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Sources for hydrogen/helium in small quantities? #u4b Thermite #u4b


 

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I just checked ¡°thermite¡± on wiki¡­¡­ disaster waiting to happen. ?Even the Germans (the greatest scientists of the pre WWII day, at least in chemistry) made mistakes or compromises due to unavailability of helium.?

Dave K8WPE

David J. Wilcox¡¯s iPad

On May 28, 2022, at 3:05 PM, Jim Strohm <jim.strohm@...> wrote:

?Hydrogen would have the CHEAPEST lift. ?

FWIW, the reason that the Hindenburg was full of hydrogen was that the US wouldn¡¯t sell helium to Nazi Germany.?

The Hindenburg made multiple trips across the Atlantic using hydrogen without any issues. ? However, part of the disaster was that the coating on the outer envelope was thermite. ?

Looked nice, repelled UV very nicely, but was more flammable than hydro. ?

73
Jim N6OTQ?



Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.?

On May 28, 2022, at 1:57 PM, Colin Kaminski <colinskaminski@...> wrote:

?Hydrogen is lighter but also a bigger molecule so it is less likely to leak.?

Colin
K6JTH?


 

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Some thoughts¡­

We launched four large balloons this spring. We did 3 - 1500gram and one 1200 gram, we are close to launching the final 1200 gram. I used helium for three because the cost was covered by a donor. The last 1500 we did was hydrogen and we hit 109k¡¯.

Hydrogen is stable accept when it has oxygen. When launching open your bag and just unroll them fill nozzle into your filler to keep air out.

We had the tank in the ground (direct) and I was very cautious of static. I didn¡¯t use my normal 1¡± pvc connector as my mount point as I feared the gap between the filler and the coupler could generate static. All tge lectures I listened to warned of gaps between plastic that could generate static.?

We used cotton gloves when handling the balloon when filling gas just in case as the plastic from nitrile wouldn¡¯t melt to hands.

We cannot get helium regardless of what someone will pay here any longer. You have to have a contract for it. I can get tanks of hydrogen for $150 (or market price). Those are 200cuft. You can pay monthly tank rental and go more balloons at a later time if you needed say 20-50 cuft per launch. You can also likely find a tank online to buy and turn in for trade. Keep in mind to check the stamps on the neck of the tanks to make sure they are current.

Happy flying! I¡¯m addicted now lol

On May 29, 2022, at 6:54 AM, David Wilcox K8WPE via groups.io <Djwilcox01@...> wrote:

?I just checked ¡°thermite¡± on wiki¡­¡­ disaster waiting to happen. ?Even the Germans (the greatest scientists of the pre WWII day, at least in chemistry) made mistakes or compromises due to unavailability of helium.?

Dave K8WPE

David J. Wilcox¡¯s iPad

On May 28, 2022, at 3:05 PM, Jim Strohm <jim.strohm@...> wrote:

?Hydrogen would have the CHEAPEST lift. ?

FWIW, the reason that the Hindenburg was full of hydrogen was that the US wouldn¡¯t sell helium to Nazi Germany.?

The Hindenburg made multiple trips across the Atlantic using hydrogen without any issues. ? However, part of the disaster was that the coating on the outer envelope was thermite. ?

Looked nice, repelled UV very nicely, but was more flammable than hydro. ?

73
Jim N6OTQ?



Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.?

On May 28, 2022, at 1:57 PM, Colin Kaminski <colinskaminski@...> wrote:

?Hydrogen is lighter but also a bigger molecule so it is less likely to leak.?

Colin
K6JTH?


 

Thermite? Hydrogen? I do NOT see any connection between these two subjects.

I'm glad to see you are going overboard in your safety procedures while handling hydrogen gas.

Since hydrogen can pose a safety hazard, I wonder if any of the people promoting it as the next generation of "a new clean fuel" have given safety any serious consideration!


 

The thermite reference is referring to the paint that was used on the Hindenburg. A paint contained iron and aluminum oxide. When those two are heated a thermite reaction occurs. Thermite reaction is one of the most exothermic reactions known. When the Hindenburg caught fire the paint also caught fire and spread to the rest of the fuselage.


 

The Hindenberg did NOT have an exterior covering of thermite. That's a myth perpetuated by those wishing to decrease the danger of filling a dirigible or LTA airship with hydrogen. These same people want hydrogen to be the next "clean fuel", not electric vehicles.

Yes, the Hindenberg had an OUTER coating that used powdered Aluminum as a heat-repellent ingredient. It also used an INNER coating that contained Iron Oxide, to protect from the effects of UV radiation. That is not thermite! The compounds were physically separated!

As an analogy, butyl rubber [polyisobutylene] is used in both C-4 plastic explosives and basketballs but that doesn¡¯t make your basketball a bomb!

The following is a partial list of hydrogen-inflated airships that were destroyed by fire from accidental causes (the list does not include ships shot down in combat operations) : ALL WERE LOST DUE TO IGNITION OF HYDROGEN!

LZ-4 (August 5, 1908) LZ-6 (September 14, 1910);
LZ-12/Z-III (June 17, 1912);
LZ-10 Schwaben (June 28, 1912);
Akron (July 2, 1912);
LZ-18/L-2 (October 17, 1913);
LZ-30/Z-XI (May 20, 1915);
LZ-40/L-10 (September 3, 1915);
SL-6 (November 10, 1915);
LZ-52/L-18 (November 17, 1915);
LZ-31/L-6 and LZ-36/L-9 (September 16, 1916);
LZ-53/L-17 and LZ-69/L-24 (December 28, 1916);
SL-9 (March 30, 1917);
LZ-102/L-57 (October 7, 1917);
LZ-87/LZ-117, LZ-94/L-46, LZ-97/L-51, and LZ-105/L-58 (January 5, 1918);
LZ-104/L-59 (April 7, 1918);
Wingfoot Air Express (July 21, 1919);
R-38/ZR-II (August 23, 1921);
Roma (February 21, 1922);
Dixmude (December 21, 1923);
R101 (October 5, 1930);
LZ-129 Hindenburg (May 6, 1937)

I hope there is clearer thinking on this "outside issue"!

Best Regards, Michael