Re: Friday Five November 8
Fascism is a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime that
exalts nation and often race above the individual. It is associated
with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial
leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social
regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition. This is
exactly what Donald Trump proposes.
2.?
Should a new president be allowed to hire private
entities to vet his appointees?
Only if the new president pays for it and no government subsidy is
allowed.
3.? Were
you surprised by the apparent outcome of the
presidential election?- remembering that the actual
election doesn't occur?until the electoral college
votes?
Yes. Many people were fooled.
4.? What
is the strangest rumor you have heard this election
season?
It was the false accusation that Haitian immigrants in Ohio were
eating people's pets.
5.? Do
you expect major unrest after the election?
No.
Aloha,
Celeste Rogers
|
Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
?
Best expression I have seentyet!
Marvin
?
?
On Nov 7, 2024, at 20:32, Darrell King <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:
?
1.? What is a fascist?
?
Just came across this, from the Daily Sceptic:
?
Fascism for Dummies
A fascist has been elected 47th President of the United States of America.
Forgive me, but I think everyone has lost their mind.
I was just at a conference where a retired Anglican vicaress, during an academic lecture, advocated that we listen to?The Rest is Politics. This is a podcast I have never listened to: though I may now listen to the bits ¡®Steerpike¡¯ has excerpted??which indicate how those two feeble representatives of the New Scottish Enlightenment, Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart, have entirely failed to compute how the victory of a fascist could ever have taken place over a balanced, liberal, glass-ceiling-oriented SNL-sanctioned lady like Kamala Harris.
A few days before the election the?Guardian?published a??on Trump which asked the most important completely stupid question of our time, ¡°Is Trump a Fascist?¡±
However, in a spirit of ecumenical indulgence, let us analyse.
I take fascism to be:
1. a name adopted by Mussolini for his Italian political movement,
2. by derivation, a general term for a strutting, mechanised, military mode of early 20th-century politics, opposed to communism, in favour of the nation, and
3. by further derivation ¨C helped along by the utter defeat of the Axis in 1945 and by the assimilation of thorough no-enemy-to-the-Leftism in Western politics after 1945 ¨C an easy term of political abuse. In effect, since almost no one calls himself or herself a fascist, the word ¡®fascist¡¯ is simply a term of political abuse.
Yet look how the raft of experts summoned by the?Guardian?pretends that it is a term of analysis.
This current spate of abuse began when John Kelly said Trump was a fascist. Kamala Harris agreed. Why not? And then out came the journalists and professors.
Expert 1: Jason Stanley, Professor of Philosophy at Yale University.
Expert 2: Dr Brian Hughes, Associate Director of the Polarisation and Extremism Research and Innovation?at American University.
Expert 3: Heidi Beirich, Ph.D., the co-founder of the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism.
Expert 4: Francesco Marone, Assistant Professor at the University of Teramo,? and a researcher at the Italian Institute for International Political Studies ¨C ¡°whose own country gave birth to fascism¡±, the?Guardian?adds, absurdly.
They are all experts on Right-wing extremism. Academics, begod. Except they aren¡¯t academic at all. In fact, they are all extreme opponents of ¡°Right-wing extremism¡±. Not only that. They seem to be opponents of everything on the Right, and proceed by a charming logic that turns ¡®Right¡¯ into ¨C ¡®far Right¡¯ into ¨C ¡®fascist¡¯.
Let¡¯s quote ¡®em:
- Stanley: ¡°There couldn¡¯t be a more obvious example of a fascist social and political movement about to take power¡ [Trump will] replace the government at all levels with loyalists¡ Political opponents will be targeted¡ America will be a one-party state from now on¡¡± etc.
- Hughes: ¡°Fascism isn¡¯t a binary. Fascism is a process¡ there has been a lot of denialism, but the symptoms keep adding up¡ targeting political enemies¡ lawfare¡¡± etc.
- Beirich: ¡°Racist statements¡ race science¡ vile history¡ great replacement theory¡ empowered far-Right movements¡¡±
I am bored, but Francesco Marone, the fourth expert, says that Trump isn¡¯t a fascist. Oh dear. However, he is authoritarian, nationalist, male chauvinist, has a cult of personality etc. Oh, and a propensity to demonise political opponents. Just enough to persuade the?Guardian?sub-editor to keep this expert in the article.
Lord! Pots, kettles, black. These experts are evidently experts?in?politics, not experts?about?politics. For is it not true, and evident, that?everyone in politics demonises political opponents, for a while, and then, usefully, after winning or losing power,?demonstrates the usual political flexibility by ceasing to do so?(by exhibiting a bit of pragmatism or magnanimity)? Consider, say, the Democrats. Did they not demonise Trump? It is not as if Biden and Harris have been waving white flags or washing Trump¡¯s feet for the past five years. Wasn¡¯t ¡®lawfare¡¯ used against Trump?
I want to hold Jason Stanley, Yale Professor, to his prediction that 2024 now marks the end of the era of meaningful federal elections and the establishment of a one-party state in America. Jason and the Predictonauts.
Let me take a look at this Professor Stanley. He has written a lot of books, but he appears not to know the difference between a mote and a beam. (Ah, yes, Professor, that is a mote in my eye. But what is that in your eye? Is it a beam? Silence. Ah, he would like to talk a bit more about the mote in my eye.) Incidentally, he also has a strange form of reversed colour blindness which means he cannot see that both pots and kettles are black.
In?How Propaganda Works?(published by Princeton University Press in 2015) he studies the sort of propaganda he dislikes and refuses to consider the possibility that there is a sort of propaganda he likes and that he might be writing it. Princeton!
In?How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them??(published by Random House in 2018) he writes that ¡°a certain kind of far-Right nationalism¡± = ¡°fascist politics¡±. He discourses ¨C of course ¨C about?Mein Kampf?and the?Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He blandly suggests that fascism ¡°covers up structural inequality¡±, and adds that it involves an ¡°irrational fear of immigrants¡±. He says this without asking the obvious sceptical (equal and opposite) question which is whether he himself suffers from an irrational fear of his fellow-citizens. Random House!
In?Erasing History: How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future?(2024) ¨C but I am bored. Look at the blurb, where a Pulitzer Prize-winning author explains that?they?(we know who they are) ¡°promote the divisive politics of us versus them while denigrating cooperation, compromise and respect for others¡±, while?we, I take it, do the other thing. And, oh, no,?we?are not divisive.?They?are divisive,?we?are not: but since they are divisive, we¡¯ll condemn them, though, er,?we?are not being divisive in condemning them, just caring, inclusive etc.
This should be engraved in stone somewhere.
It is the logic of the antifascists:
- We are not divisive.
- We have a position.
- It is true, authoritative, established.
- Our opponents oppose it.
- Therefore they are divisive.
- Divisiveness has no place in society.
- Ergo, we shall suppress, censor, exclude them.
- (No, we are still not divisive!)?????????
¡°Guilty¡±, says Justice Cocklecarrot, throwing his gavel at Professor Stanley¡¯s head.
Where do we end? Well, the anti-fascists are fascists. They are perfectly dialectical, but just a bit dumb. Dummies. Hence this article, written to educate the dumb antifascists. Perhaps they should consider being a bit more narcissistic ¨C a word they hate (the retired Anglican vicaress told me that Trump is a ¡°narcissist¡±, and I hear that Rory Stewart sibilantly thinks so too) ¨C as that would mean at least that they might look in a mirror occasionally and notice the beams in their own eyes. But no. They throw abuse (¡°fascism¡±) at their opponents, and then engage in a form of politics that is just a teeny weeny bit,?un petit peu?¨C fascist. Hush!
The word ¡®fascist¡¯ is a term of abuse. It is used mostly by the Left of the Right. But what is sauce for the goose-stepper is sauce for the gender-gander. And just as establishment Leftists like to tell us that the ¡°far Right¡± and ¡°populist¡± masses are ¡°fascist¡±, so, in best sceptical manner, there should be some on the other side who look at the establishment Leftists and say that they are the fascists too.
Let¡¯s make a start.
On November 5th 2024, Trump, fascist, defeated Harris, fascist.
We are all fascists now.
It doesn¡¯t mean anything, just a term of abuse.
Dr. James Alexander is a Professor in the Department of Political Science at Bilkent University in Turkey.
?
¡ª¡ª
|
Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
On Nov 7, 2024, at 20:32, Darrell King <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:
1.? What is a fascist?
Just came across this, from the Daily Sceptic:
Fascism for DummiesA fascist has been elected 47th President of the United States of America. Forgive me, but I think everyone has lost their mind. I was just at a conference where a retired Anglican vicaress, during an academic lecture, advocated that we listen to?The Rest is Politics. This is a podcast I have never listened to: though I may now listen to the bits ¡®Steerpike¡¯ has excerpted??which indicate how those two feeble representatives of the New Scottish Enlightenment, Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart, have entirely failed to compute how the victory of a fascist could ever have taken place over a balanced, liberal, glass-ceiling-oriented SNL-sanctioned lady like Kamala Harris. A few days before the election the?Guardian?published a??on Trump which asked the most important completely stupid question of our time, ¡°Is Trump a Fascist?¡± However, in a spirit of ecumenical indulgence, let us analyse. I take fascism to be: 1. a name adopted by Mussolini for his Italian political movement, 2. by derivation, a general term for a strutting, mechanised, military mode of early 20th-century politics, opposed to communism, in favour of the nation, and 3. by further derivation ¨C helped along by the utter defeat of the Axis in 1945 and by the assimilation of thorough no-enemy-to-the-Leftism in Western politics after 1945 ¨C an easy term of political abuse. In effect, since almost no one calls himself or herself a fascist, the word ¡®fascist¡¯ is simply a term of political abuse. Yet look how the raft of experts summoned by the?Guardian?pretends that it is a term of analysis. This current spate of abuse began when John Kelly said Trump was a fascist. Kamala Harris agreed. Why not? And then out came the journalists and professors. Expert 1: Jason Stanley, Professor of Philosophy at Yale University. Expert 2: Dr Brian Hughes, Associate Director of the Polarisation and Extremism Research and Innovation?at American University. Expert 3: Heidi Beirich, Ph.D., the co-founder of the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism. Expert 4: Francesco Marone, Assistant Professor at the University of Teramo,? and a researcher at the Italian Institute for International Political Studies ¨C ¡°whose own country gave birth to fascism¡±, the?Guardian?adds, absurdly. They are all experts on Right-wing extremism. Academics, begod. Except they aren¡¯t academic at all. In fact, they are all extreme opponents of ¡°Right-wing extremism¡±. Not only that. They seem to be opponents of everything on the Right, and proceed by a charming logic that turns ¡®Right¡¯ into ¨C ¡®far Right¡¯ into ¨C ¡®fascist¡¯. Let¡¯s quote ¡®em: - Stanley: ¡°There couldn¡¯t be a more obvious example of a fascist social and political movement about to take power¡ [Trump will] replace the government at all levels with loyalists¡ Political opponents will be targeted¡ America will be a one-party state from now on¡¡± etc.
- Hughes: ¡°Fascism isn¡¯t a binary. Fascism is a process¡ there has been a lot of denialism, but the symptoms keep adding up¡ targeting political enemies¡ lawfare¡¡± etc.
- Beirich: ¡°Racist statements¡ race science¡ vile history¡ great replacement theory¡ empowered far-Right movements¡¡±
I am bored, but Francesco Marone, the fourth expert, says that Trump isn¡¯t a fascist. Oh dear. However, he is authoritarian, nationalist, male chauvinist, has a cult of personality etc. Oh, and a propensity to demonise political opponents. Just enough to persuade the?Guardian?sub-editor to keep this expert in the article. Lord! Pots, kettles, black. These experts are evidently experts?in?politics, not experts?about?politics. For is it not true, and evident, that?everyone in politics demonises political opponents, for a while, and then, usefully, after winning or losing power,?demonstrates the usual political flexibility by ceasing to do so?(by exhibiting a bit of pragmatism or magnanimity)? Consider, say, the Democrats. Did they not demonise Trump? It is not as if Biden and Harris have been waving white flags or washing Trump¡¯s feet for the past five years. Wasn¡¯t ¡®lawfare¡¯ used against Trump? I want to hold Jason Stanley, Yale Professor, to his prediction that 2024 now marks the end of the era of meaningful federal elections and the establishment of a one-party state in America. Jason and the Predictonauts. Let me take a look at this Professor Stanley. He has written a lot of books, but he appears not to know the difference between a mote and a beam. (Ah, yes, Professor, that is a mote in my eye. But what is that in your eye? Is it a beam? Silence. Ah, he would like to talk a bit more about the mote in my eye.) Incidentally, he also has a strange form of reversed colour blindness which means he cannot see that both pots and kettles are black. In?How Propaganda Works?(published by Princeton University Press in 2015) he studies the sort of propaganda he dislikes and refuses to consider the possibility that there is a sort of propaganda he likes and that he might be writing it. Princeton! In?How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them??(published by Random House in 2018) he writes that ¡°a certain kind of far-Right nationalism¡± = ¡°fascist politics¡±. He discourses ¨C of course ¨C about?Mein Kampf?and the?Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He blandly suggests that fascism ¡°covers up structural inequality¡±, and adds that it involves an ¡°irrational fear of immigrants¡±. He says this without asking the obvious sceptical (equal and opposite) question which is whether he himself suffers from an irrational fear of his fellow-citizens. Random House! In?Erasing History: How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future?(2024) ¨C but I am bored. Look at the blurb, where a Pulitzer Prize-winning author explains that?they?(we know who they are) ¡°promote the divisive politics of us versus them while denigrating cooperation, compromise and respect for others¡±, while?we, I take it, do the other thing. And, oh, no,?we?are not divisive.?They?are divisive,?we?are not: but since they are divisive, we¡¯ll condemn them, though, er,?we?are not being divisive in condemning them, just caring, inclusive etc. This should be engraved in stone somewhere. It is the logic of the antifascists: - We are not divisive.
- We have a position.
- It is true, authoritative, established.
- Our opponents oppose it.
- Therefore they are divisive.
- Divisiveness has no place in society.
- Ergo, we shall suppress, censor, exclude them.
- (No, we are still not divisive!)?????????
¡°Guilty¡±, says Justice Cocklecarrot, throwing his gavel at Professor Stanley¡¯s head. Where do we end? Well, the anti-fascists are fascists. They are perfectly dialectical, but just a bit dumb. Dummies. Hence this article, written to educate the dumb antifascists. Perhaps they should consider being a bit more narcissistic ¨C a word they hate (the retired Anglican vicaress told me that Trump is a ¡°narcissist¡±, and I hear that Rory Stewart sibilantly thinks so too) ¨C as that would mean at least that they might look in a mirror occasionally and notice the beams in their own eyes. But no. They throw abuse (¡°fascism¡±) at their opponents, and then engage in a form of politics that is just a teeny weeny bit,?un petit peu?¨C fascist. Hush! The word ¡®fascist¡¯ is a term of abuse. It is used mostly by the Left of the Right. But what is sauce for the goose-stepper is sauce for the gender-gander. And just as establishment Leftists like to tell us that the ¡°far Right¡± and ¡°populist¡± masses are ¡°fascist¡±, so, in best sceptical manner, there should be some on the other side who look at the establishment Leftists and say that they are the fascists too. Let¡¯s make a start. On November 5th 2024, Trump, fascist, defeated Harris, fascist. We are all fascists now. It doesn¡¯t mean anything, just a term of abuse. Dr. James Alexander is a Professor in the Department of Political Science at Bilkent University in Turkey.
¡ª¡ª
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Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
3.? Were you surprised by the apparent outcome of the presidential election?- remembering that the actual election doesn't occur?until the electoral college votes?
Darrell answered.
Not really. I felt?it could go either way, but I was little surprised by size of the gap favoring the Republicans.
?
Just about all the wide gap shows, I'm guessing, is that people who live in and are dependent on the close control of the governments of large cities are not yet as numerous as the rest of us. ?Have a look at your local maps showing where the red and blue votes came from. ?Ohio, my state, has no mega cities, but its four largish cities are all blue and all the rest of the state is red. ?It's dramatic. ?It's the same with the contiguous forty states: ?blue in the tightly packed coastal regions and red everywhere else.
People who live in tightly-packed agglomerations are, I think, much more prone to groupthink than the rest of us. ?Just to survive, city people need in a thousand ways to all behave in exactly the same way, and behaving leads directly to thinking. ?Cities breed mono-minds. ?Mono-minds vote for the machine.
¡ª¡ª
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Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
On Nov 7, 2024, at 20:32, Darrell King <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:
1.? What is a fascist?
An adherent of facism? I am not sure of the implied question, but my knee-jerk is that the term popularly refers?to anyone supporting a dictator.
often?Fascism?:?a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the?) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized??government headed by a??leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition?--
It's come by the political opposition and the news media to mean "a very, very, very bad heterosexual White male plotting and sneering frightfully and frighteningly just off stage". ?My sense is that they think that by calling Trump a "Fascist" or a "Nazi", instead of simply "an aspiring dictator", they sound as though they have a deep understanding of history and so, as highly educated experts, can be trusted to know whereof they proclaim. ?It's propaganda language. ?All they're really saying is that he is an evil man who if elected and inaugurated would do unbelievably beastly things to the transsexual children upon whom the shining future of this disgracefully racist country depends . ?The deplorable fools elected him anyway.
¡ª¡ª
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Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
?
?
1.? What is a fascist?
Beside the obvious - I was looking for historical fascism - which first is credited to MUssolini in Italy.? I'm not sure that Zazi Germany really qualified as such - but the allies in WWII wanted to portray Germany as massively evil - even though the US was breaking international law right and left in 1940 and 1941.
2.? Should a new president be allowed to hire private entities to vet his appointees?
I would say emphatically yes - given the way the FBI and CIA have been playing games for the last ten years.
3.? Were you surprised by the apparent outcome of the presidential election?- remembering that the actual election doesn't occur?until the electoral college votes?
A little - but what was really interesting was that Trump got aobut a mill9ion fewer votes than he did in 2020, but Harris got more than ten million less than B Biden four years ago.
4.? What is the strangest rumor you have heard this election season?
Hard to say but the strangest was definitely the Clemson University football coach having to cast a provisional ballot because his sone of the same name had already? voted - the Right made quite a stink about that one.
4, Civil unrest - already happening in Chicago and New York.? I don't know if there ae any riots yet but it is still early.
?
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Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
?
?
1.? What is a fascist?
I actually intended to aak what is fascism - but also where it started
?
?
An adherent of facism? I am not sure of the implied question, but my knee-jerk is that the term popularly refers?to anyone supporting a dictator.
?
often?Fascism?:?a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the?) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized??government headed by a??leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition?--
2.? Should a new president be allowed to hire private entities to vet his appointees?
?
I am not sure because there are so many unstated supporting?details,?such as the question of who is paying. I would guess that there would be a whole bevy of civil?rights concerns to consider, not to mention the possibility of abuse via using paid special interests to approve public officials. Offhand, I would say no without hearing a good and comprehensive case in favor.
3.? Were you surprised by the apparent outcome of the presidential election?- remembering that the actual election doesn't occur?until the electoral college votes?
?
Not really. I felt?it could go either way, but I was little surprised by size of the gap favoring the Republicans.
4.? What is the strangest rumor you have heard this election season?
?
Really? How does one rate these? Government conspiracies?abound.
?
The strangest lack I noticed was that there could be such a surge in?UFO attention and so much effort and money suddenly spent on?space-related projects without a major response from the rumor mill. To be smack in the middle?of Covid, large-scale?weather extremes and global social/national unrest and yet still be applying major resources to reaching Mars seems a little odd to me. It is quite obvious Elon is extraterrestrial and our political leaders are paid alien agents.
5.? Do you expect major unrest after the election?
?
I expect there will be more to come, but likely different?in progression?and presentation from the Covid-era riot...er, demonstrating. I expect that ongoing warfare, civil issues and economic pressures, coupled with the increasing intensity of natural disruptions, will gradually increase social distress until sporadic unrest and violence leads to increasing social efforts to exert control. Which may evolve into?a self-perpetuating cycle. People?who are hungry, unhoused, ill and hopeless have little to lose.
?
?
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Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
1.? What is a fascist?
An adherent of facism? I am not sure of the implied question, but my knee-jerk is that the term popularly refers?to anyone supporting a dictator.
often?Fascism?:?a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the?) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized??government headed by a??leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition?--
2.? Should a new president be allowed to hire private entities to vet his appointees?
I am not sure because there are so many unstated supporting?details,?such as the question of who is paying. I would guess that there would be a whole bevy of civil?rights concerns to consider, not to mention the possibility of abuse via using paid special interests to approve public officials. Offhand, I would say no without hearing a good and comprehensive case in favor.
3.? Were you surprised by the apparent outcome of the presidential election?- remembering that the actual election doesn't occur?until the electoral college votes?
Not really. I felt?it could go either way, but I was little surprised by size of the gap favoring the Republicans.
4.? What is the strangest rumor you have heard this election season?
Really? How does one rate these? Government conspiracies?abound.
The strangest lack I noticed was that there could be such a surge in?UFO attention and so much effort and money suddenly spent on?space-related projects without a major response from the rumor mill. To be smack in the middle?of Covid, large-scale?weather extremes and global social/national unrest and yet still be applying major resources to reaching Mars seems a little odd to me. It is quite obvious Elon is extraterrestrial and our political leaders are paid alien agents.
5.? Do you expect major unrest after the election?
I expect there will be more to come, but likely different?in progression?and presentation from the Covid-era riot...er, demonstrating. I expect that ongoing warfare, civil issues and economic pressures, coupled with the increasing intensity of natural disruptions, will gradually increase social distress until sporadic unrest and violence leads to increasing social efforts to exert control. Which may evolve into?a self-perpetuating cycle. People?who are hungry, unhoused, ill and hopeless have little to lose.
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Re: Friday Five Novbember 8
?
?
?
?
1.? What is a fascist?
2.? Should a new president be allowed to hire private entities to vet his appointees?
3.? Were you surprised by the apparent outcome of the presidential election?- remembering that the actual election doesn't occur?until the electoral college votes?
4.? What is the strangest rumor you have heard this election season?
5.? Do you expect major unrest after the election?
?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. I don't usually answer the questions, but sometimes I get hooked by the replies :) So, here go mine:
1.? Who was the most impressive woman of the 20th century?
Impressive? I don't know. I like Curie as a double nobel on a men's world, but she wasn't the only one. I might propose Sister Theresa but on the extent of her hipocresy.? 2.? Is Harris's offer of forgievablle $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians?
No, it seems to be populist policy.? 3.? Does a candidate's height effect voting patterns?
Yes. If too high/low it makes them outstand from other candidates. As much as a pretty/ugly face, nice/ugly voice or any other physical characteristic. I might add that being tall/medium/short might influence on the candidates personality, but it would be interesting to read a study about it. 4.? What percentage of votes cast for president this election will be gainst someone rather than for someone?
I guess the question is oriented to Usian politics, and I think that's not the usual voting argument. In Argentina, on the contrary, it is very much used, both by polititians and by voters. It's awful. Mostrar mensaje original
El s¨¢bado, 26 de octubre de 2024, 01:36:59 p.?m. ART, a1thighmaster <thighmaster@...> escribi¨®:
1.? Who
was the most impressive woman of the 20th century?
I like Angela Merkel for this honor.
2.? Is
Harris's offer of forgievablle $20,000 loans to black
men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians?
No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a
chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and
discrimination eras.
3.? Does
a candidate's height effect voting patterns?
Unlikely.
4.? What
percentage of votes cast for president this election
will be gainst someone rather than for someone?
I have no idea. Nor does it really matter.
5? ?Do
think we will have a elected president by Deccember 1?
Certainly.
Aloha,
Celeste Rogers
|
Re: Friday Five Octgber 18
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
------ Original Message ------
From: darrellgking@...
To: pat_trivers@... Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; m-scholars-and-scribes@...; m-positive@...
Sent: Thursday, October 31st 2024, 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [M-Positive} Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five Octgber 18
? Pat said: " The earth ways nothing, obviously. It is floating in space, where everyone knows that everything is weightless. Duh.? "
?
To which Darrell replied: LOL! Awesome, Pat!
?
?
.
1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?
? Neither. It is because she is a nasty, unpleasant, unlikeable person. She was a complete failure as VP, ?has no record of accomplishments or achievements, has a reputation for using sexual favours to get appointments, then handling them badly through laziness and incompetence. She is clearly unqualified and unfit to be President. She is in fact the female version of Justin Trudeau. If anyone is actually considering voting for this horrible woman and her unspeakably vile sidekick, take a good hard look first at what has happened to Canada under the crushing heel of Justin Trudeau's woke jackboots. He is the most detested Prime Minister in Canadian history. Even the youth have turned against him, since he has ruined their lives. His is a government of corruption, authoritarian tyranny, censorship, trampling of human rights (sometimes with horses); massive debt, massive inflation, housing shortages and unaffordable housing; open borders, excessive immigration that has over-run medical services, housing, and jobs; arrogance, complete disregard for what Canadians want, endless scandals and ethics violations. Taxpayers money is tossed out like confetti, with most of it going to unacceptable foreign groups like UNRWA or into Liberal insiders' pockets. Most Canadians are just waiting for an election, heads down and trying to survive until Trudeau and his Liberal government are gone. If you want that in the USA, go ?ahead and vote for Harris. ? ? 2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war? ? Not obviously so far, but hundreds of Hamas terrorists are surrendering so maybe it has had an effect on their morale and motivation. Plus the symbolism is great ?- he died like a cornered rat, killed by the most junior soldier. Just what he deserved. ? 3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions. ? The earth ways nothing, obviously. It is floating in space, where everyone knows that everything is weightless. Duh. ? 4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week? ? Joe Biden calling all Trump supporters - more than half of all Americans - garbage was right up there. Donald Trump's response was perfect.
5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared? ? Pass ? Pat
?
------ Original Message -------?
From: chapman@...
To: philosophicalm+[email protected]; [email protected]; m-scholars-and-scribes@...
Sent: Friday, October 18th 2024, 06:12 AM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five Octgber 18
?
?
1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?
2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war?
3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions.
4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week?'
5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared?
?
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|
33 Reasons to Vote for Trump
. This is a little long, but excellent. ? 33 Reasons to Vote for Trump - Bill Ackman ? ?Triggernometry? ? Enjoy! Pat
|
Re: Friday Five November 1
Sorry about your hip, Celeste. I hope the new one works ten times better than the old!
I applaud your contributions?to nurturing intelligence in your community. I feel that if humanity (and we alien species) have a chance to unjumble to global insane chaos, it will be because leaders applied objective, mindful intelligence to the problem-solving with limited regard for personal?short-term gratification (the consumer?culture.)
On Sat, Nov 2, 2024 at 9:11?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
1.? Is
there any cause you would dedicate your life too?
I guess you could say I've done that with Mensa Hawai¡®i. I started
out in 1984 by becoming the newsletter editor and that has continued
to the present. However, now I am also in my second term as group
LocSec (President). I've also held every other office on the
Executive Committee. I also host some events every month.
2.? Are
you concerned about North Korea sending troops to assist
Russia in it's battle with Ukraine?
Somewhat. I don't think those troops will be able to do much. They
are not in good shape and they haven't had much training.
3.? Do
you think Biden's comment about garbage will have any effect
on the election?
Not really. He's not the one running for office.
4.? Are
you concerned about illegal voting this week?
Only from Republicans
5.? What
are your plans for the holiday season?
I have no big plans. I've been recovering from hip replacement
surgery and haven't had time to think about it. And I'm already in a
beautiful location.
Aloha,
Celeste Rogers
|
Re: Friday Five November 1
1.? Is
there any cause you would dedicate your life too?
I guess you could say I've done that with Mensa Hawai¡®i. I started
out in 1984 by becoming the newsletter editor and that has continued
to the present. However, now I am also in my second term as group
LocSec (President). I've also held every other office on the
Executive Committee. I also host some events every month.
2.? Are
you concerned about North Korea sending troops to assist
Russia in it's battle with Ukraine?
Somewhat. I don't think those troops will be able to do much. They
are not in good shape and they haven't had much training.
3.? Do
you think Biden's comment about garbage will have any effect
on the election?
Not really. He's not the one running for office.
4.? Are
you concerned about illegal voting this week?
Only from Republicans
5.? What
are your plans for the holiday season?
I have no big plans. I've been recovering from hip replacement
surgery and haven't had time to think about it. And I'm already in a
beautiful location.
Aloha,
Celeste Rogers
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
If the spokespeople for the truth say it, we must trust that it means something important. ?To them. ?Om.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 1, 2024, at 18:34, Darrell King <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:
? I wish they would share such.
Quantum entanglement got a boost recently with yet another experiment that confirmed the effect. This provides more evidence that all the world is a single energy field and all men and women merely parts of it.?
All this hoopla of Me and You and suchlike. Pffft.
D
On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 3:05?PM David Smith via <david.smith.mpowered= [email protected]> wrote:
Life is a mystery.? We live in an age of nearly unquestioning belief that our revered alchemists - "scientists" - will provide answers to every question and correct solutions for all problems. I have often wondered?if the legends were rooted in the actions of psychopaths like an attempt by older, more experienced citizens to warn younger tribal members that they could face danger from those that they assume are socially supportive fellow citizens.
D
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
I wish they would share such.
Quantum entanglement got a boost recently with yet another experiment that confirmed the effect. This provides more evidence that all the world is a single energy field and all men and women merely parts of it.?
All this hoopla of Me and You and suchlike. Pffft.
D
On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 3:05?PM David Smith via <david.smith.mpowered= [email protected]> wrote:
Life is a mystery.? We live in an age of nearly unquestioning belief that our revered alchemists - "scientists" - will provide answers to every question and correct solutions for all problems. I have often wondered?if the legends were rooted in the actions of psychopaths like an attempt by older, more experienced citizens to warn younger tribal members that they could face danger from those that they assume are socially supportive fellow citizens.
D
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Life is a mystery. ?We live in an age of nearly unquestioning belief that our revered alchemists - "scientists" - will provide answers to every question and correct solutions for all problems.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 1, 2024, at 10:45, Darrell King via groups.io <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:
I have often wondered?if the legends were rooted in the actions of psychopaths like an attempt by older, more experienced citizens to warn younger tribal members that they could face danger from those that they assume are socially supportive fellow citizens.
D
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Celeste revealed:?
Interestingly enough, when I was a kid I had long pointed canine teeth. When was about 12 years old the family dentist decided to file them all down without even asking me. I had gone for teeth cleaning so I guess the filing was included as part of that. I sort of wish I still had them, though.
And Darrell blinked: Huh. I ran into this article in my news feed a couple days ago that highlighted the recreation of the head of a lady buried as a vampire in Poland. Serendipity, given this?sidetrack!?
DOn Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 9:38?PM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Darrell,
Interestingly enough, when I was a kid I had long pointed canine
teeth. When was about 12 years old the family dentist decided to
file them all down without even asking me. I had gone for teeth
cleaning so I guess the filing was included as part of that. I
sort of wish I still had them, though.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/31/2024 6:19 AM, Darrell King
wrote:
Very cool,
Celeste! Your ancestral history shares a geographic
association with Dracula!?
(This is my level of
ancestral focus! You can see why I am never invited to
serious discussions on the subject!)
On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at
8:23?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa. I've
had genetic testing. I know where my ancestors are from.
Magyar history is pretty well known. I'm very close to
100% Magyar. No slaveholders and no associations with
Africa since the initial migration of humans from Africa.
On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
By that calculation, you'd have to
know the genetic composition of your 64
great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern
genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some
trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their
history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were
slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from
black slave traders in Africa.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
cgpt:
The
number of ancestors a living human can be said
to have increases exponentially as you go back
in time, but there are several complicating
factors that make an exact count impossible:
On Oct 30, 2024, at
11:30, Celeste wrote:
? David,
I know where all of them came from.
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith
wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the
identity of all of your ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024,
at 00:50, Celeste wrote:
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my
ancestors. Sorry to disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
So you are sure that
you understand slavery and
discrimination better than I do,
so you feel you have to tutor me
on the basics so that I'll agree
with you?
If my question makes no sense
to you there is an alternative
reason other than I'm not making
any sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever
over how someone else's
ancestors treated another
someone else's ancestors.? Guilt
does not transcend generations.
We don't inherit guilt or
obligation, nor do I expect
someone to pay me because their
ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that
reparations should be considered
on a societal level, ?then you
should believe reparations
should be considered on a
personal level. If you ran into
someone whose ancestor was owned
by one of your ancestors, how
much should you, as a
descendent, be willing to pay
that other person to alleviate
the damage that your
slave-owning ancestor did to
that other person?? Just give me
a rough figure- would $20,000
square things up?
On
Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM
Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how
the disadvantages of slavery
(destroying families) and a
couple of centuries of
segregation and
discrimination have put
black Americans at a
disadvantage. I guess you
skipped over that because
you don't want to
acknowledge that.
Your question about how big
a check I would write makes
no sense whatsoever. You
keep going back to feeling
guilty even though you don't
want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM,
Ed Lomas wrote:
The
former slaves are all long
gone.? Why should their
descendants deserve
compensation for the
suffering of their great
grandparents?? If it could
be proven that your ancestor
had owned a slave, would how
large a check would you
personally be willing to
write to that slave's
descendants?
On Sunday, October 27,
2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think
it's a bell that
can't be unrung. The
only people who were
ever enslaved and
actively segregated
were
African-Americans.
If they have
African-American
ancestry then that's
the group that would
be eligible to get
the subsidy. There
is no blame needed
for this to happen.
On 10/27/2024
9:15 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
How can
unfairness be
quantified, who is
to blame, and how
far back do we have
to go?? Slavery in
the USA ended five
generations ago.?
Second, how do you
handle mixed-race
people, especially
those who are
unaware that they
are of mixed race??
How about the Irish,
Jews, Italians, and
those who suffered
discrimination due
to their religious
or political
beliefs, like
Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about
handicapped
people, including
stutters, those
with autism, and
aspergers, and
what about those
with multiple
sources of
impairment?
Doesn't it seem
to you that this
is just a bell
that can't be
unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really
doesn't matter
if their
ancestors are
alive or not.
When you've
been
discriminated
against (as I
have, for
example) it is
fair to try to
make up for
that
unfairness.
Nobody (except
perhaps you)
is condemning
those who are
alive now as
being
responsible
for that
unfairness.
That doesn't
mean it didn't
happen and
shouldn't be
rectified,
though.
On
10/27/2024
5:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is
formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in
the mountain
cold at a
state park in
New Mexico. I
do not condemn
all campers
using the
campground nor
do I assess
whether?society
at large
should be
condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and
did what I
consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I
feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost
puppies!), and
I try to
respect those
around?me.
Even other
drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider
myself as
advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and
the strike of
being from
"the wrong
side of the
tracks." For
the most part,
I have earned
any positive
changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help
from others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I
expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by
the
descendants of
any who abused
my
ancestors--those
people
currently
breathing were
not part of
those
historical
stories. This
is an accepted
fact in a
culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with
today and do
not try to
atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted
for historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed
at such a
lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur
if I can and
approve of
society
stimulating
such resources
for the
benefit of
all. I simply
think we need
to be aware
that there is
(in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into
a manipulative
and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral
lever of
guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's
or 1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for
some
modern-day
effort, you
had better use
a more clearly
and rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity
with whatever
trials your
ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about
their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't
understand why
anyone would
be against
helping those
who have been
discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others.
Africans who
were brought
to America
suffered a lot
of loss and
then weren't
allowed to
even try to
make up for
it. I think
there were
plenty around
who would have
liked to
become
entrepreneurs.
On
10/26/2024
12:59 PM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Darrell,
I wish I did. I left home when I was 16 years old and didn't take
much with me.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/31/2024 6:40 PM, David Smith
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Got photos?
On Nov 1, 2024, at 00:38, Celeste wrote:
?
Darrell,
Interestingly enough, when I was a kid I had long pointed
canine teeth. When was about 12 years old the family dentist
decided to file them all down without even asking me. I had
gone for teeth cleaning so I guess the filing was included
as part of that. I sort of wish I still had them, though.
On 10/31/2024 6:19 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
Very
cool, Celeste! Your ancestral history shares a
geographic association with Dracula!?
(This is my
level of ancestral focus! You can see why I am
never invited to serious discussions on the
subject!)
On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at
8:23?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa.
I've had genetic testing. I know where my ancestors
are from. Magyar history is pretty well known. I'm
very close to 100% Magyar. No slaveholders and no
associations with Africa since the initial migration
of humans from Africa.
On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
By that calculation, you'd
have to know the genetic composition of your 64
great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern
genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had
some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to
know their history to tell whether any of them were
enslaved or were slave traders, since many African
slaves were bought from black slave traders in
Africa.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.?
Impossible.
cgpt:
The number of ancestors a
living human can be said to have
increases exponentially as you go back
in time, but there are several
complicating factors that make an exact
count impossible:
On Oct 30, 2024,
at 11:30, Celeste wrote:
? David,
I know where all of them came from.
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David
Smith wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the
identity of all of your ancestors.
On Oct 30,
2024, at 00:50, Celeste wrote:
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my
ancestors. Sorry to disappoint
you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed
Lomas wrote:
So you are sure
that you understand slavery
and discrimination better
than I do, so you feel you
have to tutor me on the
basics so that I'll agree
with you?
If my question makes no
sense to you there is an
alternative reason other
than I'm not making any
sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt
whatsoever over how
someone else's ancestors
treated another someone
else's ancestors.? Guilt
does not transcend
generations. We don't
inherit guilt or
obligation, nor do I
expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor
wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that
reparations should be
considered on a societal
level, ?then you should
believe reparations should
be considered on a
personal level. If you ran
into someone whose
ancestor was owned by one
of your ancestors, how
much should you, as a
descendent, be willing to
pay that other person to
alleviate the damage that
your slave-owning ancestor
did to that other person??
Just give me a rough
figure- would $20,000
square things up?
On Tue,
Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM
Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained
how the disadvantages
of slavery (destroying
families) and a couple
of centuries of
segregation and
discrimination have
put black Americans at
a disadvantage. I
guess you skipped over
that because you don't
want to acknowledge
that.
Your question about
how big a check I
would write makes no
sense whatsoever. You
keep going back to
feeling guilty even
though you don't want
to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09
PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are
all long gone.? Why
should their
descendants deserve
compensation for the
suffering of their
great grandparents??
If it could be proven
that your ancestor had
owned a slave, would
how large a check
would you personally
be willing to write to
that slave's
descendants?
On Sunday, October
27, 2024, Celeste
wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't
think it's a
bell that
can't be
unrung. The
only people
who were ever
enslaved and
actively
segregated
were
African-Americans.
If they have
African-American
ancestry then
that's the
group that
would be
eligible to
get the
subsidy. There
is no blame
needed for
this to
happen.
On
10/27/2024
9:15 AM, Ed
Lomas wrote:
How can
unfairness be
quantified,
who is to
blame, and how
far back do we
have to go??
Slavery in the
USA ended five
generations
ago.? Second,
how do you
handle
mixed-race
people,
especially
those who are
unaware that
they are of
mixed race??
How about the
Irish, Jews,
Italians, and
those who
suffered
discrimination
due to their
religious or
political
beliefs, like
Mormons,
Huguenots, and
Communists.
What
about
handicapped
people,
including
stutters,
those with
autism, and
aspergers, and
what about
those with
multiple
sources of
impairment?
Doesn't
it seem to you
that this is
just a bell
that can't be
unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really
doesn't matter
if their
ancestors are
alive or not.
When you've
been
discriminated
against (as I
have, for
example) it is
fair to try to
make up for
that
unfairness.
Nobody (except
perhaps you)
is condemning
those who are
alive now as
being
responsible
for that
unfairness.
That doesn't
mean it didn't
happen and
shouldn't be
rectified,
though.
On
10/27/2024
5:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is
formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in
the mountain
cold at a
state park in
New Mexico. I
do not condemn
all campers
using the
campground nor
do I assess
whether?society
at large
should be
condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and
did what I
consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I
feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost
puppies!), and
I try to
respect those
around?me.
Even other
drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider
myself as
advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and
the strike of
being from
"the wrong
side of the
tracks." For
the most part,
I have earned
any positive
changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help
from others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I
expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by
the
descendants of
any who abused
my
ancestors--those
people
currently
breathing were
not part of
those
historical
stories. This
is an accepted
fact in a
culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with
today and do
not try to
atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted
for historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed
at such a
lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur
if I can and
approve of
society
stimulating
such resources
for the
benefit of
all. I simply
think we need
to be aware
that there is
(in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into
a manipulative
and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral
lever of
guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's
or 1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for
some
modern-day
effort, you
had better use
a more clearly
and rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity
with whatever
trials your
ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about
their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't
understand why
anyone would
be against
helping those
who have been
discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others.
Africans who
were brought
to America
suffered a lot
of loss and
then weren't
allowed to
even try to
make up for
it. I think
there were
plenty around
who would have
liked to
become
entrepreneurs.
On
10/26/2024
12:59 PM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 1, 2024, at 00:38, a1thighmaster <thighmaster@...> wrote:
?
Darrell,
Interestingly enough, when I was a kid I had long pointed canine
teeth. When was about 12 years old the family dentist decided to
file them all down without even asking me. I had gone for teeth
cleaning so I guess the filing was included as part of that. I
sort of wish I still had them, though.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/31/2024 6:19 AM, Darrell King
wrote:
Very cool,
Celeste! Your ancestral history shares a geographic
association with Dracula!?
(This is my level of
ancestral focus! You can see why I am never invited to
serious discussions on the subject!)
On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at
8:23?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa. I've
had genetic testing. I know where my ancestors are from.
Magyar history is pretty well known. I'm very close to
100% Magyar. No slaveholders and no associations with
Africa since the initial migration of humans from Africa.
On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
By that calculation, you'd have to
know the genetic composition of your 64
great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern
genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some
trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their
history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were
slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from
black slave traders in Africa.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
cgpt:
The
number of ancestors a living human can be said
to have increases exponentially as you go back
in time, but there are several complicating
factors that make an exact count impossible:
On Oct 30, 2024, at
11:30, Celeste wrote:
? David,
I know where all of them came from.
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith
wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the
identity of all of your ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024,
at 00:50, Celeste wrote:
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my
ancestors. Sorry to disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
So you are sure that
you understand slavery and
discrimination better than I do,
so you feel you have to tutor me
on the basics so that I'll agree
with you?
If my question makes no sense
to you there is an alternative
reason other than I'm not making
any sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever
over how someone else's
ancestors treated another
someone else's ancestors.? Guilt
does not transcend generations.
We don't inherit guilt or
obligation, nor do I expect
someone to pay me because their
ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that
reparations should be considered
on a societal level, ?then you
should believe reparations
should be considered on a
personal level. If you ran into
someone whose ancestor was owned
by one of your ancestors, how
much should you, as a
descendent, be willing to pay
that other person to alleviate
the damage that your
slave-owning ancestor did to
that other person?? Just give me
a rough figure- would $20,000
square things up?
On
Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM
Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how
the disadvantages of slavery
(destroying families) and a
couple of centuries of
segregation and
discrimination have put
black Americans at a
disadvantage. I guess you
skipped over that because
you don't want to
acknowledge that.
Your question about how big
a check I would write makes
no sense whatsoever. You
keep going back to feeling
guilty even though you don't
want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM,
Ed Lomas wrote:
The
former slaves are all long
gone.? Why should their
descendants deserve
compensation for the
suffering of their great
grandparents?? If it could
be proven that your ancestor
had owned a slave, would how
large a check would you
personally be willing to
write to that slave's
descendants?
On Sunday, October 27,
2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think
it's a bell that
can't be unrung. The
only people who were
ever enslaved and
actively segregated
were
African-Americans.
If they have
African-American
ancestry then that's
the group that would
be eligible to get
the subsidy. There
is no blame needed
for this to happen.
On 10/27/2024
9:15 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
How can
unfairness be
quantified, who is
to blame, and how
far back do we have
to go?? Slavery in
the USA ended five
generations ago.?
Second, how do you
handle mixed-race
people, especially
those who are
unaware that they
are of mixed race??
How about the Irish,
Jews, Italians, and
those who suffered
discrimination due
to their religious
or political
beliefs, like
Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about
handicapped
people, including
stutters, those
with autism, and
aspergers, and
what about those
with multiple
sources of
impairment?
Doesn't it seem
to you that this
is just a bell
that can't be
unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really
doesn't matter
if their
ancestors are
alive or not.
When you've
been
discriminated
against (as I
have, for
example) it is
fair to try to
make up for
that
unfairness.
Nobody (except
perhaps you)
is condemning
those who are
alive now as
being
responsible
for that
unfairness.
That doesn't
mean it didn't
happen and
shouldn't be
rectified,
though.
On
10/27/2024
5:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is
formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in
the mountain
cold at a
state park in
New Mexico. I
do not condemn
all campers
using the
campground nor
do I assess
whether?society
at large
should be
condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and
did what I
consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I
feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost
puppies!), and
I try to
respect those
around?me.
Even other
drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider
myself as
advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and
the strike of
being from
"the wrong
side of the
tracks." For
the most part,
I have earned
any positive
changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help
from others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I
expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by
the
descendants of
any who abused
my
ancestors--those
people
currently
breathing were
not part of
those
historical
stories. This
is an accepted
fact in a
culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with
today and do
not try to
atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted
for historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed
at such a
lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur
if I can and
approve of
society
stimulating
such resources
for the
benefit of
all. I simply
think we need
to be aware
that there is
(in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into
a manipulative
and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral
lever of
guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's
or 1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for
some
modern-day
effort, you
had better use
a more clearly
and rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity
with whatever
trials your
ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about
their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't
understand why
anyone would
be against
helping those
who have been
discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others.
Africans who
were brought
to America
suffered a lot
of loss and
then weren't
allowed to
even try to
make up for
it. I think
there were
plenty around
who would have
liked to
become
entrepreneurs.
On
10/26/2024
12:59 PM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
David Smith
David Smith