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I'm wondering if anyone can suggest where these gases might be obtained in small quantities? Welding supply houses sell both gases in larger amounts than I would ever use; "party store" helium is diluted. - but maybe that's what successful balloon flights use?
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John AE5X
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My local Airgas distributor will order a small hydrogen cylinder. It looks like a small CO2 tank and is $48. It comes in 3 grades and I have requested a typical COA for each one to see if the grade matters to us. A cheap hydrogen regulator is $120.?
Colin K6JTH?
On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 11:01 AM John AE5X < ae5x@...> wrote: I'm wondering if anyone can suggest where these gases might be obtained in small quantities? Welding supply houses sell both gases in larger amounts than I would ever use; "party store" helium is diluted. - but maybe that's what successful balloon flights use?
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John AE5X
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You can make your own hydrogen with water, an electrolytic salt (like sodium chloride), and some low voltage DC. ?O2 comes off one electrode and H2 comes off the other. ? You figure out which.?
This is a dirt-simple science fair experiment, so you can Google for more info. ? ?
73 Jim N6OTQ? Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.?
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On May 28, 2022, at 1:07 PM, Colin Kaminski <colinskaminski@...> wrote:
? My local Airgas distributor will order a small hydrogen cylinder. It looks like a small CO2 tank and is $48. It comes in 3 grades and I have requested a typical COA for each one to see if the grade matters to us. A cheap hydrogen regulator is $120.?
Colin K6JTH? On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 11:01 AM John AE5X < ae5x@...> wrote: I'm wondering if anyone can suggest where these gases might be obtained in small quantities? Welding supply houses sell both gases in larger amounts than I would ever use; "party store" helium is diluted. - but maybe that's what successful balloon flights use?
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John AE5X
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You can make your own hydrogen with water, an electrolytic salt (like sodium chloride), and some low voltage DC.? O2 comes off one electrode and H2 comes off the other. ? You figure out which.?
This is a dirt-simple science fair experiment, so you can Google for more info. ? ?
73 Jim N6OTQ? Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.? ? My local Airgas distributor will order a small hydrogen cylinder. It looks like a small CO2 tank and is $48. It comes in 3 grades and I have requested a typical COA for each one to see if the grade matters to us. A cheap hydrogen regulator is $120.?
Colin K6JTH? On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 11:01 AM John AE5X < ae5x@...> wrote: I'm wondering if anyone can suggest where these gases might be obtained in small quantities? Welding supply houses sell both gases in larger amounts than I would ever use; "party store" helium is diluted. - but maybe that's what successful balloon flights use?
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John AE5X
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IIRC, hydrogen is lighter than helium but has larger atoms, so it doesn’t deflate a balloon as quickly as helium. ??
?But if you’re careless, it is rather reactive. ?
73 Jim N6OTQ? Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.?
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On May 28, 2022, at 1:20 PM, W2BEE <itsadealnow@...> wrote:
? You can make your own hydrogen with water, an electrolytic salt (like sodium chloride), and some low voltage DC.? O2 comes off one electrode and H2 comes off the other. ? You figure out which.?
This is a dirt-simple science fair experiment, so you can Google for more info. ? ?
73 Jim N6OTQ? Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.? ? My local Airgas distributor will order a small hydrogen cylinder. It looks like a small CO2 tank and is $48. It comes in 3 grades and I have requested a typical COA for each one to see if the grade matters to us. A cheap hydrogen regulator is $120.?
Colin K6JTH? On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 11:01 AM John AE5X < ae5x@...> wrote: I'm wondering if anyone can suggest where these gases might be obtained in small quantities? Welding supply houses sell both gases in larger amounts than I would ever use; "party store" helium is diluted. - but maybe that's what successful balloon flights use?
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John AE5X
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Umm, yes. ?Filling a balloon with it is left as an exercise for the student?
How bad is party store helium, assuming you can get it?
Also, how much do you need? ?Local stores appear to have 15 CuFt for $50 or 9 CuFt for $24.
And I have an 80 CuFt scuba tank with Heliox (80% helium, 20% oxygen), but not sure how buoyant that is. ?Scuba stores will certainly sell helium but you have to have tanks and they may require a ’trimix’ course certification, so that’s not for everyone.
Hydrogen would have the greatest lift, yes?
73, Willie N1JBJ
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You can make your own hydrogen
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Hydrogen is lighter but also a bigger molecule so it is less likely to leak.?
Colin K6JTH?
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I don’t have answers to your questions. Here’s a BBC report explaining why the availability and price of helium has become so unstable.
—Mike Perry, WA4MP
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Hydrogen would have the CHEAPEST lift. ?
FWIW, the reason that the Hindenburg was full of hydrogen was that the US wouldn’t sell helium to Nazi Germany.?
The Hindenburg made multiple trips across the Atlantic using hydrogen without any issues. ? However, part of the disaster was that the coating on the outer envelope was thermite. ?
Looked nice, repelled UV very nicely, but was more flammable than hydro. ?
73 Jim N6OTQ?
Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.?
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On May 28, 2022, at 1:57 PM, Colin Kaminski <colinskaminski@...> wrote:
?Hydrogen is lighter but also a bigger molecule so it is less likely to leak.?
Colin K6JTH?
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Or use lye, aluminum and water and avoid the electrolysis...................use lots of care in this reaction; it generates a lot of heat as well as potentially explosive hydrogen gas. Do this outdoors and away from any ignition sources. You have been warned!
Lee KX4TT
On Saturday, 28 May 2022, 02:12:59 pm GMT-4, Jim Strohm <jim.strohm@...> wrote:
You can make your own hydrogen with water, an electrolytic salt (like sodium chloride), and some low voltage DC. ?O2 comes off one electrode and H2 comes off the other. ?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d85OX6yEwE0
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Yes, I am aware of the Hindenburg and have no desire to re-enact it in miniature. Regarding electrolysis, would the (necessary) addition of an electrolytic affect the composition/dilution of the gases produced? It would seem so, but I'm no chemist.
Here's a YouTube video of the process:
Those of you interested in the Hindenburg, and science in general, might find "" interesting. Germany's pre-H development of Zeppelins makes for a fascinating read, from the request by the German government in WWI not to eat sausages (so that the intestinal linings of cows and sheep) could be used as the internal airbags in Zepps), to the affect of high altitudes on airship crews, to the circumnavigation of the Graf Zeppelin.
73,
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John AE5X
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Yeah - you generate oxygen as well as hydrogen. Hydrogen develops at the anode and oxygen is found at the cathode.
Lee KX4TT
On Saturday, 28 May 2022, 04:04:12 pm GMT-4, John AE5X <ae5x@...> wrote:
Yes, I am aware of the Hindenburg and have no desire to re-enact it in miniature. Regarding electrolysis, would the (necessary) addition of an electrolytic affect the composition/dilution of the gases produced? It would seem so, but I'm no chemist.
Here's a YouTube video of the process:
Those of you interested in the Hindenburg, and science in general, might find "" interesting. Germany's pre-H development of Zeppelins makes for a fascinating read, from the request by the German government in WWI not to eat sausages (so that the intestinal linings of cows and sheep) could be used as the internal airbags in Zepps), to the affect of high altitudes on airship crews, to the circumnavigation of the Graf Zeppelin.
73,
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John AE5X
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A good source of hydrogen in small bottles is a welding supply/gas shop.? If they don't have, they can get.
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Jim, W7EZN? ? 73!
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As reported by some group:
- Because of the global helium shortage, the National Weather Service warned that it would need to reduce the frequency of weather balloon launches, according to Axios.
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The Hindenberg did NOT have an exterior covering of thermite. That's a myth perpetuated by those wishing to decrease the danger of filling a dirigible or LTA airship with hydrogen. These same people want hydrogen to be the next "clean fuel", not electric vehicles.
Yes, the Hindenberg had an OUTER coating that used powdered Aluminum as a heat-repellent ingredient. It also used an INNER coating that contained Iron Oxide, to protect from the effects of UV radiation. That is not thermite! The compounds were physically separated!
As an analogy, butyl rubber [polyisobutylene] is used in both C-4 plastic explosives and basketballs but that doesn’t make your basketball a bomb!
The following is a partial list of hydrogen-inflated airships that were destroyed by fire from accidental causes (the list does not include ships shot down in combat operations) : ALL WERE LOST DUE TO IGNITION OF HYDROGEN!
LZ-4 (August 5, 1908);
LZ-6 (September 14, 1910);
LZ-12/Z-III (June 17, 1912);
LZ-10 Schwaben (June 28, 1912);
Akron (July 2, 1912);
LZ-18/L-2 (October 17, 1913);
LZ-30/Z-XI (May 20, 1915);
LZ-40/L-10 (September 3, 1915);
SL-6 (November 10, 1915);
LZ-52/L-18 (November 17, 1915);
LZ-31/L-6 and LZ-36/L-9 (September 16, 1916);
LZ-53/L-17 and LZ-69/L-24 (December 28, 1916);
SL-9 (March 30, 1917);
LZ-102/L-57 (October 7, 1917);
LZ-87/LZ-117, LZ-94/L-46, LZ-97/L-51, and LZ-105/L-58 (January 5, 1918);
LZ-104/L-59 (April 7, 1918);
Wingfoot Air Express (July 21, 1919);
R-38/ZR-II (August 23, 1921);
Roma (February 21, 1922);
Dixmude (December 21, 1923);
R101 (October 5, 1930);
LZ-129 Hindenburg (May 6, 1937);
I hope there is clearer thinking on this "outside issue"!
Best Regards,
Michael
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That must be old news source.
The NWS has been using h2 for a LONG time.
Joe KB9KHO
Near Space Sciences
On 5/29/2022 10:09 PM, Mark wrote:
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As reported by some group:
- Because
of the global helium shortage, the National Weather Service
warned that it would need to reduce the frequency of weather
balloon launches, according to Axios.
|
Michael,
I guess you’ve never experimented with thermite. ??
I used a varied mixture to burn out a stump once. ? The classic aluminum-iron thermite mix uses iron oxide in the mix. ?Proportions are flexible, but 50-50 is a good start. ?
This thermite needs a hot “kick” to get it started, but then it burns until exhausted or until it gets to China. ??
My stump experiment used a mix of powdered aluminum and aluminum turnings, and powdered iron. ?The stump was cut off at ground level, with numerous holes drilled into it. ?I added a few “goodies” like titanium and magnesium turnings to keep things going, and put powdered potassium permanganate on top for the igniter. ??
I kicked it off with some glycerin. ? After an initial (and impressive) display from the igniter mix, the rest of the witches brew oxidized the iron into a suitable iron oxide and made thermite, which burned only as quickly as the iron would oxidize.?
After a few hours I got tired of watching it smolder its way to China, so I gave it the garden hose. ?It took an hour to put it out. ??
Here’s my point. ? You DO NOT need the thermite compounds to be in contact with each other to react as thermite, or for them to be the exact chemicals. ?They just need to be in the general vicinity with a suitable ignition source. ?
The hydrogen from one of the Hindenburg’s leaking hydrogen cells, plus a spark either from atmospheric static or from something inside the airship, was enough to kick off the thermite reaction. ??
I’d share my pyrotechnics supplier’s contact info, but I’m concerned that you might make yourself an SK on your first order. ? Or worse, land yourself in Federal prison for misuse of products. ? That has happened. ?
73 Jim N6OTQ?
P.S. Fe/Al is not the only thermite compound formula. ? If you machine reactive and nonreactive metals in your home workshop, you want to sweep up every day, and dispose of your turnings safely. ??
Sent from my quenched-gap spark transmitter.?
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On May 30, 2022, at 7:39 AM, Joe WB9SBD <nss@...> wrote:
?
That must be old news source.
The NWS has been using h2 for a LONG time.
Joe KB9KHO
Near Space Sciences
On 5/29/2022 10:09 PM, Mark wrote:
As reported by some group:
- Because
of the global helium shortage, the National Weather Service
warned that it would need to reduce the frequency of weather
balloon launches, according to Axios.
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I reached out to the nws when we started our balloon project. I spoke with two technicians probably an hour each picking their brain.
They were super excited to hear about what we were doing and very generous with sharing the safety presos they have. They have been using hydrogen for a long time and I believe generate their own at each of the 91 sites.
I was also interested to hear they are only co concerned about 26k meters of data if I recall. They took the beginning of the flight data and start work with it immediately and the. The rest to 26k they save when it hits that altitude. Was interesting… I believe I found that on some YouTube’s as well on various nws channels.
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On May 29, 2022, at 10:09 PM, Mark <venchant@...> wrote:
Because of the global helium shortage, the National Weather Service warned that it would need to reduce the frequency of weather balloon launches, according to Axios.
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Methane, "natural gas", is lighter than air. Also becareful with fire...
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Colin Kaminski
Mike Perry, WA4MP
Lee
Mark K9TR