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U¨ª Liath¨¢in, D¨¦isi, Ogam, Christianity and Britain (particularly Wales)

 

Wow (again!) Neil !!!

Though for the sake of bandwidth I have cut the tail off this thread and, also, renamed the subject to match the content ?.

May I add some thoughts to this tour de force?

¶Ù¨¢¾±°ù±ð Cerbba may well have been born in County Meath but all of his R-A541 'cousins' were still in Munster.

The Late Iron Age remains CT14 found at Claristown in County Meath are indeed intriguing and I take your point about a possible relationship with Tara 25 km away. As for your observation that this man was so far from his Munster homeland, can I suggest that this was no further than the U¨ª Liath¨¢in colonies in South Wales? These coastal people were clearly at home on the water and Claristown is only 3 km from the Irish Sea.

As for the relationship between the U¨ª Liath¨¢in and the D¨¦ise, Elizabeth has already pointed out the very different genetic backgrounds of these two groups. Although the D¨¦isi may indeed have been a genetically mixed group, certain haplotypes / SNP markers and surnames are associated with them. Elizabeth has already pointed out R-CTS1751. The 'Princes' of the D¨¦isi were notably the U¨ª Faolain (Phelans and Whelans) and the U¨ª Bric (O'Bric, Brick). Interestingly, there are a significant number of Welsh surnames amongst the men who are CTS1751+. I can't find any Y DNA results for Bric as such but they may match Whalen.? And, seriously confusing for me, there are a significant number of men with the surnames Brazil / Brazile / Braswell / Bracewell who are also CTS1751+. Living times past in west Waterford next to other R-A151+ Brazils in east Cork!

One source that you only referenced very briefly Neil is Eoin O'Neill's 'The Native Place of St. Patrick' Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature Vol. 37 (1924 - 1927), pp. 118-140. This article discusses in detail the Irish colonies in Wales and the genealogies associated with them. I'll leave you to read this yourself but if I read it right, the initial colonies in Pembroke and in Gower / Kidwelly were led by the U¨ª Liath¨¢in but that the Pembroke / Dyfedd colony became dominated by the D¨¦isi whilst the U¨ª Liath¨¢in remained in Gower / Kidwelly until they were later pushed inland to Brycheiniog (Brecon) by the 'Sons of Cunedda'. O'Neill matches Brach¨¢n, the eponymous founder of the Brycheiniog dynasty, with MacBrocc, son of Eochu Liath¨¢in.

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The correspondence beween the distribution of Ogam stones and Brycheiniog is striking!

Neil, you will also notice that Brycheiniog borders Powys and was subsequently incorporated into the Kingdom of Powys.

Incidentally, and I realise it is only one opinion among many, the late Professor Kenneth Jackson seems to shared David Stifter's view about Ogam being the creation of a single individual, but was himself of the view that this happened in one of the Irish colonies in Britain.

Another idea that O'Neill discusses is the broc / badger theme. Despite the association between Welsh Ogam stones and the U¨ª Liath¨¢in, none of the inscriptions seem to include any name resembling Liath¨¢in. On the other hand, however, there are numerous references to BROC in various forms. Even though I don't speak Irish myself, I understand that the Irish word broc can also connote grey akin to liath? Even to this day people with mixed dark and grey hair can be nicknamed 'Badger'!

O'Neill also discusses the Attacotti. Who these people were and how they related to the Scotti remains problematic. They were clearly distinguished from the Scotti and their name has been the subject of much speculation. Especially since they are the only Irish tribal group incorporated as a group into the Roman Army. Neil, your reference to a possibly fourth century sarcophagus in Salona (now Solin) on the Croatian coast north of Dubrovnik with an inscription interpreted as that of a soldier 'e numero Ata[cottorum]' is news to me but clearly lines up with references to Irish and British troops in the army of Magnus Maximus who usurped Gratian to become the Emperor of the Western Empire. Who was defeated by the Emperor of the Eastern Empire, Theodosius I, at the Battle of Poetovio also known as the Battle of Save (near Siscia in modern Croatia) in 388. Maximus was later captured and executed at Aquileia in north eastern Italy. Whether the Attacotti were D¨¦isi or U¨ª Liath¨¢in remains to be determined - we need to keep an eye out for R-A151+ or R-CTS1751+ men from the Balkan peninsula!

Now for a further discussion about the introduction and development of Christianity in Britain and Ireland ?.

We know that Palladius landed in Ireland at Arklow in 431 AD to minister to the Scotti believing in Christ. We should also note that previously, as a deacon, he persuaded Pope Celestine I (AD 422-32) to send Germanus, Bishop of Auxerre, to stamp out the Pelagian Heresy in Britain. So Palladius was a conservative churchman obedient to Rome.

Pelagius (floruit AD 390-418) on the other hand was not. Pelagius was ostensibly a Celtic Briton though Jerome thought that he was Irish, suggesting that he was "stuffed with Irish porridge" (Scotorum pultibus praegravatus). He was also highly educated, spoke and wrote Latin and Greek with great fluency, and was well versed in theology. His name has traditionally been understood as a Graecized form (from ±è¨¦±ô²¹²µ´Ç²õ, "sea") of the Welsh name Morgan ("sea-born"), or another Celtic equivalent. He was an ascetic opponent of Augustine of Hippo. Was Pelagius a U¨ª Liath¨¢in or D¨¦isi colonist in south Wales? Did he transmit a more ascetic form of Christianity to southern Ireland (perhaps with Eastern Mediterranean? eremetic influences, anticipating the Culdees 300 years later)? Which brought Palladius to Ireland to stamp out? Certainly it suggests that Irish colonists living in Wales could have been well plugged into the Empire and its social and cultural influences.

John.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:42 AM O'Brien, Neil <neil.obrien@...> wrote:

Hi Elizabeth,

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I accept your point fully. The text is written in the context of Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman settlement in Wales, who obviously do not have the same eponymous ancestry, the Deisi being of the seed of Fiachrach Suighe, though likely from the genealogies in origin a federation of 50 different base tuath in vassalage (aithechth¨²ath) to the Dal Fiachrach Suighe. The Ui Liathain descend from ¶Ù¨¢¾±°ù±ð Cerbba, who is of uncertain origin, sometimes suggested as originating in Brega in modern Co. Meath.

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Wherein lies the nucleus of the elites of the Welsh colony is anyone¡¯s guess, though in the framing of the Expulsion of the Deisi, the old version of the origin myth is very much interpolated with Welsh genealogies in the context of Eochaid Almuir as one of the 4 sons of Art Corb, who led the settlement in Wales. As ? Cathasaigh points out, this narrative is absent from the later versions of the text. This is perhaps indicative that the ruling House of Dyfed is to be found in descent from a tribe of the Deisi Muman. Nevertheless, the presence of Lugaid mac L¨®egairi, grandson of Niall of the Nine Hostages, in Wales in the late 480s, as suggested by Coplestone-Crow might suggest the pre-eminence of the Ui Liathain amongst the colonies elites, given his alleged blood connection to the Ui Liathain.

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I don¡¯t think I¡¯ve adequately separated out the Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman out in the context of the Welsh colony and the two have perhaps become conflated in my own narrative and confusion, which has rather spoiled the effect. It would perhaps have been better to concentrate on the Ui Liathain in particular!

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Nevertheless, I think I would stand over a number of the points made as being signposts for future consideration:-

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  • The Ui Liathain and Deisi Muman formed the ancestral core of the settlers who left southeast Munster for Wales in the early 4th century ¨C this is an undoubted fact
  • I will put my comments in relation to CT14 at Claristown, Co. Meath into deep freeze, but note the curiosity of finding a A151+ sample buried so far from its Munster homeland, dating possible to the early 5th Century, and also the presence of modern A151+ ?DNA found deep into south east Munster. It is possible that A151+ might be one of the aithechth¨²ath tribes of the Deisi, or was in close alliance with them. I don¡¯t think John would agree, but it is another possible avenue of exploration should the Ui Laithain connection ¡®come a cropper¡¯
  • °ä°Õ³§4466¡­/A151+ is a haplotype may be associated with the settlement in Dyfed, particularly ´¡151/¡­¹ó°Õ11485&²µ³Ù;¹ó°Õ74196, which seems to have pushed up into north Wales for reasons that aren¡¯t understood
  • The Ui Liathain of East cork, or at least some branches of this polity, may possibly be A151+. I also note the relative scarcity of U¨ª Meic Caille septs from the various DNA projects
  • The A151+ were, or became, a coastal people - possibly with a core presence in the littoral of south-east Munster, or along the river basins of SE Munster, stretching from east Cork to west Waterford. I would most certainly stand over this and note the central importance of Waterford as one of the 3 main centres of Viking Ireland (Waterford, Limerick and Dublin), and its close relationship to Dublin. It¡¯s noteworthy that Ireland has 4 major Viking settlements along its from south coast, from Cork, Youghal, Waterford to Wexford. This perhaps explains the large degree of interaction between A151+ and the Viking world in the Irish sea. The prevalence of A151+ in the Viking world in Ireland and beyond perhaps suggests enslavement or military alliance, or indeed both.

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I look forward to further communication.

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Best,

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N

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