paperwork since we're the second generation of the project, we certainly have well established paper genealogies AND the projects related to the DNA lines. Ross and I often know much more about their genealogies than the individuals submitting to our project do, and can group them accordingly.?
Iain, if that data from the Graves family association project?would be useful to you, please let me know. After January 2025 though please - I'm super busy this time of year due to my annual work conference.?
Concetta Phillipps
After reading? the many comments to my post, I am inclined to agree with Brian that project administrators should be able to interpret a matching group's Y-DNA results and assign the common ancestor 's location. I can do this with my own results since I administer the Fox Project. I am 100% sure of the Wiltshire location and 95% sure he was Henrie Fox born about 1550 in Devizes, Wiltshire. There are other Foxes matching me with a much earlier ancestor but I don't yet know the location except that it was in England.? This is what project administrators are doing all the time with their matching groups but we don't interfere with an individual's own EKA assignment.? I think that Iain should be interested in these group location assignments but don't see how to convey the information properly.
Joe Fox
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
Thank you very much for all the work you continue to put into this!
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Re: Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
Ray's spreadsheet is a terrific resource. Perhaps a way can be found to automate updates with data from the Reich lab database. <> Otherwise, the article on East and West Mediterranean IE languages, which concludes that "the arrival of steppe ancestry in Spain, France and Italy was mediated by Bell Beaker populations of Western Europe, likely contributing to the emergence of the Italic and Celtic languages," echoes the conclusion of the linguist Hans Krahe some 70 years ago. He attributed the rise of Italic and related languages to a southern migration of proto-Italic speakers from central Europe, probably a population that was bordered by proto-Germanic and proto-Italic speakers before drifting into the Mediterranean habitat. See the figure below from the recent study. Several years ago I pointed this out to Kristiansen, one of the authors of the paper, and speculated further on the idea in my own study. Cheers, Roy
Hi,
Thanks for sharing the update. Just a question. When you add new individuals to the spreadsheet do you just add the data from the respective paper or what, for example, FTDNA might assign after its own review?? ? ?
I ask as there is one specific one of interest to me (since I'm downstream of it) that FTDNA have determined is positive for R-S11739 (downstream of R-DF98) that you show as just R-Z306.?
It is sample CGG100493 from Barrie 2024 found in Aalborg, Denmark.?
Cheers
Jamie
??
I have added these three individuals to my Ancient DNA spreadsheet at:
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Re: Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
Hi Ray
?
The old Anthrogenica forum was essentially replaced last year by the new GenArchivist forum:
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Jeremy
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Re: Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
Hi Ray,?
Thanks for doing that. Much appreciated.
Jamie
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I do try to place each sample as far down the tree as possible. I have moved the sample Jamie mentioned and cited a Discover.familytreedna page for the clade assignment.
Not much work has been done on this page over the last year or so as my source for the papers (Anthrogenica) ceased operations. If anyone knows of another source for these papers, whether in their draft stage, or after peer-reviewed publication, I would
appreciate learning about it.
It would simply be too laborious?for me to go in pages to look up all of their Ancient/Medieval U106 samples to see if they have samples I have not discovered.?
Happy Holidays to everyone.
Ray
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Re: Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
I do try to place each sample as far down the tree as possible. I have moved the sample Jamie mentioned and cited a Discover.familytreedna page for the clade assignment.
Not much work has been done on this page over the last year or so as my source for the papers (Anthrogenica) ceased operations. If anyone knows of another source for these papers, whether in their draft stage, or after peer-reviewed publication, I would appreciate learning about it.
It would simply be too laborious?for me to go in pages to look up all of their Ancient/Medieval U106 samples to see if they have samples I have not discovered.?
Happy Holidays to everyone.
Ray
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
Hi Ed, ? Rather than re-analysing all the ancient DNA samples in detail, I've been relying on published data for broad assignments and Ray's spreadsheet for detailed calls. Published data tends to work off very incomplete trees like ISOGG's 2019/2020 tree. Ray's spreadsheet basically represents a U106-based subset of community efforts to update these calls to Family Tree DNA's haplotree. There's a lot of work gone into this, none of which I've done myself, so I can't comment on individual cases and calls. I can speak generally, however. ? Ancient DNA is much more degraded than the carefully preserved modern samples we supply to labs. Its sequences break and its individual molecules degrade. This means that what is recovered has a much lower number of reads and a much lower read quality than tests like BigY. If you applied quality thresholds from a modern test (like BigY) to ancient DNA, you would get extremely few calls - perhaps even none - so the quality at which we have to accept a SNP as positive or negative much be decreased. All this means that only a fraction of the SNPs we would call in a BigY test can be recovered from any ancient individual, and those SNPs are more likely to be false positives or negatives. ? The fraction of SNPs that are called is highly variable as well. Some individuals' DNA might be recovered well, others very poorly. In some cases only broad haplogroups like R1b can be determined; in others a very specific haplogroup can be assigned. Where specific haplogroups are assigned, this is often based on only two or three SNPs in a chain - e.g. M269, L151 and S6189, with the intervening SNPs remaining null. In this case, S6189 might be a false read, or a duplicate of an existing mutation. If the reads for S6189 are nevertheless convincing enough, it might be reasonable to call the sample as being in R-M269>L151>(P312)>S6189. ? However, if the only SNPs you are attempting to call are on the ISOGG tree, then this terminates at R-Z156, not including the R-S3311 branch at all. If the sample can be called S3311+, S3995+ and A10645+, for instance, then it's much more likely that the sample is R-M269>L151>(U106)>S3311>S3995>A10645, because there is a much more robust set of SNPs down this chain of haplogroups. ? Something along these lines probably happened for COL239, where the incompleteness of the ISOGG tree led to the original publication over-extending haplogroup calls beyond what could reasonably be justified, and where a more complete tree gives a true picture of where the sample actually lies. This suggests that it's probably worth periodically (~annually) going over all these thousands of ancient DNA samples and seeing whether the haplogroups they are called under are still valid. I'm not sure if FTDNA is actively doing this or not, but we might find that many of these calls that are just labelled "Z381" or "U106" can actually be placed into some of the minor clades that are occasionally discovered even today. ? Cheers, ? Iain.
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Re: Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
Hi,
Thanks for sharing the update. Just a question. When you add new individuals to the spreadsheet do you just add the data from the respective paper or what, for example, FTDNA might assign after its own review?? ? ?
I ask as there is one specific one of interest to me (since I'm downstream of it) that FTDNA have determined is positive for R-S11739 (downstream of R-DF98) that you show as just R-Z306.?
It is sample CGG100493 from Barrie 2024 found in Aalborg, Denmark.?
Cheers
Jamie
??
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Show quoted text
I have added these three individuals to my Ancient DNA spreadsheet at:
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Re: Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
I have added these three individuals to my Ancient DNA spreadsheet at:
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
Iain,
?
Thanks for mentioning COL239 in your paper, as that is undoubtedly a huge find for those of us who fall below R-S3311 on the haplotree. I am hoping that the algorithm used for the Globetrekker mapping will one day take COL239 into account and adjust the mapping accordingly.
?
That said, I do have a question as to the haplogroup of COL239. You have him listed as “Z156>S3311” and the Discover Haplogroup Reports have him as A10645. However, the actual report (if I read it correctly) put forth by Fischer and the others, has COL239 listed as being positive for R-S6189, which is under P312. Could you please reassure my mind by explaining how the original paper and FTDNA can be so different in their analysis?
?
Thanks again, and I hope all is going better for you and yours.
?
Ed
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Re: Bronze Age spread of R-U106 from ancient DNA
On Thursday, December 26, 2024 at 09:27:47 AM CST, Iain via groups.io <gubbins@...> wrote:
Hi Shane, ? R-FGC3861 doesn't have any ancient DNA until about 200 AD, so we can't use ancient DNA to understand the first few thousand years of its history. We instead will have to infer it from the other haplogroups. Stay tuned. ? Cheers, ? Iain.
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Re: Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
Very interesting to see that Eske Willersev now seems to have dual assignments:
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- Lundbeck Foundation GeoGenetics Center, Globe Institute, University of Copenhagen
- GeoGenetics Group, Department of Zoology, University of Cambridge, 83 Cambridge, UK
?
?
This attribution seems to be correct – which (for me and other folk living in the UK) is really interesting to know!
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He is described here as the Group Leader, so I guess he has a dual appointment at Copenhagen and at Cambridge.
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Brian
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Dan D. via groups.io
Sent: 26 December 2024 02:55
To: R1b-u106 Groups IO <[email protected]>
Subject: [R1b-U106] Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages | bioRxiv
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cfbandit