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Re: Ancestral Surnames and BigY results
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14 February 2017
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Dear Ray Warburton and Jim Liptrap, I agree that it is very likely that many Lancashire families named Latham (or variant spellings) took the surname as locative.? I know of several other Latham families in this part of Lancashire other than the Lathams of Upholland. The ancestry websites usually suggest that the family who obtained the estate at Lathom in Lancashire were the family descended from Sir Dunning Latham, Earl of Latham. I do not know how accurate this quotation is. The usual spelling of this family and their estate is Lathom as the modern place name.? Of course name spelling did not settle down until much later. 'Sir Dunning Latham, Earl of Latham (a Saxon lord) was living in Lancaster County about the time of the Norman Conquest. He married Lady Marigard of Avon and Essex, the daughter of Ranulph of Essex and Marion Stroud.Sir Dunning Latham sided with the Normans, thus betraying the Saxon people. His lordship was given to him by the Normans because of his choice. Sir Dunning was granted his lordship of the Chapelry of Lathom in 1067. His wife's father also sided with the Normans.Sir Dunning Latham and his wife Lady Marigard de Essex, had a son named Siward. Siward was born in 1073. Marigard died during his birth. Dunning died in 1092, of pneumonia.'Their line is traced down the websites including Sir Robert de Lathom. In the Southampton University website medievalsoldiers.org derived from the ancient muster rolls etc. there are 49 entires for Latham variant named soldiers (some clearly duplicated from different records).The first record is from 1368-69 for Robert and Edward de Lathum in the service of the Black Prince in Gascony.? In 1389 Edward de Lathoum is listed in the service of Sir John de Stanley.At the Battle of Agincourt on 25 October 1415 Thomas, William and John Latham of Cheshire were archers in the army of King Henry IV in the service of Captain John Kingsley.? In 1434 John and William Lathaum were archers in the standing force in Ireland in the service of Sir Thomas Stanley. There are 13 records of Warburtons in medievalsoldiers.com between 1378 - 1441. Hugh de Warburton was a man at arms with Henry IV's army at Agincourt on the sick list.? Recent studies have shown that Henry's Army suffered heavily from sickness before the battle. Ray Warburton mentions Wise Piers Warburton in the Wars of the Roses.?? The Ballad of Bosworth Field refers to a squire Latham in the service of Lord Strange with Lord Stanley's force at the Battleof Bosworth Field. Latham at the Battle of Bosworth Field: 22 August 1485 My cousin Charles Latham found this intriguing reference in the Ballad of Bosworth Field at verse 129 below to a squire named Latham. Lord Stanley (of Lathom House) did not attend to join King Richard III before the battle and sent Lord Strange in his place. When the king learnt that Stanley was with Henry Tudor he ordered the execution of Lord Strange. Lord Strange arranged for squire Latham to take his ring to give to his wife and requested him to take his son and heir overseas. Richard was persuaded not to execute Strange before the battle since he had more value as a hostage. Of course Richard lost and was killed, and Henry Tudor crowned himself on the battlefield. Stanley increased his influence. I do not know what became of Lord Strange and squire Latham. King Richard looked on the mountaines hye, & sayd, ¡°I see the banner of the Lord Stanley.¡± he said, ¡°ffeitch hither the Lord Strange to me, ffor doubtlesse hee shall dye this day; ¡ª125.500 ¡°Imake mine avow to Marye,that may, that all the gold this Land within shall not saue his liffe this day, in England iff I be Kinge!¡± ¡ª126.504 Then they brought Lord Strange into his sight; he said, ¡°ffor thy death make thee readye.¡± then answered that noble Knight, &said, ¡°I crye god & the world mercye! ¨C ¨C127.508 ¡°&Iesus, I draw wittnesse to thee that all the world ffrom woe did winn, since the time that I borne did bee, <>was I neuer traitor to my Kinge.¡± ¡ª128.512 a gentleman then called hee,¨C men said Latham was his name,¨C ¡°&euer thou come into my countrye, greete well my gentlemen eche one; ¡ª129.516 ¡°my yeomen Large of blood and bone, sometimes we had mirth att our meetinge; they had a Master, & now they haue none, ffor here I must be martyred with the Kinge!¡± ¡ª130.520 There he tooke a ring of his ffingar right, & to that squier raught itt hee, & said, ¡°beare this to my Lady bright, for shee may thinke itt longe or shee may see; ¡ª131.524 ¡°yett att doomes day meete shall wee,¨C I trust in Iesus that all this world shall winn¨C In the celestyall heauen vpon hye in presence of a Noble King. ¡ª132.528 ¡°& the ffeild be lost vpon our partye,¨C as I trust in god it shall not bee,¨C take my eldest sonne that is my heyre, & fflee into some ffar countrye. ¡ª133.532 ¡°yett the child a man may bee,¨C hee is comen of a Lords kinn,¨C another day to reuenge mee of Richard of England, if he be King.¡± ¡ª134.536 Theballad text of anonymous author is seventeenth century with asixteenth century prose version. It s thought that the ballad wascomposed by a Stanley supporter eye-witness of the battle of BosworthField. The whole poem can be found on the website of the Americansupporters of King Richard III. I hope that it is of some interest to detail all this. Kind regards,??? Peter Latham. ........................................................................................................................................................ On Tuesday, 14 February 2017, 17:16, "'Jim Liptrap' jim@... [R1b-S6881]" <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:
? One more thought.? The Vikings are generally in the I haplotree, rather than the R tree.? I should think that most, if not all, natives of the British Isles will have some Viking ancestry, though not necessarily in the direct-male line. Dupuytren's Contracture, also known as Viking Syndrome, does not appear to be transmitted patrilineally, Those with the condition include Ronald Reagan (Irish), Margaret [Roberts] Thatcher (Northumbrian Family), and Prince Joachim of Denmark (whose father is French). It is fascinating that the Lathom estates in Lancashire began with a Viking Family supporting William the Conqueror.? But you say the estate fell to the Stanley Family when Isabel Lathom, last of the Viking family, died in 1414.? Most of our S6881 group appear to descend from the Saxon stock in the area who did not assume surnames until the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries, when they became necessary to identify the ¡°common folk¡± on the estates for taxation purposes.? So our surnames are more likely to have been acquired from the places they lived, their occupations, or physical attributes.? Best wishes always,Jim Liptrap ?From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:30 AM To: R1b-S6881@... Subject: [R1b-S6881] Re: Ancestral Surnames and BigY results ?? Just a few thoughts on your postings, in no particular order. 1. On the STR vs SNP discussion, I also am no expert, but my view is that SNP results are definitive, whilst STR results are only indicative. STR mutations are relatively frequent, and bi-directional. Two opposite mutations can cancel out. Also I believe you can have a double jump e.g from 11 to 13 at a particular marker. The upshot is that matches might be random, resulting from many cancelling mutations. I was always told that you need other reasons, such as shared surname or other known link, to verify an STR match. On the other hand we can be pretty sure a SNP match means we have two descendants of the person who originated that SNP. So once you have found the most recent SNPs (shared and singletons) I don¡¯t see the advantage of further STR testing of those individuals. For people yet to test I would use an STR test to identify if they are likely to be S6881, and then use the S6881 panel. In time we should also have panels for the various S6881 subclades. These should give a better indication of the relationships between the various documented family trees, though whether they will help to identify missing links will depend if the relevant genealogical records are in existence. Im my Warburton One-Nmae study I have developed many family trees including about 7 in the Lancashire Group, and it is my hope that DNA may help me produce a tree of trees showing roughly when the trees converge. 2. In Peter¡¯s Latham's history you mention both the Viking term Lathe, and Lathom as a place name. Is it possible that the place name came from the Viking word, and the surname, which would have originated much later, derives from the place? Warburton is a locative name from the village Warburton, but the village was named after a Saxon Saint, Werbergh. 3. I too think Mr S6881 was born in England, and until an S6881 branch is found on the continent this is the best working assumption. It is also clear that some of his descendants were in the village of Warburton. As the village was founded (possibly by Queen Ethelflaeda of Mercia) to guard a ford of the river Mersey I assume it would be populated by loyal Saxon subjects. This is my reason for thinking Mr S6881 was a Mercian. Also the dates of Mercia¡¯s existence 515AD - 918AD encompass Iain¡¯s dates for S6881. When Warburton was founded the Mersey was the northern boarder of Mercia, and subject to Viking incursions (I believe these were Norwegian Vikings rather than Danes). However I¡¯m not sure where the earlier boundary with Northumbria was. I suspect it was variable. So it is unclear whether the S6881s settled in Lancashire before England became a single entity in the 10th century of afterwards. In any event it was probably long before surnames were established. If Latham and Warburton are locative names it implies both places were home to Mr S6881s descendants at the time they were established. 4. Cynthia mentioned the Warburton - Graves link was ancient. There is a curious phenomenon that the S6881 tree indicates a Warburton - Warburton and a Graves - Graves link which are also ancient, clearly predating the adoption of surnames. In the Warburton case I presume that two descendants of an early Warburton villager independently adopted their old village name and finished up in the same area of Lancashire. Incidentally the earliest known presence of a Saxon Warburton in Lancashire (ignoring sons of the Norman Warburtons of Arley Hall) was a Thomas in Tottington (probably Stubbins Halll, Edenfield) who I calculated from Manorial records must have been born around 1490. 5. Peter¡¯s mention of the Stanleys, Earls of Derby is interesting as Wise Piers Warburton, who founded Arley Hall, was a big supporter of the Stanleys in the Wars of the Roses. Following the Stanleys role in the defeat of Richard III at Bosworth, and the ascension of Henry VII, Piers¡¯s son John became a Knight of the Kings Body. My own ancestors subsequently appeared on land that was formerly part of Stanley lands in Hale and I theorise that this may have been granted for services rendered at that time DNA evidence suggests my line (and the Cheshire group of Warburtons) are related to the Warburtons of Arley, ad thus descended from a Norman knight. Regards Ray Ray Warburton Warburton Website: #yiv9222202960 -- #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp #yiv9222202960hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp #yiv9222202960ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp .yiv9222202960ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp .yiv9222202960ad p {margin:0;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-mkp .yiv9222202960ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-sponsor #yiv9222202960ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-sponsor #yiv9222202960ygrp-lc #yiv9222202960hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv9222202960 #yiv9222202960ygrp-sponsor #yiv9222202960ygrp-lc .yiv9222202960ad 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