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Re: DNA Testing.
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? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?23 March 2017 Dear Justin, Jim and all, A move for a man from West Lancashire to Devon in far SW England before the railways in the Nineteenth Century would indeed be an unusual event, but is conceivable (no pun intended) as Jim points out. One possibility would be check out the names of soldiers who fought in the medieval wars including at Agincourt on the easily searchable University of Southampton website ? I recall that there were Lathams in military service in France and Ireland with aristocrats in counties a long way from Lancashire. ?Remember that such aristocrats often owned family lands acquired by marriage or Royal grant? in distant parts of the country and may have recruited soldiers there who were discharged in other parts of the country on return from overseas . Another possibility is naval service. ?Upholland in Lancashire is close to the port of Liverpool. ?Devon is the next county to Cornwall with the traditional naval base at Plymouth. Skilled tradesmen such as stonemasons travelled extensively to where churches, castles, and palaces were being built. ?Criminals flee to remote areas ! Best wishes, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Peter Latham. On Thursday, 23 March 2017, 19:46, "'Jim Liptrap' jim@... [R1b-S6881]" wrote:
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Justin, It is also interesting that my name, Liptrap, which is supposed to have derived from Liptrot of Lancashire, also appears in Devonshire. ??? Robert Liptrap had children baptized and then married from 1726 to 1769 in Tiverton ??? John Liptrap had children baptized from 1751 to 1762 in Tavistock I have no information on where these two men originated, nor what happened to their descendants.? There was no one by that name in Devonshire for the 1841 Census, nor any later.. Was there a migration from Lancashire to Devonshire in the 17th Century?? It would appear, from a map, to be an unusual move with no direct route.? But I am in America, and not familiar with migrations in England. Another possibility would be the displacements that occurred during the Civil Wars of 1642-1651.? Was there a regiment from Lancashire deployed to Devonshire?? Did some of the soldiers find the land – or the women – beautiful, and decide to stay? But you did indicate that the name Horrell (with variations) was found in Devonshire from the 14th Century. Another possibility that we do not like to think about (and I mean no offense) is that one of the soldiers might have left his DNA in Devonshire, and then returned to Lancashire. But I agree with Chris, that until we find more information, it appears that your S6881 ancestor moved from Lancashire to Devonshire between the 7th and 14th Centuries, and assumed his name there.? With no “close” matches at 111 STRs the connection appears to be very far back. Looking at my matches at FTDNA yDNA67, most of my connections to group members have a “genetic distance” of 6 or 7.? Looking at the TIP estimates of most recent common ancestors (for whatever they might be worth): The Liptrap/Liptrot connection to Latham, Loyd, Todd, Canaday, Graves, and Brooks appears to be about 12 to 14 generations back, Sexton says 18 generations back, which makes no sense if Sexton derived from Graves after the move to America. The only Warburton on my list shows up at a genetic distance of one out of 25, and no TIP report is available. You are not listed, and would therefore be even farther back. 14 Generations back would be someone born about around the year 1500 +/-100.? But it might have been earlier. ? The earliest Liptrot I have found is John Lyptrot, archer, who served in a naval expedition to Brittany in 1377. The first connection to Lancashire is Thomas Liptrot, Sr, witness to a Title Deed in Chorley in 1407. ? A “Roll of the Manor” from the Duchy of Lancashire, dated 1311, in a book I found in the Genealogical Library in Houston, Texas, published in 1869, lists no Liptrots (or variation) ?but most of the tenants listed had no last names.? I really need to make copies of those lists and post on our website.? Something to do on my next trip there. But this shows that the “common folk” of Lancashire were only in the process of assuming last names in 1311.? If your ancestor (call him John) moved to Devonshire about that time, he probably took his name after he moved.? If he had lived in Horul/Orrell, Lancashire, and had moved, say, to Bolton, he might have been called “John from Orrell.” ?But if he moved to Devon, that name would have made no sense because no one there would have known where Orrell was.? He would more likely have been called “John from Lancashire” and eventually John Lancaster. Sorry for the ramblings.? I couldn’t sleep, so I started thinking.? Sometimes dangerous. J Jim Liptrap ? ? ? ? From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:26 PM To: R1b-S6881@... Subject: Re: [R1b-S6881] LivingDNA Testing. ? ? Hello Peter, All, i was just reading the group posts properly. Do I take it from Peters note above about Upholland and Standish that these parishes look to be the origin of surnames of all the people in this S6881 group except me? I am just very curious to note that the next town to Upholland is Orrell (first recorded as Horul it seems). My family can trace back pretty far in Devon (at least to 17th C with some records from 14C)? but I'm really intrigued now that maybe our name originates in Lancashire with our common ancestor Justin Horrell |
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