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Ancient genealogies

Nigel McCarthy All Messages By This Member #33 开云体育 Dustin, ? I uploaded an unfinished article on “Possible A541 haplogroup phylogenetic alignments with genealogies of descent from Oilioll Olum” to the McCarthy Wordpress website a couple of years ago. I hope to supersede it this Spring, rewriting and completing it! Towards the end of it there is a first millennium tree (Fig. 3) built largely from an ancient document known as Rawlinson B502, though it includes contributions from several other such documents. There is then a provisional overlay of the Irish Type II genetic tree to give a best fit. ? Don’t take any of this as gospel, and I will be making revisions when I update it, especially to the subclades of SNP A159. ?Even if these genealogies are to be believed (and the successful alignments suggest to me many should be) I strongly suspect there are several generations missing prior to Conall Corc, or the purported dates relating to the deaths pf Oilioll Olum and his son, and birth of his grandson (all in a semi-mythical age anyway) would imply unlikely longevity of succeeding generations. (There are of course other ifs and buts). A few extra generations would afford some better alignment still. ? As Fig 3 stands you can see why O’Moriarty (from Muircheartach) does not quite align. It seems this was quite a common name and as I suggested for the Sheehans, it could be that the scribes of the 9^th – 11^th centuries incorrectly allocated Muircheartach’s ancestry, although rightly among the progeny of Conall Corc. There are always several explanations why attempted alignments might not fit, but what I find remarkable is that so much does. Here for example you see on Fig. 3 a shared origin for O’Moriarty and O’Carroll (a surname which quite certainly has many sources), and you will see Carrolls quite close to Moriartys on the tree (and even closer if there are truly Moriartys who are BY2880+ but FGC17180-). ??And the O’Laoi (Lee, Leahy) fit perfectly with the current scheme. ? I’m sure we’ll never be able to say with certainty that “This is how it was” but review of the possibilities makes for an interesting pastime! ? Kind regards = Nigel McCarthy Administrator, McCarthy Surname Study Administrator, R Z16526 and Subclades Project https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mccarthy-surname-study/about/background https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-p314/about/background (for R Z16526 and Subclades Project) https://mccarthydna.wordpress.com (for material which cannot be accommodated on FTDNA-hosted sites) ? toggle quoted message Show quoted text From: Dustin Shane Sent: 06 January 2020 19:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New file uploaded to [email protected] ? Nigel, ? The two Moriartys I tested have been added to Group 71. I? want to do more testing on their?samples?later this year when I have the money. Not sure if yseq offers something like the Big Y but that would be what I would order. ? For Sheehans, I tested four random Sheehans from Facebook in the same way (from Ireland, the UK, and the US), and every one of them was A2224- and A923+. I can also add those accounts to the Group 71 if you'd like. (I was looking for a Sheehan with roots in County Kerry that was A2224+ like myself but concluded that that line either died out in Ireland or is small enough that I probably won't find it through random testing. Makes me think that my ancestor was adopted into a Sheehan family relatively recently.) ? And I just realized that it's possible the original Moriarty (would it have been?O'Muircheirtaigh, descendant of Corc, or that O'Moriarty that was expelled in AD 1107?) could've had a terminal SNP of BY2880. The two Moriartys I tested who were FGC17180- and those of us who are positive for this SNP may still descend from the same branch, since we're all BY2880+. They likely have undiscovered SNPs downstream of BY2880. Looks like the other major family from the BY2880 stem was the O'Donoghues. I really need to research the ancient genealogies more to understand how this fits with them.? ? Dustin ? ? F82866B0A24D4160843DC6132A4409A3.png
Dustin Shane All Messages By This Member #34 Nigel, That article is pure gold. Please do update it. I'm going back and educating myself on the ancient genealogies now. I think your theory sounds right--they probably just misplaced the exact descent of Muircheirtaigh, since as you point out, they have the general placement of the families right, and it seems a similar mistake was made with the Sheehans (and doubtless others). How amazing that the dna matches?to the extent it does the old sources.? And I feel like it's a good confirmation of where the Moriartys are on your chart that I independently found two BY2880+ Moriartys. This summer I'll probably try to get one of them to do a FTDNA y test just to get their sample in. Then with more funds we can do a Big Y on one at some point in the future.? Dustin toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 5:06 AM Nigel McCarthy <ndmccarthy10@...> wrote: Dustin, ? I uploaded an unfinished article on “Possible A541 haplogroup phylogenetic alignments with genealogies of descent from Oilioll Olum” to the McCarthy Wordpress website a couple of years ago. I hope to supersede it this Spring, rewriting and completing it! Towards the end of it there is a first millennium tree (Fig. 3) built largely from an ancient document known as Rawlinson B502, though it includes contributions from several other such documents. There is then a provisional overlay of the Irish Type II genetic tree to give a best fit. ? Don’t take any of this as gospel, and I will be making revisions when I update it, especially to the subclades of SNP A159.? Even if these genealogies are to be believed (and the successful alignments suggest to me many should be) I strongly suspect there are several generations missing prior to Conall Corc, or the purported dates relating to the deaths pf Oilioll Olum and his son, and birth of his grandson (all in a semi-mythical age anyway) would imply unlikely longevity of succeeding generations. (There are of course other ifs and buts). A few extra generations would afford some better alignment still. ? As Fig 3 stands you can see why O’Moriarty (from Muircheartach) does not quite align. It seems this was quite a common name and as I suggested for the Sheehans, it could be that the scribes of the 9^th – 11^th centuries incorrectly allocated Muircheartach’s ancestry, although rightly among the progeny of Conall Corc. There are always several explanations why attempted alignments might not fit, but what I find remarkable is that so much does. Here for example you see on Fig. 3 a shared origin for O’Moriarty and O’Carroll (a surname which quite certainly has many sources), and you will see Carrolls quite close to Moriartys on the tree (and even closer if there are truly Moriartys who are BY2880+ but FGC17180-). ??And the O’Laoi (Lee, Leahy) fit perfectly with the current scheme. ? I’m sure we’ll never be able to say with certainty that “This is how it was” but review of the possibilities makes for an interesting pastime! ? Kind regards = Nigel McCarthy Administrator, McCarthy Surname Study Administrator, R Z16526 and Subclades Project (for R Z16526 and Subclades Project) (for material which cannot be accommodated on FTDNA-hosted sites) ? From: Dustin Shane Sent: 06 January 2020 19:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New file uploaded to [email protected] ? Nigel, ? The two Moriartys I tested have been added to Group 71. I? want to do more testing on their?samples?later this year when I have the money. Not sure if yseq offers something like the Big Y but that would be what I would order. ? For Sheehans, I tested four random Sheehans from Facebook in the same way (from Ireland, the UK, and the US), and every one of them was A2224- and A923+. I can also add those accounts to the Group 71 if you'd like. (I was looking for a Sheehan with roots in County Kerry that was A2224+ like myself but concluded that that line either died out in Ireland or is small enough that I probably won't find it through random testing. Makes me think that my ancestor was adopted into a Sheehan family relatively recently.) ? And I just realized that it's possible the original Moriarty (would it have been?O'Muircheirtaigh, descendant of Corc, or that O'Moriarty that was expelled in AD 1107?) could've had a terminal SNP of BY2880. The two Moriartys I tested who were FGC17180- and those of us who are positive for this SNP may still descend from the same branch, since we're all BY2880+. They likely have undiscovered SNPs downstream of BY2880. Looks like the other major family from the BY2880 stem was the O'Donoghues. I really need to research the ancient genealogies more to understand how this fits with them.? ? Dustin ? ?

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