WSPR on U2 tests.

"andyfoad@..."

I've retitled this thread, since to the best of my knowledge there
is no longer an issue with the PA on 28Mhz once the DDS pot is given
a little tweak.

Now I've done some tests on WSPR.

18Mhz:
Using Spectran as a signal viewer I can see the WSPR trace.
It looks like the right bandwidth.
It decodes OK.
But it still looks like there's on 3 data bit channels rather than 4.
Maybe all 4 are there but the spacing is a bit narrow and this
difference can't be viewed properly on Spectran ?

28Mhz:
Trace looks skinny.
Looks like only 2 data bit channels.
Cannot any any decodes at all.

With only two data sets here it's difficult to make assumptions,
but there is an inference here that the bandwidth is narrowing the
higher you go in frequency.

So by the time you probably get to 10Mhz where I suspect most users
are you would probably see all 4 data bit channels correctly
spaced.

Hope this helps lads..

Vy 73 de Andy G0FTD

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

g3zjo

#1114

On 18/05/2013 09:33, Hans Summers wrote:
PIC are a particular manufacturerYes I know all that, but you knew exactly what I meant and in my engineering circles we always bandied terms about, quickest simplest reference term is PIC and an SI570 does digital synthesis generation of signals and so it can be a DDS if you like, sorry this is OT and silly.
Back to the Ultimate 2. With it Field Effect Switching Devices not PA Transistors.

73 Eddie

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

Hans Summers

#1113

Hi Eddie?

Also note that it is an AVR processor, not PIC :-)

Oh don't start that. :-)? Shall we call them both Non PC (Personal Computer) Processor Devices, like the guy who insisted its not computer less WSPR when you use a PIC because its a microprocessor.

No no it's not such a debate. This is just a simple one. PIC and AVR's are both micro-controllers, quite similar, they are just different families from different manufacturers. It's like BMW and Mercedes. They're both cars. But different manufacturers, and a different range of models in each kind. If you called both cars, that would be fine. But if you called a BMW a Mercedes it wouldn't quite be correct. So it is with PIC's and AVR's.

PIC are a particular manufacturer, see?

AVR's another, see??

73 Hans G0UPL

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

g3zjo

#1112

开云体育

On 18/05/2013 08:54, Hans Summers wrote:

So unfortunately, whatever problems we have to solve, v2.00 vs v2.01 is NOT the solution :-(

Oops yes, checked that it, is v2.01. It was late last night when I decided to drop frequency in steps until WSPR started decoding and when it was not far different to what I remembered reading in the blurb it seemed a bit of a coincidence.

Also note that it is an AVR processor, not PIC :-)

Oh don't start that. :-)? Shall we call them both Non PC (Personal Computer) Processor Devices, like the guy who insisted its not computer less WSPR when you use a PIC because its a microprocessor.

73 Eddie

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

Hans Summers

#1111

Hi Eddie & all

Many many emails are hitting my email box, as well as the ones coming through this forum. Many topics to consider. So please excuse me if I am delayed, or confused, etc :-)

?

Unfortunately my U2 will not produce WSPR much above the stated problem
frequency of the V2 version of the PIC. There is a WSPR data frequency
missing at 28MHz and the noisy, spiky wide bandwidth signal already
described.
I have appealed to Hans for a replacement PIC.

On this particular point, Eddie - the "problem frequency of the V2 version if the PIC": this is NOT related!! The v2.00 version issue was with a SYSTEM clock over 16,777,216MHz - means the crystal frequency of the microprocessor, i.e. the 20MHz crystal. NOT a problem with the OUTPUT frequency setting. Furthermore, the problem manifested itself as incorrect WSPR timing, not frequencies. So that is entirely unrelated. Sending you a new processor won't alter that. In any event you have v2.01, as does 100% of everybody who bought a kit, because no v2.00's were programmed. That problem was found already during beta testing. Anyway you can see that by observing the screen at startup - it will say v2.01, which is the only version out there at the moment!?

So unfortunately, whatever problems we have to solve, v2.00 vs v2.01 is NOT the solution :-(

Also note that it is an AVR processor, not PIC :-)

Still contemplating...

73 Hans G0UPL

Re: Message Error /B

Hans Summers

#1110

Hi Chris

Yes, I see that - inconsistent, you are right! I will correct that in the manual.?

Also I will put it in the v1.09 version along with the other change that was requested. AND, I'll make sure it's in v2.02 for the Ultimate2 builders too!

73 Hans G0UPL

Show quoted text

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Chris D <kq2rp.cw@...> wrote:

?

It would be helpful for someone who wanted to run it as a cw beacon.

The error message section of the instructions does list / as a valid chafacter, but the non-troubleshooting section does not. You may wish to correct that.

Thanks,
Chris
kq2rp

--- In QRPLabs@..., Hans Summers wrote:
>
> Hi Chris
>
> For v1.08, the FSKCW, DFCW, QRSS and CW modes can only have A-Z, 0-9 or
> Space characters in the message. Not /. This is consistently described in
> the instructions. I cannot remember why I put that restriction in. I could
> remove it in v1.09 if you wish?
>
> 73 Hans G0UPL
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Chris D <kq2rp.cw@...> wrote:
>
> > **

> >
> >
> > Went to put my original Ulitmate kit v1.08 chip on as a beacon and had VVV
> > de KQ2RP/B as message and it gives me ERROR: Message. Yet, when I remove
> > the slash, it accepts it. I thought / was a valid character for CW mode?
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > 72,
> > Chris
> > KQ2RP
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

g3zjo

#1109

On 17/05/2013 17:42, andyfoad@... wrote:
Right then lads...Andy & Eddie,

Just done the DDS pot tweek and it sprang to life on 28Mhz!

Not done exhaustive tests yet but at least it's looking like
the RF from the DDS is being amplified by the 4 x BS170's at 9 volts.
Anyone got any confirmed power output figures yet on 28Mhz ?
Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

Yes I've adjusted the blue pot so that the unit functions on 10m
but have not adjusted it for max power as the lower bands suffer.Good show Andy's

Setting the Mark Space Ratio Pot to produce equal mark space on pin 7 of the DDS gives stable operation between the points either side where the signal collapses completely like Andy FTD's and my unit and unstable operation like Andy RWT's. In the unstable condition the filthy squiggle which is output from the DDS will cause heating of the PA device as noted by FTD.

Power level on 28MHz for me is a nice healthy 300mW as measured on the scope.

Unfortunately my U2 will not produce WSPR much above the stated problem frequency of the V2 version of the PIC. There is a WSPR data frequency missing at 28MHz and the noisy, spiky wide bandwidth signal already described.
I have appealed to Hans for a replacement PIC.

I will add captures of the missing data frequency to my folder on here.

73 Eddie G3ZJO

Re: Message Error /B

"Chris D"

#1108

It would be helpful for someone who wanted to run it as a cw beacon.

The error message section of the instructions does list / as a valid chafacter, but the non-troubleshooting section does not. You may wish to correct that.

Thanks,
Chris
kq2rp

Show quoted text

--- In QRPLabs@..., Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:

Hi Chris

For v1.08, the FSKCW, DFCW, QRSS and CW modes can only have A-Z, 0-9 or
Space characters in the message. Not /. This is consistently described in
the instructions. I cannot remember why I put that restriction in. I could
remove it in v1.09 if you wish?

73 Hans G0UPL


On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Chris D <kq2rp.cw@...> wrote:

**


Went to put my original Ulitmate kit v1.08 chip on as a beacon and had VVV
de KQ2RP/B as message and it gives me ERROR: Message. Yet, when I remove
the slash, it accepts it. I thought / was a valid character for CW mode?

Thoughts?

72,
Chris
KQ2RP

Re: Message Error /B

Hans Summers

#1107

Hi Chris

For v1.08, the FSKCW, DFCW, QRSS and CW modes can only have A-Z, 0-9 or Space characters in the message. Not /. This is consistently described in the instructions. I cannot remember why I put that restriction in. I could remove it in v1.09 if you wish?

73 Hans G0UPL

Show quoted text

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Chris D <kq2rp.cw@...> wrote:

?

Went to put my original Ulitmate kit v1.08 chip on as a beacon and had VVV de KQ2RP/B as message and it gives me ERROR: Message. Yet, when I remove the slash, it accepts it. I thought / was a valid character for CW mode?

Thoughts?

72,
Chris
KQ2RP

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

Andy Cutland

#1106

No problem Andy,

My kit is using just the 2 x BS170 at 5v. That is giving 50mw

73's
Andy
GJ7RWT

Show quoted text

From: "andyfoad@..."
To: QRPLabs@...
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: [QRPLabs] Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

Right then lads...Andy & Eddie,

Just done the DDS pot tweek and it sprang to life on 28Mhz!

Not done exhaustive tests yet but at least it's looking like
the RF from the DDS is being amplified by the 4 x BS170's at 9 volts.

Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

> Yes I've adjusted the blue pot so that the unit functions on 10m
> but have not adjusted it for max power as the lower bands suffer.

Not had a chance to try it myself but thanks for bringing that up.
Good to know.

> I am at a sort of half way house. I've been getting a few spots on
> 10m wspr today, the best being 4x1rf at 3.5k km so thats good
> for 50mw out into a random wire.

50mw. Well that stacks up with my crude finger on the 50R resistor
tests so far ;-) I.E. not much heat being generated. Well at least
it initially looks like we're seeing the same results.

I just stuffed the TX on 21Mhz via the 28Mhz LPF and that seemed
quite warm. I dunno what the S11 of the LPF is at 21Mhz or it's
response curve so there may be losses and unrepresentative.

Frankly I'm surprised that the BS170's have enough gain do work
at the higher freqs, so I'm not complaining.

Off now to build a 17m LPF and then the rest after some more tests.

Looks like this is going to be a fruitful weekend.

Thanks Eddie and Andy for you observations and contribution to this
thread.

Anyone got any confirmed power output figures yet on 28Mhz ?

73 de Andy G0FTD

Re: Help required with gps unit.

Andy Cutland

#1105

Hi Phil,

Thats perfect, I can check the ground pin to get the correct way round now.

Thanks very much.

73's
Andy

Show quoted text

From: Philip
To: QRPLabs@...
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 5:40 PM
Subject: [QRPLabs] Re: Help required with gps unit.

Hi Andy

I've emailed you a PDF via your Googlemail
which might help....

Philip G4JVF

--- In QRPLabs@..., Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:
>
> My gps unit arrived this morning but I need help in identifying the pin outs on the 22 pin socket. So I need to find out where pin 1 is etc.
>
> The unit is the Trimble Silvana code 68677-00.
>
> I intend to use the gps purely for the 1pps signal from pin 20 for frequency and timing stability.
>
>
> To switch the unit into run I have to pull high pin 8. I am new to this sort of thing so advice on exactly what to do here would be most appreciated.
>
> Any help would be great. Thanks
>
> 73's
> De Andy
> GJ7RWT
>

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX, some progress ;-)

"andyfoad@..."

#1104

Right then lads...Andy & Eddie,

Just done the DDS pot tweek and it sprang to life on 28Mhz!

Not done exhaustive tests yet but at least it's looking like
the RF from the DDS is being amplified by the 4 x BS170's at 9 volts.

Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

Yes I've adjusted the blue pot so that the unit functions on 10m
but have not adjusted it for max power as the lower bands suffer.Not had a chance to try it myself but thanks for bringing that up.
Good to know.

I am at a sort of half way house. I've been getting a few spots on
10m wspr today, the best being 4x1rf at 3.5k km so thats good
for 50mw out into a random wire.50mw. Well that stacks up with my crude finger on the 50R resistor
tests so far ;-) I.E. not much heat being generated. Well at least
it initially looks like we're seeing the same results.

I just stuffed the TX on 21Mhz via the 28Mhz LPF and that seemed
quite warm. I dunno what the S11 of the LPF is at 21Mhz or it's
response curve so there may be losses and unrepresentative.

Frankly I'm surprised that the BS170's have enough gain do work
at the higher freqs, so I'm not complaining.

Off now to build a 17m LPF and then the rest after some more tests.

Looks like this is going to be a fruitful weekend.

Thanks Eddie and Andy for you observations and contribution to this
thread.

Anyone got any confirmed power output figures yet on 28Mhz ?

73 de Andy G0FTD

Re: Help required with gps unit.

"Philip"

#1103

Hi Andy

I've emailed you a PDF via your Googlemail
which might help....

Philip  G4JVF

Show quoted text

--- In QRPLabs@..., Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

My gps unit arrived this morning but I need help in identifying the pin outs on the 22 pin socket. So I need to find out where pin 1 is etc.

The unit is the Trimble Silvana code 68677-00.

I intend to use the gps purely for the 1pps signal from pin 20 for frequency and timing stability.

To switch the unit into run I have to pull high pin 8. I am new to this sort of thing so advice on exactly what to do here would be most appreciated.

Any help would be great. Thanks

73's
De Andy
GJ7RWT

Help required with gps unit.

Andy Cutland

#1101

My gps unit arrived this morning but I need help in identifying the pin outs on the 22 pin socket. So I need to find out where pin 1 is etc.

The unit is the Trimble Silvana code 68677-00.

I intend to use the gps purely for the 1pps signal from pin 20 for frequency and timing stability.

To switch the unit into run I have to pull high pin 8. I am new to this sort of thing so advice on exactly what to do here would be most appreciated.

Any help would be great. Thanks

73's

De Andy

GJ7RWT

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX.

Andy Cutland

#1100

Hi Eddie,

Yes I've adjusted the blue pot so that the unit functions on 10m but have not adjusted it for max power as the lower bands suffer. I am at a sort of half way house. I've been getting a few spots on 10m wspr today, the best being 4x1rf at 3.5k km so thats good for50mw out into a random wire.

My gps unit arrived this morning but I will need to ask members for help with the pin outs. I will put that on a separate post.

Thanks for your help

73's
De Andy
GJ7RWT

Show quoted text

From: g3zjo
To: QRPLabs@...
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX.

Hi Andy

Have you adjusted the Blue pot on the DDS board, if you adjust for max out on 28MHz your U2 will be stable, I am sure yours is adjusted just on the edge.
Also I bet there is nothing wrong with the other PIC chip.

73 Eddie

On 16/05/2013 11:33, Andy Cutland wrote:

?

Hi Eddie,

Mine is running on 10m ok at the moment but can be prone to problems at startup. I found the best way to check was monitor the swr into a known low ser antenna for the frequency being used. If its high on startup you know something is wrong. I am quite sure its the processor chip not being happy at higher frequencies.

73's
Andy
GJ7RWT

------------------------------
On Thu, May 16, 2013 2:39 AM PDT g3zjo wrote:

>On 15/05/2013 20:16, andyfoad@... wrote:
>> Can't find nothing wrong.
>>
>> So I'm totally baffled as to why the amplifier is not amplifying
>> on both PCB's ;-)
>Andy / Hans
>
>Andy have been following your woes, here, I understand that you are
>using 28MHz. I wonder how many U2's are on 28MHz and working.
>
>I decide to do a test for you by building up the 28MHz LPF, too late for
>testing last night.
>
>Mine runs fine on 7MHz and 3.5MHz but set it up for 28MHz with the LPF
>in and there is no RF out and hot PA device yet the DDS is audible on an
>RX exactly the same as yours.
>
>Andy GJ7RWT also reports "on 10m and all hell let loose".
>
>Problem somewhere Hans? I can't think what at the moment.
>
>73 Eddie G3ZJO
>

Re: PA problem on new QRSS TX.

g3zjo

#1099

开云体育

Hi Andy

Have you adjusted the Blue pot on the DDS board, if you adjust for max out on 28MHz your U2 will be stable, I am sure yours is adjusted just on the edge.
Also I bet there is nothing wrong with the other PIC chip.

73 Eddie

On 16/05/2013 11:33, Andy Cutland wrote:

Show quoted text

?

Hi Eddie,

Mine is running on 10m ok at the moment but can be prone to problems at startup. I found the best way to check was monitor the swr into a known low ser antenna for the frequency being used. If its high on startup you know something is wrong. I am quite sure its the processor chip not being happy at higher frequencies.

73's
Andy
GJ7RWT

------------------------------
On Thu, May 16, 2013 2:39 AM PDT g3zjo wrote:

>On 15/05/2013 20:16, andyfoad@... wrote:
>> Can't find nothing wrong.
>>
>> So I'm totally baffled as to why the amplifier is not amplifying
>> on both PCB's ;-)
>Andy / Hans
>
>Andy have been following your woes, here, I understand that you are
>using 28MHz. I wonder how many U2's are on 28MHz and working.
>
>I decide to do a test for you by building up the 28MHz LPF, too late for
>testing last night.
>
>Mine runs fine on 7MHz and 3.5MHz but set it up for 28MHz with the LPF
>in and there is no RF out and hot PA device yet the DDS is audible on an
>RX exactly the same as yours.
>
>Andy GJ7RWT also reports "on 10m and all hell let loose".
>
>Problem somewhere Hans? I can't think what at the moment.
>
>73 Eddie G3ZJO
>

Message Error /B

"Chris D"

#1098

Went to put my original Ulitmate kit v1.08 chip on as a beacon and had VVV de KQ2RP/B as message and it gives me ERROR: Message.  Yet, when I remove the slash, it accepts it. I thought / was a valid character for CW mode?

Thoughts?

72,
Chris
KQ2RP

Re: Ultimate2 QRSS kit and wspr

donald.vosper@...

#1097

Hi
Thanks to those who replied.
for some reason I am not getting all of the post coming through to my email but I now them when I visit the group.
I was setting my time to gmt and have reset it to bst but not sure if that is an issue.
I added 50Hz increments to the standard 20m frequency and I think I ended up at about 250Hz up and am now getting spotted.
I have reduced the voltage back to 5V.
I agree the power  does seem a bit high but I don't think the scope is that far out.
With three bs170s it seems to flatten out at 1W with 9V.
Thanks for all the advice. Don't think I will worry about the GPS for now.
Cheers
Don

Re: Ultimate2 QRSS kit and wspr

Barry Chambers

#1096

开云体育

On 17/05/2013 10:19, Tony Volpe wrote:

???

Don,

Congratulations on completing the project.

You seem to be getting a heck of a lot of power out of it for 5 v. Mine puts out 140mw with one BS170.

Re WSPR.

With this kit, there are two key factors in getting decoded: Exact time keeping, and being on frequency.

The first is easy really. Use an atomic clock such as this one:???

The other is more tricky - fiddly is a better word. My kit as built was set up with the standard settings of 125,000,000 and 14.097100 in the DDS clock setting and frequency. I got no spots at all. I tried measuring the DDS frequency but in the end incremented the transmit frequency 50 hz at a time until the wspr messages appeared on my own receiver and decoded. Beware that you will see many spurious signals because of overloading as you do this, but you will know when you hit the right one, because it will be much stronger than the others.???

I am currently running my DDS clock at 125,000,000 but my transmit frequency setting at 14.071480 which produces an actual output frequency of 14.097159, comfortably in the WSPR band. The cause of this disparity is that the DDS is not actually dead on 125mhz.

My time keeping without GPS was well off. The system clock in factory set up mode was 20mhz, but my clock is now keeping very good time day to day when set at 20,000,728. It has not moved at all in the last twelve hours tested against the bbc time pips.

These values will probably vary from circuit to circuit by small amounts because of component tolerance differences, but you could give them a try if you want.

As for GPS - mine won't work with a working gps module that works perfectly on the earlier kit with the same connections. If I solve that, I'll let you know how.

Good luck. You will have fun when it gets on frequency and on time.

G0BZB Tony

On 17 May 2013 09:13, <donald.vosper@...> wrote:

???

Hi
Just assembled the kit with no problems.
Mastered the menu system and entered the data for wspr.
Getting 10V p-p, approx 250mW into a dummy load on 5V regulated supply with full set of BS170s. Although, as the instructions say , not a lot of difference with 5V.
It appears to be putting out a signal but after one or two sessions on 20M with a g5rv but no-one seems to be reporting my signals yet.
Perhaps there is something in the setting up that I have missed.
also I am not familiar with GPS modules. Is there one at a sensible price that is suggested for use with the kit?
Regards
Don m5aky

Don

I can second some of Tony's remarks, especially re variations from kit to kit.

Without GPS, my clock seems to keep good time without tweaking the 20MHz xtal frequency in the menu but I'll need to keep it running for a day to finally confirm that. Re WSPR frequency, on 20m, to transmit on 14097100, I've actually set my menu frequency to 14096850. This is due to the 125MHz xtal in the DDS not being quite on 125MHz. I have several of the Chinese DDS modules in other projects and they all have some frequency offset - usually several hundred Hz at 20/30m.

Operating the U2 using a GPS module seems to be causing some difficulties for Tony and me (any other reports please). The 406A GPS module seems to give the correct Maidenhead locator for my location but the time seems random. I've tried with the pull-up resistors as pull-up or pull-down (i.e connected to +5v or 0v). Both give a time display but it is different! In one case, the clock shows hrs, mins and secs but the secs increment in twos every second (trigging on both edges of the 1pps GPS pulses?). In the other case, the clock shows hrs and mins correctly but the secs are random and sometimes get corrected to the right value until the next 1 sec count when it goes random again. This presumably must be due to random variations in the interface voltage levels between the GPS and the ATMega? In the menu, I seem to need "Invert GPS" to be "on"

I hope some one can suggest a workaround for this soon as for me it's spoiling what is otherwise an excellent piece of work by Hans.

-- 

73

Barry, G8AGN

Re: Ultimate2 QRSS kit and wspr

"Don Vosper"

#1095

Hi Andy,
Thanks for the reply.
I will try the frame times you suggest and look a the gps modules on Hans' site.
It may be that I'm not putting out a good enough signal so I'm in process of adding a varable supply to the PA so I can increase the power a bit.
Cheers
Don m5aky