------ Original Message ------
From: darrellgking@...
To: pat_trivers@... Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; m-scholars-and-scribes@...; m-positive@...
Sent: Thursday, October 31st 2024, 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [M-Positive} Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five Octgber 18
?

Pat said: " The earth ways nothing, obviously. It is floating in space, where everyone knows that everything is weightless. Duh.? "

?

To which Darrell replied: LOL! Awesome, Pat!

?

D
?

Darrell G King, MA, RN
Rochester, NY, US
DarrellGKing@...


?

?

?

On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 11:48?PM Pat Trivers <pat_trivers@...> wrote:
?

.

1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?

?

Neither. It is because she is a nasty, unpleasant, unlikeable person. She was a complete failure as VP, ?has no record of accomplishments or achievements, has a reputation for using sexual favours to get appointments, then handling them badly through laziness and incompetence. She is clearly unqualified and unfit to be President. She is in fact the female version of Justin Trudeau. If anyone is actually considering voting for this horrible woman and her unspeakably vile sidekick, take a good hard look first at what has happened to Canada under the crushing heel of Justin Trudeau's woke jackboots. He is the most detested Prime Minister in Canadian history. Even the youth have turned against him, since he has ruined their lives. His is a government of corruption, authoritarian tyranny, censorship, trampling of human rights (sometimes with horses); massive debt, massive inflation, housing shortages and unaffordable housing; open borders, excessive immigration that has over-run medical services, housing, and jobs; arrogance, complete disregard for what Canadians want, endless scandals and ethics violations. Taxpayers money is tossed out like confetti, with most of it going to unacceptable foreign groups like UNRWA or into Liberal insiders' pockets. Most Canadians are just waiting for an election, heads down and trying to survive until Trudeau and his Liberal government are gone. If you want that in the USA, go ?ahead and vote for Harris.

?

?

2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war?

?

Not obviously so far, but hundreds of Hamas terrorists are surrendering so maybe it has had an effect on their morale and motivation. Plus the symbolism is great ?- he died like a cornered rat, killed by the most junior soldier. Just what he deserved.

?

3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions.

?

The earth ways nothing, obviously. It is floating in space, where everyone knows that everything is weightless. Duh.

?

4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week?

?

Joe Biden calling all Trump supporters - more than half of all Americans - garbage was right up there. Donald Trump's response was perfect.

5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared?

?

Pass

?

Pat

?

------ Original Message -------?
From: chapman@...
To: philosophicalm+[email protected]; [email protected]; m-scholars-and-scribes@...
Sent: Friday, October 18th 2024, 06:12 AM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five Octgber 18
?

?

1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?

2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war?

3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions.

4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week?'

5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared?
?

?

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On Nov 1, 2024, at 18:34, Darrell King <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:

?

I wish they would share such.

Quantum entanglement got a boost recently with yet another experiment that confirmed the effect. This provides more evidence that all the world is a single energy field and all men and women merely parts of it.?

All this hoopla of Me and You and suchlike. Pffft.

D

On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 3:05?PM David Smith via <david.smith.mpowered=[email protected]> wrote:

Life is a mystery.? We live in an age of nearly unquestioning belief that our revered alchemists - "scientists" - will provide answers to every question and correct solutions for all problems.

On Nov 1, 2024, at 10:45, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

I have often wondered?if the legends were rooted in the actions of psychopaths like an attempt by older, more experienced citizens to warn younger tribal members that they could face danger from those that they assume are socially supportive fellow citizens.

D

On Nov 1, 2024, at 10:45, Darrell King via groups.io <DarrellGKing@...> wrote:

I have often wondered?if the legends were rooted in the actions of psychopaths like an attempt by older, more experienced citizens to warn younger tribal members that they could face danger from those that they assume are socially supportive fellow citizens.

D

Got photos?

On Nov 1, 2024, at 00:38, Celeste wrote:

? Darrell,

Interestingly enough, when I was a kid I had long pointed canine teeth. When was about 12 years old the family dentist decided to file them all down without even asking me. I had gone for teeth cleaning so I guess the filing was included as part of that. I sort of wish I still had them, though.

On 10/31/2024 6:19 AM, Darrell King wrote:

Very cool, Celeste! Your ancestral history shares a geographic association with Dracula!?

(This is my level of ancestral focus! You can see why I am never invited to serious discussions on the subject!)

On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 8:23?AM Celeste wrote:

Ed,

My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa. I've had genetic testing. I know where my ancestors are from. Magyar history is pretty well known. I'm very close to 100% Magyar. No slaveholders and no associations with Africa since the initial migration of humans from Africa.

On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in Africa.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:

With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.

cgpt:

The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:

On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, Celeste wrote:

? David,

I know where all of them came from.

On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith wrote:

Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your ancestors.

On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste wrote:

? Ed,

Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint you.

On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

So you are sure that you understand slavery and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?

If my question makes no sense to you there is an alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense to anyone.?

I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.

If you believe that reparations should be considered on a societal level, ?then you should believe reparations should be considered on a personal level. If you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000 square things up?

On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:

Ed,

I've already explained how the disadvantages of slavery (destroying families) and a couple of centuries of segregation and discrimination have put black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that because you don't want to acknowledge that.

Your question about how big a check I would write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit it.

On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:

The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?

On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:

Ed,

No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.

On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.

What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?

Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.

On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?

Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)

I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?

I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.

I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.

With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!

Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.

On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:

I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.

I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.

Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!

D

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.

On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??

Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.

I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.

Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?

Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."

On Nov 1, 2024, at 00:38, a1thighmaster <thighmaster@...> wrote:

? Darrell,

Interestingly enough, when I was a kid I had long pointed canine teeth. When was about 12 years old the family dentist decided to file them all down without even asking me. I had gone for teeth cleaning so I guess the filing was included as part of that. I sort of wish I still had them, though.

Aloha,
Celeste

On 10/31/2024 6:19 AM, Darrell King wrote:

Very cool, Celeste! Your ancestral history shares a geographic association with Dracula!?

(This is my level of ancestral focus! You can see why I am never invited to serious discussions on the subject!)

On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 8:23?AM Celeste wrote:

Ed,

My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa. I've had genetic testing. I know where my ancestors are from. Magyar history is pretty well known. I'm very close to 100% Magyar. No slaveholders and no associations with Africa since the initial migration of humans from Africa.

On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in Africa.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:

With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.

cgpt:

The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:

On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, Celeste wrote:

? David,

I know where all of them came from.

On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith wrote:

Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your ancestors.

On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste wrote:

? Ed,

Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint you.

On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

So you are sure that you understand slavery and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?

If my question makes no sense to you there is an alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense to anyone.?

I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.

If you believe that reparations should be considered on a societal level, ?then you should believe reparations should be considered on a personal level. If you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000 square things up?

On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:

Ed,

I've already explained how the disadvantages of slavery (destroying families) and a couple of centuries of segregation and discrimination have put black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that because you don't want to acknowledge that.

Your question about how big a check I would write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit it.

On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:

The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?

On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:

Ed,

No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.

On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.

What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?

Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.

On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?

Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)

I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?

I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.

I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.

With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!

Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.

On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:

I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.

I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.

Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!

D

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.

On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??

Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.

I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.

Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?

Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."

Very cool, Celeste! Your ancestral history shares a geographic association with Dracula!?

(This is my level of ancestral focus! You can see why I am never invited to serious discussions on the subject!)

On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 8:23?AM Celeste wrote:

Ed,

My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa. I've had genetic testing. I know where my ancestors are from. Magyar history is pretty well known. I'm very close to 100% Magyar. No slaveholders and no associations with Africa since the initial migration of humans from Africa.

On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in Africa.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:

With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.

cgpt:

The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:

On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, Celeste wrote:

? David,

I know where all of them came from.

On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith wrote:

Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your ancestors.

On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste wrote:

? Ed,

Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint you.

On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

So you are sure that you understand slavery and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?

If my question makes no sense to you there is an alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense to anyone.?

I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.

If you believe that reparations should be considered on a societal level, ?then you should believe reparations should be considered on a personal level. If you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000 square things up?

On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:

Ed,

I've already explained how the disadvantages of slavery (destroying families) and a couple of centuries of segregation and discrimination have put black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that because you don't want to acknowledge that.

Your question about how big a check I would write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit it.

On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:

The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?

On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:

Ed,

No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.

On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.

What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?

Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.

On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?

Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)

I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?

I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.

I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.

With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!

Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.

On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:

I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.

I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.

Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!

D

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.

On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??

Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.

I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.

Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?

Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."

?

Arabs are not semitic - they are tribesmen from the Arabian Peninsula.

Semites are traditionally from the Fertile Crescent and areas to the west, not the desert.

Marvin
:

Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't. ?

On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, mrvnchpmn via <chapman=[email protected]> wrote:

?
Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.

And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.

If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.

Marvin


?

?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste

?

So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well??

?

Ed

?

On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster=[email protected]> wrote:

Ed,

Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.

Aloha,
Celeste

?

On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history.

Ed

On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote:

Marvin,

There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?

?

On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:

?
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.

As well as slaves held by indigenous people.


Celeste wrote:

David,

They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?

?

On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote:

// ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?//

?

ChatGPT:

?

Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here’s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent:

?

On Oct 27, 2024, at 18:09, Ed Lomas <relomas2@...> wrote:
?

?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?

Ed

On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:

Ed,

No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.

?

On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.

What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?

?

Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.

?

On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?

?

Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)

?

I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?

?

I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.

?

I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.

?

With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!

?

Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
?

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.

?

On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:

I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.

?

I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.

Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!

?

D

?

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
?

On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??

?

Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.

?

I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.

?

Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?

?

Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."

?

?

?

?

?

?

By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in Africa.

?

On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith via <david.smith.mpowered=[email protected]> wrote:

?

With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.

?

cgpt:

?

The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:

?

1. Exponential Growth in Ancestors: Every person has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on. Mathematically, the number of ancestors doubles with each generation. In theory, after n generations, you would have 2^n ancestors. For example:

? 2 parents (1st generation)

? 4 grandparents (2nd generation)

? 8 great-grandparents (3rd generation)

? and so forth.

2. Overlapping or “Collapsing” Pedigree: At some point, due to population sizes and historical trends (like endogamy or small, isolated populations), the number of theoretical ancestors exceeds the total human population of a given time period. This means many of your ancestors are repeated in your family tree. In other words, you share common ancestors with yourself many times over. This phenomenon, called “pedigree collapse,” results from ancestors marrying distant relatives.

3. Population Bottlenecks: Events like pandemics, migrations, or other factors reduce the number of people in a population, limiting the pool of ancestors at certain points in history.

4. Finite Human History: Homo sapiens as a species is estimated to have emerged around 300,000 years ago. While humans had many generations, the total population size was much smaller for most of human history, especially prior to the advent of agriculture around 10,000 years ago.

?

A Simplified Example

?

If we consider 25 years as an average generational span:

?

? 10 generations back (250 years ago) would give you 1,024 ancestors.

? 20 generations back (500 years ago) would theoretically give 1,048,576 ancestors.

? However, 30 generations back (~750 years) would give over 1 billion theoretical ancestors, which exceeds the global population at that time, indicating heavy pedigree collapse.

?

In summary, while each individual technically has an exponentially increasing number of ancestors going back in time, overlapping pedigrees mean that the actual number of distinct ancestors is far smaller than what pure mathematics would suggest, especially for more distant generations.

?

?

On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, a1thighmaster via <thighmaster=[email protected]> wrote:
?

? David,

I know where all of them came from.

Aloha,
Celeste

?

On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith via wrote:

?

Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your ancestors.

?

?

On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste wrote:
?

? Ed,

Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint you.

?

On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

So you are sure that you understand slavery and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?

?

If my question makes no sense to you there is an alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense to anyone.?

?

I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.

?

If you believe that reparations should be considered on a societal level, ?then you should believe reparations should be considered on a personal level. If you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000 square things up?

?

On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:

Ed,

I've already explained how the disadvantages of slavery (destroying families) and a couple of centuries of segregation and discrimination have put black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that because you don't want to acknowledge that.

Your question about how big a check I would write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit it.

?

On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:

The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?

On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:

Ed,

No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.

?

On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:

How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.

What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?

?

Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.

?

On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?

?

Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)

?

I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?

?

I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.

?

I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.

?

With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!

?

Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
?

Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.

?

On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:

I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.

?

I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.

Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!

?

D

?

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:

Darrell,

Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
?

On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:

And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??

?

Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.

?

I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.

?

Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?

?

Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."

?

?

?

?