Re: YDNA Warehouse STR Uploads and Updates
James, ? Amazing progress, as your interventions always are! As you are aware I have been indicating postulated ancestral values at each tree branch on my Irish Type II / CTS4466 (and other haplogroup) trees all along, and since 2019 for several these trees have included the 727 markers for which FTDNA extracts data from Big Y tests. Apart from downloading the .csv files to a single massive spreadsheet, my methods are laboriously non-computerised, I.e. mutations are identified by visual inspection of the data. I recognise that universal application of such analysis needs a method such as yours. ? Since I use the output from this exercise to estimate the age at each tree branch it is important that my identification of mutations is close to being correct. ? I’m sure that comparison with your YDNA Warehouse results will cause me to rethink placement of some of the mutations I have postulated. I am equally sure that I will argue, based on logic rather than your program, that some of your conclusions cannot be correct. Will you have an override facility which can be applied if you are in agreement with me (if ever you have time to review such cases in depth!)? ? My own work has identified a number of independent levels on the trees which are defined solely by STR mutations, as would be expected. A few of these, early on, are particularly significant (e.g. FTY1172 on sheet 5 of the Irish Type II tree).Will the Warehouse trees have similar characteristics, or will STR mutations only be marked as coincident with SNPs? ? (I still await a response from Michael Sager to comments on FTDNA’s mew ‘Discovery’ tree node age estimates). ? Nigel Sent from for Windows ?
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From: James KaneSent: 15 July 2022 23:22 To: [email protected]Subject: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] YDNA Warehouse STR Uploads and Updates ? Hi folks,
Just a note for those who have participated in the past, the YDNA Warehouse is now importing Big Y STR CSVs beyond the 111 marker panels. ?We will be using these to compute the ancestral values at each tree branch and adding them to the . ?Currently, 8 of the 374 of you who have provided a BAM have also added the STR file with extended values.
CSV files are uploaded to a FTDNA STR or SNP Panel kit under your test Subject. 
If the row above already exists click the Manage button, and follow the instructions at the bottom of the page. 
And finally... the updates. ?I have successfully realigned the 374 BAMs already in my possession to the telomere-to-telemore reference, CHM13 and HG002, being internally piloted by FTDNA's?G?ran Runstr?m. ?These samples along with 1000 other fairly random ones are running through??to begin constructing a tree using this data. ?As new potential branches are found under CTS4466, I'll share my findings here.
?also has access to the VCF and coverage BED files for this new accession. ?Hopefully, you'll be able to see new updates show up there as well.
As always if you have trouble getting logged in or finding where to start send me a note directly by email. ?We'll get you sorted out.
Thanks,
James Kane PS: ?I plan to consolidate the STR, Big Y-500 and Big Y-700 tests into a single test unit in the future. ?This will bring us more inline with how you all are used to a Big Y-700 being the test that gives you STRs these days at FTDNA.
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YDNA Warehouse STR Uploads and Updates
Hi folks,
Just a note for those who have participated in the past, the YDNA Warehouse is now importing Big Y STR CSVs beyond the 111 marker panels. ?We will be using these to compute the ancestral values at each tree branch and adding them to the . ?Currently, 8 of the 374 of you who have provided a BAM have also added the STR file with extended values.
CSV files are uploaded to a FTDNA STR or SNP Panel kit under your test Subject.
If the row above already exists click the Manage button, and follow the instructions at the bottom of the page.
And finally... the updates. ?I have successfully realigned the 374 BAMs already in my possession to the telomere-to-telemore reference, CHM13 and HG002, being internally piloted by FTDNA's?G?ran Runstr?m. ?These samples along with 1000 other fairly random ones are running through??to begin constructing a tree using this data. ?As new potential branches are found under CTS4466, I'll share my findings here.
?also has access to the VCF and coverage BED files for this new accession. ?Hopefully, you'll be able to see new updates show up there as well.
As always if you have trouble getting logged in or finding where to start send me a note directly by email. ?We'll get you sorted out.
Thanks,
James Kane
PS: ?I plan to consolidate the STR, Big Y-500 and Big Y-700 tests into a single test unit in the future. ?This will bring us more inline with how you all are used to a Big Y-700 being the test that gives you STRs these days at FTDNA.
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
John, ? Just call it an opinion!? I’m quite happy for any such ideas to be shot down or argued out of court if that moves us collectively forward! ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ?
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From: john brazilSent: 06 July 2022 00:09 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? Thanks Nigel (as ever) for your expert opinion ?.? ? John, ? For ease of reference I comment in caps embedded in your message. ? I am going to write to Michael Sager (whom I hold in great esteem) about his dates for L21 and DF13, so will let you all know the outcome.? I anticipate an interesting answer! ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ? From: john brazil
Sent: 04 July 2022 14:29
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? I need to offer up these FTDNA dates, and yours, against the sparse and unreliable early medieval histories. At first reading some of the FTDNA dates look late, and we have both discussed your dates in the recent past. I accept your dates but wonder if, given the span of time involved, whether some of these SNPs (A541 or A151 for example) mutated a generation or more after the brothers, nephews, grandsons etc began to separate? YES THAT IS CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY AND I HAVE STRESEED IN MY WRITINGS THAT MUTATIONS DO NOT NECESSARILY ARRIVE AT A REGULAR PACE. HOWEVER, THE OVERALL AVERAGE RATE WHEN USING MY COUNTING METHOD IS VERY CLOSE TO ONE PER GENERATION. IN ADDITION TO THAT, I ARGUE THAT A541 COULD NOT HAVE OCCURRED LATER THAN IN AILILL FLANN BEC. THE SNPs WHICH FOLLOW THAT (S1121, WHICHEVER WAS FIRST IN THE Z21065 // A1134 BLOCK AND WHICHEVER WAS FIRST IN THE A151 BLOCK) COULD HAVE SKIPPED A GENERATION, BUT ALIGNMENT CONSIDERATIONS (MAIN E?GHANACHT LINE, U? FHIDHGHEINTE AND U? LIATH?IN RESPECTIVELY) SUGGEST THIS WAS UNLIKELY FOR S1121, WHICH I ALIGN WITH LUGAIDH, SON OF AILILL FLANN BEC AND PROGENITOR OF THE SAID MAIN E?GHANACHT LINE.? And other potential side-branches have been lost to history or not yet discovered? For example, you have speculated about the A151 'line', putatively Uí Liatháin, migrating to and establishing themselves in east Cork, and I have further speculated that they subsequently found themselves initially in west Wales and then Cornwall and later afield in the Outer Hebrides and Scandinavia. But the gap between family separation and SNP age can't be too great or we would be more likely to identify 'missing' side branches. ? Elizabeth, ? Go to Discover More under the Additional Tests and Tools tab at the foot of a Big Y tester’s FTDNA account. ? Type in the terminal SNP (leading with R-) and complete the registration form (your own log-on details will suffice). The next screen gives you the headline info. The Scientific Details gives you the screen Susan dumped. ? John K B please note that FTDNA concludes a date of about 450 A.D. (CE) for A541 (+/- 250 years). My own computation is based on fixing this nominally as 285 A.D. and I have presented arguments for this. Your own opinion was that it could have been a century or two earlier and this is suggested by my ‘uncalibrated’ calculations, so I have been willing to search for a justification of this (principally with respect to the expansion of Uí Liatháin peoples). I will stick with 285 as I do believe that aligns very well with ancient genealogies. ? Also of interest, FTDNA derives 1940 BCE as the mean for L21 (+/- 550 years) and 1730 BCE for DF13. These surprise me a little, as numerous ancient DNA samples imply (for me) about 500 – 5500 years earlier, I.e. just on the 95% CL. Adopting such dates would eliminate the anomaly I have which has caused me to override the raw A541 calculation with a ‘calibrated’ date but I believe that is in part due to a few ?‘hidden’ STR forward then back-mutations which of course reduce the mutation count by two at a time.? By the time the second millennium is reached our dates should not differ by nearly as much. ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ? From: Elizabeth
Sent: 03 July 2022 09:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? Hello, Susan.?
I must confess my ignorance - I have no idea how to access the attached screenprint you sent us.?Please enlighten me!
Nigel, it does say there that they calculate based on SNP and STR test results, so they have caught up with you!
Elizabeth
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Thanks Nigel (as ever) for your expert opinion ?.?
John?
John, ? For ease of reference I comment in caps embedded in your message. ? I am going to write to Michael Sager (whom I hold in great esteem) about his dates for L21 and DF13, so will let you all know the outcome.? I anticipate an interesting answer! ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ? From: john brazil
Sent: 04 July 2022 14:29
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? I need to offer up these FTDNA dates, and yours, against the sparse and unreliable early medieval histories. At first reading some of the FTDNA dates look late, and we have both discussed your dates in the recent past. I accept your dates but wonder if, given the span of time involved, whether some of these SNPs (A541 or A151 for example) mutated a generation or more after the brothers, nephews, grandsons etc began to separate? YES THAT IS CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY AND I HAVE STRESEED IN MY WRITINGS THAT MUTATIONS DO NOT NECESSARILY ARRIVE AT A REGULAR PACE. HOWEVER, THE OVERALL AVERAGE RATE WHEN USING MY COUNTING METHOD IS VERY CLOSE TO ONE PER GENERATION. IN ADDITION TO THAT, I ARGUE THAT A541 COULD NOT HAVE OCCURRED LATER THAN IN AILILL FLANN BEC. THE SNPs WHICH FOLLOW THAT (S1121, WHICHEVER WAS FIRST IN THE Z21065 // A1134 BLOCK AND WHICHEVER WAS FIRST IN THE A151 BLOCK) COULD HAVE SKIPPED A GENERATION, BUT ALIGNMENT CONSIDERATIONS (MAIN E?GHANACHT LINE, U? FHIDHGHEINTE AND U? LIATH?IN RESPECTIVELY) SUGGEST THIS WAS UNLIKELY FOR S1121, WHICH I ALIGN WITH LUGAIDH, SON OF AILILL FLANN BEC AND PROGENITOR OF THE SAID MAIN E?GHANACHT LINE.? And other potential side-branches have been lost to history or not yet discovered? For example, you have speculated about the A151 'line', putatively Uí Liatháin, migrating to and establishing themselves in east Cork, and I have further speculated that they subsequently found themselves initially in west Wales and then Cornwall and later afield in the Outer Hebrides and Scandinavia. But the gap between family separation and SNP age can't be too great or we would be more likely to identify 'missing' side branches. ? Elizabeth, ? Go to Discover More under the Additional Tests and Tools tab at the foot of a Big Y tester’s FTDNA account. ? Type in the terminal SNP (leading with R-) and complete the registration form (your own log-on details will suffice). The next screen gives you the headline info. The Scientific Details gives you the screen Susan dumped. ? John K B please note that FTDNA concludes a date of about 450 A.D. (CE) for A541 (+/- 250 years). My own computation is based on fixing this nominally as 285 A.D. and I have presented arguments for this. Your own opinion was that it could have been a century or two earlier and this is suggested by my ‘uncalibrated’ calculations, so I have been willing to search for a justification of this (principally with respect to the expansion of Uí Liatháin peoples). I will stick with 285 as I do believe that aligns very well with ancient genealogies. ? Also of interest, FTDNA derives 1940 BCE as the mean for L21 (+/- 550 years) and 1730 BCE for DF13. These surprise me a little, as numerous ancient DNA samples imply (for me) about 500 – 5500 years earlier, I.e. just on the 95% CL. Adopting such dates would eliminate the anomaly I have which has caused me to override the raw A541 calculation with a ‘calibrated’ date but I believe that is in part due to a few ?‘hidden’ STR forward then back-mutations which of course reduce the mutation count by two at a time.? By the time the second millennium is reached our dates should not differ by nearly as much. ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ? From: Elizabeth
Sent: 03 July 2022 09:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? Hello, Susan.?
I must confess my ignorance - I have no idea how to access the attached screenprint you sent us.?Please enlighten me!
Nigel, it does say there that they calculate based on SNP and STR test results, so they have caught up with you!
Elizabeth
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Ed, ? Please see section 2.6.2 of ? Some of the later genetic detail in the Attachments needs updating (or will be stripped out where superfluous to the purpose of the article), but the conclusion will remain unchanged. ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ?
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From: 贰诲厂尘颈迟丑’49Sent: 05 July 2022 23:17 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? Nigel,
Looking at your latest I’m curious how you see O’Sullivans descending from Oilill Flann Bec, an ancestor of Conal Corc.
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Nigel,
Looking at your latest I’m curious how you see O’Sullivans descending from Oilill Flann Bec, an ancestor of Conal Corc.
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Susan, ? I was referring to William Lundergan (born in Tipperary in 1795), however any testing of the most distant tracked paternal cousin helps greatly as it can give the shape of the grandparent. The outcome being that the gap between the two paternal lines is significantly reduced and estimates of the separation between them significantly improved. ? Paul ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Francis & Susan Minnehan
Sent: Tuesday, 5 July 2022 5:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Lundergan? Hi Paul,
You asked Debbie if she has any Lundergan cousins who could possibly test, and then you mentioned any other known descendants of William. Do you mean William Minahan born about 1806 who is ancestor of Minahan 75798? If we could find another descendant of William Minahan to test could that be helpful both to Debbie and my husband to narrow things down further?
Thank you!
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Hi Paul,
You asked Debbie if she has any Lundergan cousins who could possibly test, and then you mentioned any other known descendants of William. Do you mean William Minahan born about 1806 who is ancestor of Minahan 75798? If we could find another descendant of William Minahan to test could that be helpful both to Debbie and my husband to narrow things down further?
Thank you!
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Thank you Ed! ? Many unknowns, many dots to be joined, and much speculation,. But as you say, the more Big Y-700 (or similar) evidence we have the smoother the journey. ? You ask “What concrete paper trail evidence do we have about certain SNPs, mapped to Annals historical accounts,” (I truncate the rest of the query as I cannot give a useful answer). Try my article for a bit of bedtime reading. I also answer your query about generational intervals. The alignment charts at the end of the article may prove of interest, but note they are 14 months old and I intend to overhaul them later this year. (I am currently updating the phylogeny of the A9005 section on chart no. 1 and I think it is making a little more sense). ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ?
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From: 贰诲厂尘颈迟丑’49Sent: 04 July 2022 15:29 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? I love how everyone pulls together to help one another. ? Nigel helped confirm our male O’Sullivan lineage. ? My son and I are confirmed A1133, under FT43021/L270. The “age “ of our SNP mutation varies by the scientific authority (and math model), between 1,100 and the 15th century. Applying tight logic to connect SNPs, TMRCA, and surnames is both art and science. ? Take average timeframes for each generation, for example. ? Is it 25, 30, 33, 35 years per generation? ? ? What’s the mean, median, mode per Irish generation since the AngloNorman Invasion in the 12th century? ? What was life expectancy, offspring per man/woman by century since 1200? What concrete paper trail evidence do we have about certain SNPs, mapped to Annals historical accounts, changing political and parish boundaries post Anglo-Norman invasion, and many other variables? ? ?There are so many wild card uncertainties that require convergent paper trail and dna data to connect with each other multiple ways. I use SNPTracker as a cross check on SNP mutation timeframes. ? ?BY34893 occurred about 790 CE, in the time when Eoganacht ?clans still ruled Munster, 300+ years before the Normans arrived and surnames were first required in Ireland. ? ?This is a few centuries after St Patrick brought Christianity. My point: ? There are huge gaps in our fact base needed to “connect the dots” on specific descendant SNP subclade branches, mapped to surname variations. The good news is more people are testing beyond 37 markers so kit results are moving down the YDna tree branches, and sample sizes per BigY SNP are improving statistical confidence. Also, clan patron chiefs, including O’Sullivan, are testing deeply, resulting in new FTDNA-established SNPs under CTS4466. ? It’s evidence and logic like this applied by Nigel and others that improves predictions and helps citizen genealogists focus our research smartly.
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
I love how everyone pulls together to help one another. ? Nigel helped confirm our male O’Sullivan lineage. ? My son and I are confirmed A1133, under FT43021/L270. The “age “ of our SNP mutation varies by the scientific authority (and math model), between 1,100 and the 15th century.
Applying tight logic to connect SNPs, TMRCA, and surnames is both art and science. ? Take average timeframes for each generation, for example. ? Is it 25, 30, 33, 35 years per generation? ? ? What’s the mean, median, mode per Irish generation since the AngloNorman Invasion in the 12th century? ? What was life expectancy, offspring per man/woman by century since 1200? What concrete paper trail evidence do we have about certain SNPs, mapped to Annals historical accounts, changing political and parish boundaries post Anglo-Norman invasion, and many other variables? ? ?There are so many wild card uncertainties that require convergent paper trail and dna data to connect with each other multiple ways.
I use SNPTracker as a cross check on SNP mutation timeframes. ? ?BY34893 occurred about 790 CE, in the time when Eoganacht ?clans still ruled Munster, 300+ years before the Normans arrived and surnames were first required in Ireland. ? ?This is a few centuries after St Patrick brought Christianity.
My point: ? There are huge gaps in our fact base needed to “connect the dots” on specific descendant SNP subclade branches, mapped to surname variations. The good news is more people are testing beyond 37 markers so kit results are moving down the YDna tree branches, and sample sizes per BigY SNP are improving statistical confidence. Also, clan patron chiefs, including O’Sullivan, are testing deeply, resulting in new FTDNA-established SNPs under CTS4466. ? It’s evidence and logic like this applied by Nigel and others that improves predictions and helps citizen genealogists focus our research smartly. Ed Smith (O’Sullivan)
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
John, ? For ease of reference I comment in caps embedded in your message. ? I am going to write to Michael Sager (whom I hold in great esteem) about his dates for L21 and DF13, so will let you all know the outcome. ?I anticipate an interesting answer! ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ?
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From: john brazilSent: 04 July 2022 14:29 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? I need to offer up these FTDNA dates, and yours, against the sparse and unreliable early medieval histories. At first reading some of the FTDNA dates look late, and we have both discussed your dates in the recent past. I accept your dates but wonder if, given the span of time involved, whether some of these SNPs (A541 or A151 for example) mutated a generation or more after the brothers, nephews, grandsons etc began to separate? YES THAT IS CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY AND I HAVE STRESEED IN MY WRITINGS THAT MUTATIONS DO NOT NECESSARILY ARRIVE AT A REGULAR PACE. HOWEVER, THE OVERALL AVERAGE RATE WHEN USING MY COUNTING METHOD IS VERY CLOSE TO ONE PER GENERATION. IN ADDITION TO THAT, I ARGUE THAT A541 COULD NOT HAVE OCCURRED LATER THAN IN AILILL FLANN BEC. THE SNPs WHICH FOLLOW THAT (S1121, WHICHEVER WAS FIRST IN THE Z21065 // A1134 BLOCK AND WHICHEVER WAS FIRST IN THE A151 BLOCK) COULD HAVE SKIPPED A GENERATION, BUT ALIGNMENT CONSIDERATIONS (MAIN E?GHANACHT LINE, U? FHIDHGHEINTE AND U? LIATH?IN RESPECTIVELY) SUGGEST THIS WAS UNLIKELY FOR S1121, WHICH I ALIGN WITH LUGAIDH, SON OF AILILL FLANN BEC AND PROGENITOR OF THE SAID MAIN E?GHANACHT LINE.? And other potential side-branches have been lost to history or not yet discovered? For example, you have speculated about the A151 'line', putatively Uí Liatháin, migrating to and establishing themselves in east Cork, and I have further speculated that they subsequently found themselves initially in west Wales and then Cornwall and later afield in the Outer Hebrides and Scandinavia. But the gap between family separation and SNP age can't be too great or we would be more likely to identify 'missing' side branches. ? Elizabeth, ? Go to Discover More under the Additional Tests and Tools tab at the foot of a Big Y tester’s FTDNA account. ? Type in the terminal SNP (leading with R-) and complete the registration form (your own log-on details will suffice). The next screen gives you the headline info. The Scientific Details gives you the screen Susan dumped. ? John K B please note that FTDNA concludes a date of about 450 A.D. (CE) for A541 (+/- 250 years). My own computation is based on fixing this nominally as 285 A.D. and I have presented arguments for this. Your own opinion was that it could have been a century or two earlier and this is suggested by my ‘uncalibrated’ calculations, so I have been willing to search for a justification of this (principally with respect to the expansion of Uí Liatháin peoples). I will stick with 285 as I do believe that aligns very well with ancient genealogies. ? Also of interest, FTDNA derives 1940 BCE as the mean for L21 (+/- 550 years) and 1730 BCE for DF13. These surprise me a little, as numerous ancient DNA samples imply (for me) about 500 – 5500 years earlier, I.e. just on the 95% CL. Adopting such dates would eliminate the anomaly I have which has caused me to override the raw A541 calculation with a ‘calibrated’ date but I believe that is in part due to a few ?‘hidden’ STR forward then back-mutations which of course reduce the mutation count by two at a time.? By the time the second millennium is reached our dates should not differ by nearly as much. ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ? From: Elizabeth
Sent: 03 July 2022 09:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? Hello, Susan.?
I must confess my ignorance - I have no idea how to access the attached screenprint you sent us.?Please enlighten me!
Nigel, it does say there that they calculate based on SNP and STR test results, so they have caught up with you!
Elizabeth
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Thanks for this Nigel.
I need to offer up these FTDNA dates, and yours, against the sparse and unreliable early medieval histories.
At first reading some of the FTDNA dates look late, and we have both discussed your dates in the recent past.
I accept your dates but wonder if, given the span of time involved, whether some of these SNPs (A541 or A151 for example) mutated a generation or more after the brothers, nephews, grandsons etc began to separate? And other potential side-branches have been lost to history or not yet discovered?
For example, you have speculated about the A151 'line', putatively Uí Liatháin, migrating to and establishing themselves in east Cork, and I have further speculated that they subsequently found themselves initially in west Wales and then Cornwall and later afield in the Outer Hebrides and Scandinavia.
But the gap between family separation and SNP age can't be too great or we would be more likely to identify 'missing' side branches.
All the best,
John.
Elizabeth, ? Go to Discover More under the Additional Tests and Tools tab at the foot of a Big Y tester’s FTDNA account. ? Type in the terminal SNP (leading with R-) and complete the registration form (your own log-on details will suffice). The next screen gives you the headline info. The Scientific Details gives you the screen Susan dumped. ? John K B please note that FTDNA concludes a date of about 450 A.D. (CE) for A541 (+/- 250 years). My own computation is based on fixing this nominally as 285 A.D. and I have presented arguments for this. Your own opinion was that it could have been a century or two earlier and this is suggested by my ‘uncalibrated’ calculations, so I have been willing to search for a justification of this (principally with respect to the expansion of Uí Liatháin peoples). I will stick with 285 as I do believe that aligns very well with ancient genealogies. ? Also of interest, FTDNA derives 1940 BCE as the mean for L21 (+/- 550 years) and 1730 BCE for DF13. These surprise me a little, as numerous ancient DNA samples imply (for me) about 500 – 5500 years earlier, I.e. just on the 95% CL. Adopting such dates would eliminate the anomaly I have which has caused me to override the raw A541 calculation with a ‘calibrated’ date but I believe that is in part due to a few ?‘hidden’ STR forward then back-mutations which of course reduce the mutation count by two at a time.? By the time the second millennium is reached our dates should not differ by nearly as much. ? Nigel ? Sent from for Windows ? From: Elizabeth
Sent: 03 July 2022 09:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree ? Hello, Susan.?
I must confess my ignorance - I have no idea how to access the attached screenprint you sent us.?Please enlighten me!
Nigel, it does say there that they calculate based on SNP and STR test results, so they have caught up with you!
Elizabeth
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Hello, Everyone.
When a Forum member posts their first message, it automatically comes to me to approve - a 'spam catcher', no doubt.? It's nice to see we have some new posters to the latest thread, and they may have wondered why it took so long to see their note come through.
I've been battling a nasty cold over the weekend and haven't been on the computer much.? Apologies for the delays for some of you.? I hope to return to normal very soon.
For now,
Elizabeth
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Thank you, Paul. Appreciate the help! Sent from my itty bitty iPhone keyboard
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On Jul 3, 2022, at 5:35 PM, Paul O'Donnell <absentplodder@...> wrote:
? Debbie, Nigel has the split between Lundergan and the Minehans at about 1364, which is fairly late for new Surname generation but possible. Are there any other Lundergan cousins available to you, any other known descendants of William. They would all make perfectly reasonable surrogates for your father. It is hard to judge the viability of older samples, I know of testers who have had old samples successfully tested to BigY700, and testers with fairly recent samples fail. ? Cheers Paul O’Donnell ? ? Hello Gen-friends, I end up being a lurker in these discussions -- as the knowledge becomes more specific, I feel less able to understand the connections and am grateful for those of you who can focus, persist, and move us all forward! But I am home sick with Covid and it's given me the courage to ask some perhaps silly questions. So my father is R-BY34893.? It appears that he is most closely related through his Y to the Minehans -- Francis and Joe. My father is a Lundergan, with his farthest known ancestry?William Lundergan born in Tipperary in 1795.? I have done the Big Y, but not the new 700 test, and I haven't done SNPs. My dad passed away in 2014, do I only want to do tests that don't waste the sample. I don't have brothers, so this is it. Elizabeth -- should I do any other tests yet? Some of the things I am wondering: - I noticed in one of the charts he is listed as Dal gCas A. How is this different than Dal gCas B? Is he not Irish Type II? - On the Munster colorized chart, the names in the same section are different than the names surrounding him in the?R1b-CTS4466 Plus - Y-DNA Classic Chart - How close is our most recent ancestor based on the information?? - Why are there no other Lundergans or even Lonergans in these results? And finally, the most puzzling to me is that in none of the dna-informed trees -- ftdna, ancestry, 23 and me -- am I related paternally to anyone, other than my sister, my first cousin, and a half-first cousin through my father's half-sister. Even if there was a "night-time event" (a term I learned last night listening to Mr. Larkin's Youtube presentation from 2013), wouldn't we be related to somebody I didn't know??? Thank you all for the discussions. I enjoyed Elizabeth, Nigel, and Finbar's presentation from nearly a decade ago as well.? ? On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 9:40 AM Francis & Susan Minnehan <fransuem718@...> wrote: Thanks Joe, that’s interesting!
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Thank you, Sue amd Fran. We did use FTDNA, and it’s kit 203073. I did the Big Y.?
And I have not seen Clay in my research either!
Sent from my itty bitty iPhone keyboard
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On Jul 3, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Francis & Susan Minnehan <fransuem718@...> wrote:
?Sorry Mr. Clay, not familiar with the Clay surname in our personal research. You may want to ask this question in your own post of that subject matter. Good luck.
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Debbie, Nigel has the split between Lundergan and the Minehans at about 1364, which is fairly late for new Surname generation but possible. Are there any other Lundergan cousins available to you, any other known descendants of William. They would all make perfectly reasonable surrogates for your father. It is hard to judge the viability of older samples, I know of testers who have had old samples successfully tested to BigY700, and testers with fairly recent samples fail. ? Cheers Paul O’Donnell ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Debbie Starr via groups.io
Sent: Monday, 4 July 2022 4:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree? Hello Gen-friends, I end up being a lurker in these discussions -- as the knowledge becomes more specific, I feel less able to understand the connections and am grateful for those of you who can focus, persist, and move us all forward! But I am home sick with Covid and it's given me the courage to ask some perhaps silly questions. So my father is R-BY34893.? It appears that he is most closely related through his Y to the Minehans -- Francis and Joe. My father is a Lundergan, with his farthest known ancestry?William Lundergan born in Tipperary in 1795.? I have done the Big Y, but not the new 700 test, and I haven't done SNPs. My dad passed away in 2014, do I only want to do tests that don't waste the sample. I don't have brothers, so this is it. Elizabeth -- should I do any other tests yet? Some of the things I am wondering: - I noticed in one of the charts he is listed as Dal gCas A. How is this different than Dal gCas B? Is he not Irish Type II? - On the Munster colorized chart, the names in the same section are different than the names surrounding him in the?R1b-CTS4466 Plus - Y-DNA Classic Chart - How close is our most recent ancestor based on the information?? - Why are there no other Lundergans or even Lonergans in these results? And finally, the most puzzling to me is that in none of the dna-informed trees -- ftdna, ancestry, 23 and me -- am I related paternally to anyone, other than my sister, my first cousin, and a half-first cousin through my father's half-sister. Even if there was a "night-time event" (a term I learned last night listening to Mr. Larkin's Youtube presentation from 2013), wouldn't we be related to somebody I didn't know??? Thank you all for the discussions. I enjoyed Elizabeth, Nigel, and Finbar's presentation from nearly a decade ago as well.? ? On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 9:40 AM Francis & Susan Minnehan <fransuem718@...> wrote: Thanks Joe, that’s interesting!
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Sorry Mr. Clay, not familiar with the Clay surname in our personal research. You may want to ask this question in your own post of that subject matter. Good luck.
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Hi Debbie,
Glad you joined the conversation but sorry to learn of the Covid diagnosis. Hopefully it’s a light case.
I also normally lurk but decided yesterday to try throwing my questions out to see what happens. I’m sure Elizabeth and the others will soon reach out with some info for you.
Did your Dad do the family finder autosomal testing on FTDNA or just the Big Y? I don’t recall seeing him as a match to Fran. That is what is so interesting to me is that there is autosomal dna shared for Fran and Joseph. Plus there are other autosomal matches with descendants of Joseph’s great grandfather William.
The experts may correct me but I believe upgrading to the 700 is better than individual SNP or STR tests. Plus although the samples last for many years it’s not indefinite. Hopefully someone here will give you guidance on this.
Take care and hope you’re fully recuperated very soon.
Best wishes,
Sue & Fran
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Any of you folks related to Capt. Thomas Clay of the Virginia Clays that started in 1613 with John Clay????? ?Finney M. Clay
On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 07:56:35 AM CDT, Francis & Susan Minnehan <fransuem718@...> wrote:
Thank you Nigel for all this information. I readily admit to not understanding most of it!
However I do see where you calculate the MRCA for my husband and Mr. Minahan as approximately 1733 A.D. which is certainly possible and likely. As Mr. Minahan’s great grandfather was born about 1806 and my husband’s great grandfather about 1820, it’s only about 2 to 3 generations back to the 1730’s. The autosomal dna matches with various ancestors of Minahan 1806 just always make me feel the timeframe should be closer.
Elizabeth, here is a general link to the new FTDNA tool which I used for the above screenshot.?
Would testing a second cousin once or twice removed of my husband be helpful to make the picture clearer, or do we just need to wait for another unknown Minihan/Moynihan to test?
Thank you all for your assistance!
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Re: New FTDNA Beta Platform and Nigel McCarthy’s Tree
Hello Gen-friends,
I end up being a lurker in these discussions -- as the knowledge becomes more specific, I feel less able to understand the connections and am grateful for those of you who can focus, persist, and move us all forward! But I am home sick with Covid and it's given me the courage to ask some perhaps silly questions.
So my father is R-BY34893.? It appears that he is most closely related through his Y to the Minehans -- Francis and Joe. My father is a Lundergan, with his farthest known ancestry?William Lundergan born in Tipperary in 1795.?
I have done the Big Y, but not the new 700 test, and I haven't done SNPs. My dad passed away in 2014, do I only want to do tests that don't waste the sample. I don't have brothers, so this is it. Elizabeth -- should I do any other tests yet?
Some of the things I am wondering: - I noticed in one of the charts he is listed as Dal gCas A. How is this different than Dal gCas B? Is he not Irish Type II? - On the Munster colorized chart, the names in the same section are different than the names surrounding him in the?R1b-CTS4466 Plus - Y-DNA Classic Chart - How close is our most recent ancestor based on the information?? - Why are there no other Lundergans or even Lonergans in these results?
And finally, the most puzzling to me is that in none of the dna-informed trees -- ftdna, ancestry, 23 and me -- am I related paternally to anyone, other than my sister, my first cousin, and a half-first cousin through my father's half-sister. Even if there was a "night-time event" (a term I learned last night listening to Mr. Larkin's Youtube presentation from 2013), wouldn't we be related to somebody I didn't know???
Thank you all for the discussions. I enjoyed Elizabeth, Nigel, and Finbar's presentation from nearly a decade ago as well.?
Warm regards,
Debbie (Lundergan) Starr
On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 9:40 AM Francis & Susan Minnehan < fransuem718@...> wrote: Thanks Joe, that’s interesting!
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贰诲厂尘颈迟丑’49
