Just a few thoughts on your postings, in no particular order.
1. On the STR vs SNP discussion, I also am no expert, but my view is that SNP results are definitive, whilst STR results are only indicative. STR mutations are relatively frequent, and bi-directional. Two opposite mutations can cancel out. Also I believe you can have a double jump e.g from 11 to 13 at a particular marker. The upshot is that matches might be random, resulting from many cancelling mutations. I was always told that you need other reasons, such as shared surname or other known link, to verify an STR match. On the other hand we can be pretty sure a SNP match means we have two descendants of the person who originated that SNP.
So once you have found the most recent SNPs (shared and singletons) I don¡¯t see the advantage of further STR testing of those individuals. For people yet to test I would use an STR test to identify if they are likely to be S6881, and then use the S6881 panel.
In time we should also have panels for the various S6881 subclades. These should give a better indication of the relationships between the various documented family trees, though whether they will help to identify missing links will depend if the relevant genealogical records are in existence. Im my Warburton One-Nmae study I have developed many family trees including about 7 in the Lancashire Group, and it is my hope that DNA may help me produce a tree of trees showing roughly when the trees converge.
2. In Peter¡¯s Latham's history you mention both the Viking term Lathe, and Lathom as a place name. Is it possible that the place name came from the Viking word, and the surname, which would have originated much later, derives from the place? Warburton is a locative name from the village Warburton, but the village was named after a Saxon Saint, Werbergh.
3. I too think Mr S6881 was born in England, and until an S6881 branch is found on the continent this is the best working assumption. It is also clear that some of his descendants were in the village of Warburton. As the village was founded (possibly by Queen Ethelflaeda of Mercia) to guard a ford of the river Mersey I assume it would be populated by loyal Saxon subjects. This is my reason for thinking Mr S6881 was a Mercian. Also the dates of Mercia¡¯s existence 515AD - 918AD encompass Iain¡¯s dates for S6881.
When Warburton was founded the Mersey was the northern boarder of Mercia, and subject to Viking incursions (I believe these were Norwegian Vikings rather than Danes). However I¡¯m not sure where the earlier boundary with Northumbria was. I suspect it was variable. So it is unclear whether the S6881s settled in Lancashire before England became a single entity in the 10th century of afterwards. In any event it was probably long before surnames were established. If Latham and Warburton are locative names it implies both places were home to Mr S6881s descendants at the time they were established.
4. Cynthia mentioned the Warburton - Graves link was ancient. There is a curious phenomenon that the S6881 tree indicates a Warburton - Warburton and a Graves - Graves link which are also ancient, clearly predating the adoption of surnames. In the Warburton case I presume that two descendants of an early Warburton villager independently adopted their old village name and finished up in the same area of Lancashire. Incidentally the earliest known presence of a Saxon Warburton in Lancashire (ignoring sons of the Norman Warburtons of Arley Hall) was a Thomas in Tottington (probably Stubbins Halll, Edenfield) who I calculated from Manorial records must have been born around 1490.
5. Peter¡¯s mention of the Stanleys, Earls of Derby is interesting as Wise Piers Warburton, who founded Arley Hall, was a big supporter of the Stanleys in the Wars of the Roses. Following the Stanleys role in the defeat of Richard III at Bosworth, and the ascension of Henry VII, Piers¡¯s son John became a Knight of the Kings Body. My own ancestors subsequently appeared on land that was formerly part of Stanley lands in Hale and I theorise that this may have been granted for services rendered at that time. DNA evidence suggests my line (and the Cheshire group of Warburtons) are related to the Warburtons of Arley, ad thus descended from a Norman knight.
Regards
Ray
Ray Warburton
Warburton Website:
