Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history. Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there
were?
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
?
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white
slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why
do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David
Smith wrote:
// ??The
only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated
were African-Americans.?//
?
ChatGPT:
?
Human
slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human
history, practiced in different forms across
civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief
sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was
prominent:
?
?The former slaves are all long gone.?
Why should their descendants deserve compensation for
the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it
could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave,
would how large a check would you personally be
willing to write to that slave's descendants?
Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be
unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved
and actively segregated were
African-Americans. If they have
African-American ancestry then that's the
group that would be eligible to get the
subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to
happen.
?
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be
quantified, who is to blame, and how far back
do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended
five generations ago.? Second, how do you
handle mixed-race people, especially those who
are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How
about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who
suffered discrimination due to their religious
or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including
stutters, those with autism, and aspergers,
and what about those with multiple sources
of impairment?
?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just
a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their
ancestors are alive or not. When
you've been discriminated against (as
I have, for example) it is fair to try
to make up for that unfairness. Nobody
(except perhaps you) is condemning
those who are alive now as being
responsible for that unfairness. That
doesn't mean it didn't happen and
shouldn't be rectified, though.
?
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King
wrote:
I
can agree with that
statement, Celeste, as it
is formatted as verifiable
and objectively
present-moment. Your
reference to
"...discriminated against
and haven't had the same
advantages as others..."
would, in my mind, address
people alive now?who
are being treated in a
manner at odds with my
values.?
?
Not
only people...this past
week we rescued a small
dog shivering in the
mountain cold at a state
park in New Mexico. I do
not condemn all campers
using the campground nor
do I assess
whether?society at large
should be condemned?for
animal abuse since I do
not know if all members of
society were involved in
losing or abandoning the
pup. I simply rescued?the
critter?and did what I
consider proper (he is
safely with a protective
advocate now.)
?
I
am a Caucasian?middle
class male U.S. citizen. I
use the male pronouns I
was taught apply to me in
grade school English
classes. I feel protective
of women and children (and
lost puppies!), and I try
to respect those
around?me. Even other
drivers!? Despite all
this, I do not consider
myself as advantaged. I
grew up very poor in a
backwoods rural?community
with social anxiety,
bullying?and the strike of
being from "the wrong side
of the tracks." For the
most part, I have earned
any positive changes I
benefit from, although?I
acknowledge having help
from others (including
social breaks) whenever
such benefited me.?
?
I
did not get any free rides
due to my disadvantages,
nor do I expect to be
lifted up or reimbursed by
the descendants of any who
abused my ancestors--those
people currently breathing
were not part of those
historical stories. This
is an accepted fact in a
culture where time
travel?or common extreme
longevity are not likely
truths. Basically, I deal
with today and do not try
to atone?for the sins of
my ancestors.
?
I
agree that it is likely
that many citizens,
regardless of belonging to
groups noted for historic
mistreatment, have the
potential to become
successful entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it in software
despite?not initially
believing?I could succeed
at such a lofty ambition.
I am fine with supporting
an entrepreneur if I can
and approve of society
stimulating such resources
for the benefit of all. I
simply think we need to be
aware that there is (in my
judgement) an ongoing
effort to twist the story
of historic treatment into
a manipulative and
demonstrably logically
invalid behavioral lever
of guilt.
?
With
all respect, I never
mistreated anyone in the
1700's or 1800's and
therefore, if the
figurative and generic
'you' want my support for
some modern-day effort,
you had better use a more
clearly and rationally
expressed argument than
that of emphasizing my
nonexistent complicity
with whatever trials your
ancestors went through!
?
Thank
you for the sensible
discussion, Celeste!
?
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about
their mistreatment either. I
just don't understand why
anyone would be against
helping those who have been
discriminated against and
haven't had the same
advantages as others.
Africans who were brought to
America suffered a lot of
loss and then weren't
allowed to even try to make
up for it. I think there
were plenty around who would
have liked to become
entrepreneurs.
?
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM,
Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who were
mistreated in
the U.S. before
your parents
arrived,
Celeste. Therein
lies my quibble:
we have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment. I
was not and I
hope that even
if I had been
alive and adult
back in that
day, I would?not
have contributed
to mistreatment.
?
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share frequently
when able.
This?is not out
of any sense of
guilt or
responsibility?related
to the behaviors
of my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the subject.
I admit to
feeling a little
put out when
somebody insists
I owe?some
person or group
because some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some historical
behavior, such
as the treatment
uf North
American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I am
still not
personally
liable for those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them or
anyone. Just
means
that?rationally
I may deal with
the fallout
(karma?) from
history but I do
not feel guilty
about someone
else's actions!
?
D
?
On Sat, Oct
26, 2024 at 11:56?AM
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors weren't
even in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and I'm
still in favor of
helping peoples
who were
mistreated in the
U.S. before they
arrived. And, of
course, that
includes the
indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed in.
?
On 10/26/2024
7:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
?
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism
in any group
and so I am
wary of this
constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
?
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
?
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
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