Re: Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo
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Very interesting discussion around VK202!?
Speaking of Lara Cassidy, she is featured in this Irish documentary which may be of interest to anyone who hasn't seen it.? :)
The part related to early Irish settlements and Irish genomes (focused on The Burren) starts at about 46:00.? ?There is reference to a climate and agriculturally related bottleneck period starting about 2500 to 3000 years ago leading into the Iron age.? (starting?1:19:38), though that would be earlier than the bottleneck you have been discussing.?
Cheers, Sharon Shane
From: "john brazil" <johnkbrazil@...> To: "R1b-CTS4466-Plus" < [email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 9:26:43 AM Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo
Thanks for this Neil (again). I would also really like to confirm the status of CT14 with Lara Cassidy. In her thesis he was typed as R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a3a2(a1d*). The asterisk I think indicates some uncertainty but if confirmed would mean he was R-A151+ but I don't know his R-A152 status. Another question for Lara. John.
Further to below, if FTDNA are correct, and VK202 is not a match for A151, this means that the A151 snip block has split and the tree potentially looks like this:-
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EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise
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R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Th¨¢inig an r¨ªomhphost seo as ¨¢it ¨¦igin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. N¨¢ clice¨¢il ar naisc agus n¨¢ hoscail ceangalt¨¢in mura n-aithn¨ªonn t¨² seoladh r¨ªomhphoist an tseolt¨®ra agus mura gcreideann t¨² go bhfuil an t-¨¢bhar s¨¢bh¨¢ilte.
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Did the project try approaching Lara Cassidy directly? The embargo period is the choice of the thesis author. In our collections policy that can embargo up to 5 years, after which time the thesis
is published on the institutional repository for all to see. Usually thesis authors put an embargo on their work in order to preserve the data for later publication, and publication can take a number of years to bring to market. However she might be happy
to discuss the sample with you.
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BTW John, did you see the response I received from FTDNA in regard to VK202 (quoted below). It¡¯s interesting that there was no call on A151, but a call on A152 ¨C this perhaps indicates the order
of the 2 snips in the A151 snip block and A152 possibly formed first, with no calls to any downstream snips, or matches to any modern A151 snips. As such, it is possibly indicative of another A152 branch existing in eastern Scotland, which has not yet been
discovered in modern DNA ¨C or else has died off.
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Best,
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Neil
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VK202 was placed at R-A151 based on his positive result for A152 (A151 has no coverage). He has no positive reads for anything currently down of R-A151. Negatives are very tricky to determine unless a sample is sequenced to a higher depth
(which VK202 was not).?
Private SNPs in samples like these are not able to be reliably obtained, again depth is going to be an issue here. VK202 also does not have any positive reads for any R-A151+ modern samples. R-A151 is as far as this sample can be placed at this time
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in regards to STR calling - unfortunately this too is simply not feasible/possible
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In regards to the actual sample itself, they would need to reach out to the authors of the paper. We have no affiliation with them or the sample. We merely analyzed the data
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EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of NUI Galway. Do not open attachments or click on links in the message unless you recognise
the sender's email address and believe the content is safe.
R?OMHPHOST SEACHTRACH: Th¨¢inig an r¨ªomhphost seo as ¨¢it ¨¦igin taobh amuigh de O? Gaillimh. N¨¢ clice¨¢il ar naisc agus n¨¢ hoscail ceangalt¨¢in mura n-aithn¨ªonn t¨² seoladh r¨ªomhphoist an tseolt¨®ra agus mura gcreideann t¨² go bhfuil an t-¨¢bhar s¨¢bh¨¢ilte.
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I had no luck finding an ENA number for the late Iron Age Claristown inhumation CT14 included in Lara Cassidy's thesis. It may have been embargoed like her thesis
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I don't recall looking for the other ENA numbers - I need to check my records.
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Thanks, James.
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John, did you have any luck clarifying point 1?
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Re second point, have the genetic genealogy number crunchers considered trying to adjust their average
SNP mutation rates to coincide with ancient DNA results?? There are plenty of other ancient DNA results in other haplogroups, so this affects all of us.? I realize that the older the sample, the harder it would be to obtain adequate results to check all the
way down the tree.? I believe it was mentioned previously that there is a possible A151 sample from Meath dated 60-420 AD.
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1) I don¡¯t have the raw data for the ancient sample.? I someone has the ENA identifier for the data, I can go retrieve it.
2) We can¡¯t really draw conclusions at this time.? Radio carbon dating is more accurate than rudimentary SNP counting.
James
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I see two issues here ¨C?
1. I don¡¯t know that we know if the FGC11134 ancient DNA was tested far, if at all, beyond FGC11134
itself.? James, you were looking at what raw data you had access to ¨C did you see if any SNPs downstream of FGC11134 were even checked?? As CJ points out, A212 would be a real possibility for that geography up north.
2. It is my opinion that the early dates identified for FGC11134 tells us that, provided we can trust
the carbon dates, our dating calculations are off significantly.??
James has ¡®MRCA: 1350BC [ 2750BC - 0AD 95% confidence using 174 NGS samples ]¡¯ for FGC11134. ?
Alex has ¡®¡the median age of this block is 3751.26 YBP (1802 BC). The 95% confidence interval is
2396 BC to 1226 BC¡¯ for FGC11134.? He shows:
Measure?????????? Age (YBP)
Mean?? ??????????? 3744.5
Mode?? ??????????? 3780.0
I¡¯ve translated the ybp carbon dates below to dates BC in red.? ¡®Our¡¯ dates are a bit closer to low
end of the Sligo remains, but generally estimated younger.? I wonder if anyone has seriously considered this as suggesting a re-evaluation may be in order?
If we¡¯re agreed that CTS4466 probably didn¡¯t form on the island of Ireland, but in Wales
If CTS4466 TMRCA is 250CE then IMO it?clearly?increases
the likelyhood of it being of Irish rather than Welsh origin.??
I will point out (again) that FGC11134 (parent of CTS4466) remains were carbon dated in:
- Fermanagh (4370-4156 ybp)?????????????????????2349 ¨C 2135 BC
- Sligo (4036-3779 ybp)??????????????????????????????????2015
¨C 1758 BC
As has been noted in this group there is zero known small scale elite migration to Ireland from the native Welsh (with the possible exception of the Roman conquest
of Mon c. 80AD) in the first part of the first millennium CE.
There IS some ¡°elite¡±/small scale return migration recorded of Irish settlers living in Wales BACK to Ireland plus PLENTY of recorded migration of Irish migration
to Wales 100BCE-450CE, including starting royal dynasties there.
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