On Feb 14, 2017, at 5:22 PM, Peter Latham peter.latham1@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:

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?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? 15 February 2017 ???

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Dear Ray, Chris, Jim and Cynthia,

I have tried to find some source materials for you in my childhood part of Lancashire.? The largest local town is Wigan which boomed in the mid nineteenth century with coal mining and cotton mills sucking in people from surrounding towns and villages plus Irish immigrants.? Some Wigan sources may be of help especially to our US colleagues.? At random I have looked at the 1881 census for Wigan at

In 1881 the population of the Borough of Wigan was 48,192 (excluding surrounding districts) as noted in the Wigan Year book for 1889 taken from the 'Wigan World' useful local history website.

Upholland is about 4 miles from Wigan.? Lathom is about 8 miles from Wigan.

In the 1881 census reference you will see that Liptrot was the 8th top surname by population with 53 plus separately listed Liptrott 7, and Lipha 5.? Trap nil.

Graves variants were: Graves 1; Greaves 6; Greives 6; Greeves 4.

Sexton was 2.

Cunliffe variants were: Cungliff 4; Cunlif 11; Cunliffe 13; Cunnif 2.

Warburtons were 2.

Latham was 115; Lathom 7.? Leatham or other variants nil.

I guess that with an Atlas you could do a similar exercise for other Lancashire towns.

The Wigan World website and magazine is a useful source for seeking out contacts.? There had been a rIft in my paternal family 2 generations ago.? Through their columns I have found leads to trace distant relations.

In the late medieval period Wigan is estimated to have had a population of 2,500 - 3 ,000:

For a general background there is quite a good Wikipedia history of Wigan which includes some evidence for its medieval Scandinavian links: .

I hope that this is some help.

Kind regards,????????????? Peter Latham.

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On Wednesday, 15 February 2017, 0:18, "Chris Noble avalea3@... [R1b-S6881]" <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:

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Cynthia,

? I used the medieval soldier site that Peter provided and I do see people serving with the surnames "Grave", "Greyve" and "Greve", all earlier forms of the surname Graves. I don't know if you can exactly tie them to your line but they are there!

As for Deborah, she can test her brother at YSEQ and get a better idea of where his SNP might be but then she will have to test again at FTDNA to get that SNP updated on his account?if that is something they want. They don't have to have it updated. If they find out what it is and let the U106 Admins know they will move him down to where he belongs in the U106 spreadsheet. So it is up to them how they want to go. But ultimately if they want to find out how they match up to the other Lathams it is going to take a BigY. The other way would be for Peter to put together a Latham panel at YSEQ but still, you are testing to his SNPs so it won't find the unique ones you have. That's the good, the bad and the ugly of the situation.

Chris

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 2:21 PM, prosperity200220815@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:

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This ancestral history exploration is absolutely fascinating. You each are very generous to share all this. I am jealous of course as we Graves still need to find our ancestral footprints in Lancashire. Our SNPs confirm we were there! If any of you catch a glimpse of us please point me in that direction. It remains our mystery still. We are stuck here with the death of Thomas Graves of Lincoln Cou ty, Georgia d.1805.

Peter, we have another Latham cousin link -to a William Carey Latham whose ancestor is Cornelius James Latham Sr. My brother has a 3 GD from him at Y67, my cousin a 1 GD.?They are new to genetic testing. What is clear is that our ancestors were in Lancashire and now we are all here, amazing!

Chris and Ray, might Deborah benefit by testing her brother more using the current S6881 Panel? I believe Ray included a some of our SNPs. Currently, WC is only --Predicted M269. We might be able to move them down the tree by doing so.

Your thoughts....

Cynthia

On Tuesday, 14 February 2017, 17:16, "'Jim Liptrap' jim@... [R1b-S6881]" <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:


? One more thought.? The Vikings are generally in the I haplotree, rather than the R tree.? I should think that most, if not all, natives of the British Isles will have some Viking ancestry, though not necessarily in the direct-male line.

Dupuytren's Contracture, also known as Viking Syndrome, does not appear to be transmitted patrilineally, Those with the condition include Ronald Reagan (Irish), Margaret [Roberts] Thatcher (Northumbrian Family), and Prince Joachim of Denmark (whose father is French).

It is fascinating that the Lathom estates in Lancashire began with a Viking Family supporting William the Conqueror.? But you say the estate fell to the Stanley Family when Isabel Lathom, last of the Viking family, died in 1414.? Most of our S6881 group appear to descend from the Saxon stock in the area who did not assume surnames until the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries, when they became necessary to identify the “common folk” on the estates for taxation purposes.? So our surnames are more likely to have been acquired from the places they lived, their occupations, or physical attributes.?

Best wishes always,Jim Liptrap

?From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:30 AM
To: R1b-S6881@...
Subject: [R1b-S6881] Re: Ancestral Surnames and BigY results ?? Just a few thoughts on your postings, in no particular order.

1. On the STR vs SNP discussion, I also am no expert, but my view is that SNP results are definitive, whilst STR results are only indicative. STR mutations are relatively frequent, and bi-directional. Two opposite mutations can cancel out. Also I believe you can have a double jump e.g from 11 to 13 at a particular marker. The upshot is that matches might be random, resulting from many cancelling mutations. I was always told that you need other reasons, such as shared surname or other known link, to verify an STR match. On the other hand we can be pretty sure a SNP match means we have two descendants of the person who originated that SNP.

So once you have found the most recent SNPs (shared and singletons) I don’t see the advantage of further STR testing of those individuals. For people yet to test I would use an STR test to identify if they are likely to be S6881, and then use the S6881 panel.

In time we should also have panels for the various S6881 subclades. These should give a better indication of the relationships between the various documented family trees, though whether they will help to identify missing links will depend if the relevant genealogical records are in existence. Im my Warburton One-Nmae study I have developed many family trees including about 7 in the Lancashire Group, and it is my hope that DNA may help me produce a tree of trees showing roughly when the trees converge.

2. In Peter’s Latham's history you mention both the Viking term Lathe, and Lathom as a place name. Is it possible that the place name came from the Viking word, and the surname, which would have originated much later, derives from the place? Warburton is a locative name from the village Warburton, but the village was named after a Saxon Saint, Werbergh.

3. I too think Mr S6881 was born in England, and until an S6881 branch is found on the continent this is the best working assumption. It is also clear that some of his descendants were in the village of Warburton. As the village was founded (possibly by Queen Ethelflaeda of Mercia) to guard a ford of the river Mersey I assume it would be populated by loyal Saxon subjects. This is my reason for thinking Mr S6881 was a Mercian. Also the dates of Mercia’s existence 515AD - 918AD encompass Iain’s dates for S6881.

When Warburton was founded the Mersey was the northern boarder of Mercia, and subject to Viking incursions (I believe these were Norwegian Vikings rather than Danes). However I’m not sure where the earlier boundary with Northumbria was. I suspect it was variable. So it is unclear whether the S6881s settled in Lancashire before England became a single entity in the 10th century of afterwards. In any event it was probably long before surnames were established. If Latham and Warburton are locative names it implies both places were home to Mr S6881s descendants at the time they were established.

4. Cynthia mentioned the Warburton - Graves link was ancient. There is a curious phenomenon that the S6881 tree indicates a Warburton - Warburton and a Graves - Graves link which are also ancient, clearly predating the adoption of surnames. In the Warburton case I presume that two descendants of an early Warburton villager independently adopted their old village name and finished up in the same area of Lancashire. Incidentally the earliest known presence of a Saxon Warburton in Lancashire (ignoring sons of the Norman Warburtons of Arley Hall) was a Thomas in Tottington (probably Stubbins Halll, Edenfield) who I calculated from Manorial records must have been born around 1490.

5. Peter’s mention of the Stanleys, Earls of Derby is interesting as Wise Piers Warburton, who founded Arley Hall, was a big supporter of the Stanleys in the Wars of the Roses. Following the Stanleys role in the defeat of Richard III at Bosworth, and the ascension of Henry VII, Piers’s son John became a Knight of the Kings Body. My own ancestors subsequently appeared on land that was formerly part of Stanley lands in Hale and I theorise that this may have been granted for services rendered at that time DNA evidence suggests my line (and the Cheshire group of Warburtons) are related to the Warburtons of Arley, ad thus descended from a Norman knight.

Regards
Ray

Ray Warburton
Warburton Website: #yiv9222202960 -- #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp #yiv9222202960hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp #yiv9222202960ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp .yiv9222202960ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp .yiv9222202960ad p {margin:0;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp .yiv9222202960ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-sponsor #yiv9222202960ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-sponsor #yiv9222202960ygrp-lc #yiv9222202960hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-sponsor #yiv9222202960ygrp-lc .yiv9222202960ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv9222202960 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