Hi, all. Just to mention, 75k U$S is about twice the value of my appartment. In Argentina, there are public and private universities. Practically none include educational materiales (such as books, computers etc.) for students, much less living quarters. Most private monthly fees are between 100 U$S and maybe 1k U$S, being about 4 minimal wages (not that anyone can live with that minimum per month). You might think that means that universities, being so cheap, would be full of foreingers (not usians, but maybe from other parts of LatinAmerica), but not really. There is a huge discussion here about this topic. Believe there should be public univ, but not so sure if it should be open for all, or have some sort of admittance test.

Slds

Anabel

El domingo, 12 de mayo de 2024, 02:39:10 ART, Ed Lomas <relomas2@...> escribió:

Just a couple of comments:

Not all colleges are land-grant institutions, but if there is a Morrill Hall anywhere on campus, it is generally a land-grant school.? Some may surprise you, like MIT and Cornell (it’s only partially private, the Ag school is a public backdoor into the Ivy League).? Small states with little public land have land-grant schools, but the land didn’t provide much funding.? University of Texas is rich because some of their school sections had oil on them.

As for worthless degrees, the ones I think of are in crappy online or correspondence schools with low standards.? However, some programs prepare students for low-paying careers. Also some low-paying careers are gratifying and beneficial to society, such as ministers or priests. ?

A lot of my college dorm-mates were relatively poor but studied things like communications, and ended up with jobs like selling cars.? As an engineering student, I had problem sets due every day that took a couple of hours, as well as a bunch of other work, while those with mickey mouse majors goofed off, watched tv, played cards, went to the bars, etc.

A friend’s daughter went to an expensive small private college in Idaho, majored in International Relations, and ended up as an apartment manager.? I know two miners who had degrees in elementary education, and one was $60,000 in debt and struggled to pay it off with three kids, a wife, and a well-paying job as a miner.? On the other hand, one of them has a brother in law who is also a miner but didn’t go to college, and he is sidelined with a medical issue that will keep him from going back to his $140,000/year mining job.? So it’s a tough call, but my parents looked at college as a path to job security, while others look at college as a way to live an educated life.? As much as college costs, it seems prudent to do both at once, even if it means taking some tough classes that aren’t that interesing.


On Sunday, May 12, 2024, FreedomRocks via <HomeOfLove69=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

<<The Morrill Act, a bill signed by Abraham Lincoln, dedicated two square miles of every public land township for funding higher education in public universities.? I attended a “land grant” college in the 70s, and it was tuition-free. ? We all had to pay for room and board and supplies and incidentals, ?which was about $1000 per semester.? That was a great system; I could earn $2000 working in the mine during the summer and a few weekends for $3.57 an hour then.>>

Interesting, I hadn’t heard of that history before. I find this an interesting discussion.

?

<<After the 70s the system fell apart; the university I attended, and other land grant colleges, now charge tuition to fund bloated administrations and football coaches, and students must take on debt to go to colleges.? Students majoring in communications, drama, political science and other easy majors never earn enough to join the middle class, and many of them spend five or six years to get their worthless degrees. >>

Well….I kinda agree you. A big problem is, as Marvin mentioned, students graduate high school, but they aren’t ready for college. More than that, they really don’t know basic high school skills. A college degree, even in a “worthless” subject, does tell an employer that the applicant does have basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills. It also tells the employer that the student can complete tasks and meet deadlines. Because of problems with the high school system, a bachelor’s is preferred by employers, even when a college degree isn’t necessary for the job, because it does actually testify to the student haven’t basic skills. So these degrees do have some worth. But there is no doubt that many students are drastically overpaying for these degrees.

A little personal story, which I’ve told to my child, so I think it’s OK to share here. Way back in the early 2000’s, when I only had 1, maybe 2 children and they were babies, I can remember arguing on a message board that I would never pay for my children to get such a worthless degree such as the ones you mentioned. Previous to that, every time I had ever said I would never do something…I ended up doing it. I’ve learned since then to never say never.? Well, one of my children, who is Mensa, started school to get a special ed teacher’s degree—which involves 1.5 years of teacher observation/student teaching. She really would have been good at this, she is super patient, nothing grosses her out, very loving. Well, her Junior year, ?Covid hit spring of 2020 when she should have done her student observation, so instead they had her do zoom tutoring, which she was great at, but did not at all prepare her for a classroom situation. Then right before her senior year started, her cousin who was also entering his senior year at the same school unexpectedly killed himself. And even though she wasn’t particularly close to him, she took it very hard. Then she started her senior year student teaching in a Jr High situation with a classroom teacher who expected her to already know how to do everything. And she had a total breakdown, dropped out that semester.? She went back spring semester and finished enough classes to get a Bachelor’s in “interdisciplinary studies”…which is basically a major for people who couldn’t finish their intended major, but completed enough upper graduated classes to get a bachelor’s. And she graduated Cum Laude. And she is still working at the exact same job she worked at while going through college.

Did I pay for a worthless degree?

Well, I still have hope that eventually she will go back and finish the classes to get her teaching certificate. Or maybe do a BS to BSN program. Or maybe she won’t. It is what it is, at the moment she has no desire to do anything different, and ultimately, she will have to figure out what she does.
But I have changed my mind on “worthless” degrees. I don’t think any degree is worthless. But certainly, some degrees are not worth what people pay for them. Of my children, the 3 who have currently graduated or are attending college, they went to a local public university, and they all lived at home and commuted (with the exception of 1 child who spent a year on campus because his grandma paid for that and he wanted the experience, the following year he chose to live at home and commute.)? I was fortunate enough to have been able to finance a prepaid tuition program for all my children. And by living at home, they have graduated (or will graduate) with no debt. Let’s say I hadn’t been able to finance a prepaid tuition program, I would have encouraged them to do 2 years at a community college, then transfer to the state university, living at home, and their debt would have been quite reasonable, less than $50,000 (current tuition at their university is $15,000/year)

Considering that in my state, its an estimated $16,000/year for each K – 12 student, any bachelor’s my children get is cheaper, yet worth more in the job market, than their K-12 education. (Although all my children have been homeschooled….and I spent a lot compared to the average homeschooler, but still WAY less then the $16,000/year that would be spent at public school.)

Now in contrast, I went to a high school graduation party today for an extended family member. This family member is very smart and talented, her parents of fairly modest means (I suspect they will be contributing little to nothing to her education,) yet she is extremely excited about attending a $75,000/YEAR private university, because she obtained $50,000 in scholarships (which are for the first year only!) …..which still means $25,000/year of debt for her. She intends to become a doctor….good for her, but the reality is 60% of people who apply to medical school are never accepted, and if she is accepted that would just mean 4 more years of even larger debt.? While I can’t say that a degree from a $75,000/year university is “worthless”……I can say that I don’t think *ANY* undergraduate degree is worth that tuition. And hardly even any professional degree (the average public medical school tuition is $50,000/year, private medical school $65,000/year)

I think our current system of the government backing loans, even giving grants, for vastly overpriced private schools (and while private schools are generally pricier than public schools, some are way overpriced compared to others,) even when for a ready-to-work degree (accounting, teaching, etc.) is a far worse use of money than just out and out paying for a “worthless” degree (art, communications, etc.) at a public school.

<<now charge tuition to fund bloated administrations and football coaches,>>

The thing with football (which not being a football fanatic, I don’t emotionally understand,) many universities make A LOT of money off of their football team. There are certainly “luxuries” at some colleges which are just money out and by most estimates totally unnecessary. But football teams bring in real revenue, it’s not just frivolous spending.

?

Rhonda

?

?

<<A lot of my college dorm-mates were relatively poor but studied things like communications, and ended up with jobs like selling cars.? As an engineering student, I had problem sets due every day that took a couple of hours, as well as a bunch of other work, while those with mickey mouse majors goofed off, watched tv, played cards, went to the bars, etc.>>

I don’t disagree that what you describe happens too often. But innate ability plays a big role as well. There are many people who would be studying hard every day to get a mickey mouse major.? Then there are others, like myself, for my pharmacy degree, I had 4 years of chemistry, 3 years of biology, lots of other “hard” classes.” Many of many classmates would spend hours studying every day. I would day dream in class and wouldn’t even worry about the chapter we were on until the day before the quiz or test. Haha, I’m probably the one of the only people every who got an A in both semesters of Organic Chemistry, only to end up with a B 2^nd semester because I got an F in the labwork section (I didn’t have the patience to properly do experiments….if I’d been deluded enough to go for a PhD, I likely would have been the one spending hours trying to figure out what I was doing and repeating experiments.)

While one’s major, or their grades, is generally an indication of how much work and effort they’ve put into their college degree, it isn’t always.

Rhonda

<<The Morrill Act, a bill signed by Abraham Lincoln, dedicated two square miles of every public land township for funding higher education in public universities.? I attended a “land grant” college in the 70s, and it was tuition-free. ? We all had to pay for room and board and supplies and incidentals, ?which was about $1000 per semester.? That was a great system; I could earn $2000 working in the mine during the summer and a few weekends for $3.57 an hour then.>>

Interesting, I hadn’t heard of that history before. I find this an interesting discussion.

?

<<After the 70s the system fell apart; the university I attended, and other land grant colleges, now charge tuition to fund bloated administrations and football coaches, and students must take on debt to go to colleges.? Students majoring in communications, drama, political science and other easy majors never earn enough to join the middle class, and many of them spend five or six years to get their worthless degrees. >>

Well….I kinda agree you. A big problem is, as Marvin mentioned, students graduate high school, but they aren’t ready for college. More than that, they really don’t know basic high school skills. A college degree, even in a “worthless” subject, does tell an employer that the applicant does have basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills. It also tells the employer that the student can complete tasks and meet deadlines. Because of problems with the high school system, a bachelor’s is preferred by employers, even when a college degree isn’t necessary for the job, because it does actually testify to the student haven’t basic skills. So these degrees do have some worth. But there is no doubt that many students are drastically overpaying for these degrees.

A little personal story, which I’ve told to my child, so I think it’s OK to share here. Way back in the early 2000’s, when I only had 1, maybe 2 children and they were babies, I can remember arguing on a message board that I would never pay for my children to get such a worthless degree such as the ones you mentioned. Previous to that, every time I had ever said I would never do something…I ended up doing it. I’ve learned since then to never say never.? Well, one of my children, who is Mensa, started school to get a special ed teacher’s degree—which involves 1.5 years of teacher observation/student teaching. She really would have been good at this, she is super patient, nothing grosses her out, very loving. Well, her Junior year, ?Covid hit spring of 2020 when she should have done her student observation, so instead they had her do zoom tutoring, which she was great at, but did not at all prepare her for a classroom situation. Then right before her senior year started, her cousin who was also entering his senior year at the same school unexpectedly killed himself. And even though she wasn’t particularly close to him, she took it very hard. Then she started her senior year student teaching in a Jr High situation with a classroom teacher who expected her to already know how to do everything. And she had a total breakdown, dropped out that semester.? She went back spring semester and finished enough classes to get a Bachelor’s in “interdisciplinary studies”…which is basically a major for people who couldn’t finish their intended major, but completed enough upper graduated classes to get a bachelor’s. And she graduated Cum Laude. And she is still working at the exact same job she worked at while going through college.

Did I pay for a worthless degree?

Well, I still have hope that eventually she will go back and finish the classes to get her teaching certificate. Or maybe do a BS to BSN program. Or maybe she won’t. It is what it is, at the moment she has no desire to do anything different, and ultimately, she will have to figure out what she does.
But I have changed my mind on “worthless” degrees. I don’t think any degree is worthless. But certainly, some degrees are not worth what people pay for them. Of my children, the 3 who have currently graduated or are attending college, they went to a local public university, and they all lived at home and commuted (with the exception of 1 child who spent a year on campus because his grandma paid for that and he wanted the experience, the following year he chose to live at home and commute.)? I was fortunate enough to have been able to finance a prepaid tuition program for all my children. And by living at home, they have graduated (or will graduate) with no debt. Let’s say I hadn’t been able to finance a prepaid tuition program, I would have encouraged them to do 2 years at a community college, then transfer to the state university, living at home, and their debt would have been quite reasonable, less than $50,000 (current tuition at their university is $15,000/year)

Considering that in my state, its an estimated $16,000/year for each K – 12 student, any bachelor’s my children get is cheaper, yet worth more in the job market, than their K-12 education. (Although all my children have been homeschooled….and I spent a lot compared to the average homeschooler, but still WAY less then the $16,000/year that would be spent at public school.)

Now in contrast, I went to a high school graduation party today for an extended family member. This family member is very smart and talented, her parents of fairly modest means (I suspect they will be contributing little to nothing to her education,) yet she is extremely excited about attending a $75,000/YEAR private university, because she obtained $50,000 in scholarships (which are for the first year only!) …..which still means $25,000/year of debt for her. She intends to become a doctor….good for her, but the reality is 60% of people who apply to medical school are never accepted, and if she is accepted that would just mean 4 more years of even larger debt.? While I can’t say that a degree from a $75,000/year university is “worthless”……I can say that I don’t think *ANY* undergraduate degree is worth that tuition. And hardly even any professional degree (the average public medical school tuition is $50,000/year, private medical school $65,000/year)

I think our current system of the government backing loans, even giving grants, for vastly overpriced private schools (and while private schools are generally pricier than public schools, some are way overpriced compared to others,) even when for a ready-to-work degree (accounting, teaching, etc.) is a far worse use of money than just out and out paying for a “worthless” degree (art, communications, etc.) at a public school.

<<now charge tuition to fund bloated administrations and football coaches,>>

The thing with football (which not being a football fanatic, I don’t emotionally understand,) many universities make A LOT of money off of their football team. There are certainly “luxuries” at some colleges which are just money out and by most estimates totally unnecessary. But football teams bring in real revenue, it’s not just frivolous spending.

?

Rhonda

?

<<The Morrill Act, a bill signed by Abraham Lincoln, dedicated two square miles of every public land township for funding higher education in public universities.? I attended a “land grant” college in the 70s, and it was tuition-free. ? We all had to pay for room and board and supplies and incidentals, ?which was about $1000 per semester.? That was a great system; I could earn $2000 working in the mine during the summer and a few weekends for $3.57 an hour then.>>

Interesting, I hadn’t heard of that history before. I find this an interesting discussion.

?

<<After the 70s the system fell apart; the university I attended, and other land grant colleges, now charge tuition to fund bloated administrations and football coaches, and students must take on debt to go to colleges.? Students majoring in communications, drama, political science and other easy majors never earn enough to join the middle class, and many of them spend five or six years to get their worthless degrees. >>

Well….I kinda agree you. A big problem is, as Marvin mentioned, students graduate high school, but they aren’t ready for college. More than that, they really don’t know basic high school skills. A college degree, even in a “worthless” subject, does tell an employer that the applicant does have basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills. It also tells the employer that the student can complete tasks and meet deadlines. Because of problems with the high school system, a bachelor’s is preferred by employers, even when a college degree isn’t necessary for the job, because it does actually testify to the student haven’t basic skills. So these degrees do have some worth. But there is no doubt that many students are drastically overpaying for these degrees.

A little personal story, which I’ve told to my child, so I think it’s OK to share here. Way back in the early 2000’s, when I only had 1, maybe 2 children and they were babies, I can remember arguing on a message board that I would never pay for my children to get such a worthless degree such as the ones you mentioned. Previous to that, every time I had ever said I would never do something…I ended up doing it. I’ve learned since then to never say never.? Well, one of my children, who is Mensa, started school to get a special ed teacher’s degree—which involves 1.5 years of teacher observation/student teaching. She really would have been good at this, she is super patient, nothing grosses her out, very loving. Well, her Junior year, ?Covid hit spring of 2020 when she should have done her student observation, so instead they had her do zoom tutoring, which she was great at, but did not at all prepare her for a classroom situation. Then right before her senior year started, her cousin who was also entering his senior year at the same school unexpectedly killed himself. And even though she wasn’t particularly close to him, she took it very hard. Then she started her senior year student teaching in a Jr High situation with a classroom teacher who expected her to already know how to do everything. And she had a total breakdown, dropped out that semester.? She went back spring semester and finished enough classes to get a Bachelor’s in “interdisciplinary studies”…which is basically a major for people who couldn’t finish their intended major, but completed enough upper graduated classes to get a bachelor’s. And she graduated Cum Laude. And she is still working at the exact same job she worked at while going through college.

Did I pay for a worthless degree?

Well, I still have hope that eventually she will go back and finish the classes to get her teaching certificate. Or maybe do a BS to BSN program. Or maybe she won’t. It is what it is, at the moment she has no desire to do anything different, and ultimately, she will have to figure out what she does.
But I have changed my mind on “worthless” degrees. I don’t think any degree is worthless. But certainly, some degrees are not worth what people pay for them. Of my children, the 3 who have currently graduated or are attending college, they went to a local public university, and they all lived at home and commuted (with the exception of 1 child who spent a year on campus because his grandma paid for that and he wanted the experience, the following year he chose to live at home and commute.)? I was fortunate enough to have been able to finance a prepaid tuition program for all my children. And by living at home, they have graduated (or will graduate) with no debt. Let’s say I hadn’t been able to finance a prepaid tuition program, I would have encouraged them to do 2 years at a community college, then transfer to the state university, living at home, and their debt would have been quite reasonable, less than $50,000 (current tuition at their university is $15,000/year)

Considering that in my state, its an estimated $16,000/year for each K – 12 student, any bachelor’s my children get is cheaper, yet worth more in the job market, than their K-12 education. (Although all my children have been homeschooled….and I spent a lot compared to the average homeschooler, but still WAY less then the $16,000/year that would be spent at public school.)

Now in contrast, I went to a high school graduation party today for an extended family member. This family member is very smart and talented, her parents of fairly modest means (I suspect they will be contributing little to nothing to her education,) yet she is extremely excited about attending a $75,000/YEAR private university, because she obtained $50,000 in scholarships (which are for the first year only!) …..which still means $25,000/year of debt for her. She intends to become a doctor….good for her, but the reality is 60% of people who apply to medical school are never accepted, and if she is accepted that would just mean 4 more years of even larger debt.? While I can’t say that a degree from a $75,000/year university is “worthless”……I can say that I don’t think *ANY* undergraduate degree is worth that tuition. And hardly even any professional degree (the average public medical school tuition is $50,000/year, private medical school $65,000/year)

I think our current system of the government backing loans, even giving grants, for vastly overpriced private schools (and while private schools are generally pricier than public schools, some are way overpriced compared to others,) even when for a ready-to-work degree (accounting, teaching, etc.) is a far worse use of money than just out and out paying for a “worthless” degree (art, communications, etc.) at a public school.

<<now charge tuition to fund bloated administrations and football coaches,>>

The thing with football (which not being a football fanatic, I don’t emotionally understand,) many universities make A LOT of money off of their football team. There are certainly “luxuries” at some colleges which are just money out and by most estimates totally unnecessary. But football teams bring in real revenue, it’s not just frivolous spending.

?

Rhonda

?

?

I worked every year in college and graduated with less than $10,000 in debt.? The biggest problem I had was bad advising in Community College - I should have been in engineering from the beginning but had no advisors asking me about what I liked doing.

I survived and have been working in the field for forty five years now.

Marvin

Marvin,

I couldn't afford to limp. When I started college I was 16 and became an emancipated minor. I was able to get into the college's work-study program, though, and that was a real blessing. I worked in the college's computer lab (at minimum wage), so I had relevant work experience when I graduated. I never went back home to mom. The biggest hassle was learning to drive and then finding a car when I first started.

Aloha,
Celeste
?

On 5/11/2024 4:58 AM, Marvin wrote:

Ibn Europe students don't study worthless subjects - and if they don't do well their first year they are out.? No limping along - though I limped through seven years at UC Davis and finally succeeded.


Celeste wrote:

Why not? Public education should be free and there are a lot of public colleges and universities. This approach seems to work quite well in Europe. There's really no need to force the underprivileged to have to struggle while other students don't have to.


?

On 5/9/2024 6:19 PM, David Smith wrote:

Why?

?

Celeste wrote

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

Yes.

?

Ibn Europe students don't study worthless subjects - and if they don't do well their first year they are out.? No limping along - though I limped through seven years at UC Davis and finally succeeded.


Celeste wrote:

Why not? Public education should be free and there are a lot of public colleges and universities. This approach seems to work quite well in Europe. There's really no need to force the underprivileged to have to struggle while other students don't have to.


?

On 5/9/2024 6:19 PM, David Smith wrote:

Why?

?

Celeste wrote

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

Yes.

?

Ibn Europe students don't study worthless subjects - and if they don't do well their first year they are out.? No limping along - though I limped through seven years at UC Davis and finally succeeded.


Celeste wrote:

Why not? Public education should be free and there are a lot of public colleges and universities. This approach seems to work quite well in Europe. There's really no need to force the underprivileged to have to struggle while other students don't have to.


?

On 5/9/2024 6:19 PM, David Smith wrote:

Why?

?

Celeste wrote

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

Yes.

?

Why not? Public education should be free and there are a lot of public colleges and universities. This approach seems to work quite well in Europe. There's really no need to force the underprivileged to have to struggle while other students don't have to.

Aloha,
Celeste
?

On 5/9/2024 6:19 PM, David Smith wrote:

Why?

?

Celeste wrote

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

Yes.

?

?

?

Why?

?

Celeste wrote

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

Yes.

?

Why not? Public education should be free and there are a lot of public colleges and universities. This approach seems to work quite well in Europe. There's really no need to force the underprivileged to have to struggle while other students don't have to.

Aloha,
Celeste

On 5/9/2024 6:19 PM, David Smith wrote:

Why?

Celeste wrote

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

Yes.

Why?

Celeste wrote

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

Yes.

?


?

1.? Should student protesters who illegally occupy campus buildings be expelled from? their college?

Yes and their records should not be released until they have paid for the damage done.

2.? ?Should students on Education visas who engage in illegal activities on campus be deported?

Emphatically yes - and they should be permanently prohibited from getting any more visas of any type

3.? Should the government offer free college to all students?

No - and the government should get out of the business of loaning students money to go to college - let them earn the money necessary and force colleges to reduce tuition

4.? Is there any real chance that neither Biden nor Trump will win the presidential election?

Distinctly yes - if neither wins 270 electoral votes the election goes to the House of Representatives where the three candidates who won the most electoral votes are candidates.

5.? Are you concerned about world affairs in the near future?

Yes - but not as much as I was in 1962

?

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