"Ed,?I've already explained how the disadvantages of slavery (destroying families) and a couple of centuries of segregation and discrimination have put black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that because you don't want to acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit it."
(Celeste)
So you are sure that you understand slavery and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there is an alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be considered on a societal level, ?then you should believe reparations should be considered on a personal level. If you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000 square things up?
Ed
On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the disadvantages of slavery
(destroying families) and a couple of centuries of segregation and
discrimination have put black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess
you skipped over that because you don't want to acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would write makes no sense
whatsoever. You keep going back to feeling guilty even though you
don't want to admit it.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants
deserve compensation for the suffering of their great
grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned
a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing
to write to that slave's descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The
only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated
were African-Americans. If they have African-American
ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to
get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to
happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be quantified,
who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go??
Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second,
how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who
are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the
Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered
discrimination due to their religious or political
beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including stutters,
those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those
with multiple sources of impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that
can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are
alive or not. When you've been discriminated
against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try
to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except
perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now
as being responsible for that unfairness. That
doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be
rectified, though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
I can agree
with that statement, Celeste, as it is
formatted as verifiable and
objectively present-moment. Your
reference to "...discriminated against
and haven't had the same advantages as
others..." would, in my mind, address
people alive now?who are being
treated in a manner at odds with my
values.?
Not only
people...this past week we rescued a
small dog shivering in the mountain
cold at a state park in New Mexico. I
do not condemn all campers using the
campground nor do I assess
whether?society at large should be
condemned?for animal abuse since I do
not know if all members of society
were involved in losing or abandoning
the pup. I simply rescued?the
critter?and did what I consider proper
(he is safely with a protective
advocate now.)
I am
a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use the male pronouns I was
taught apply to me in grade school
English classes. I feel protective of
women and children (and lost
puppies!), and I try to respect those
around?me. Even other drivers!?
Despite all this, I do not consider
myself as advantaged. I grew up very
poor in a backwoods rural?community
with social anxiety, bullying?and the
strike of being from "the wrong side
of the tracks." For the most part, I
have earned any positive changes I
benefit from, although?I acknowledge
having help from others (including
social breaks) whenever such benefited
me.?
I
did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages, nor do I expect to be
lifted up or reimbursed by the
descendants of any who abused my
ancestors--those people currently
breathing were not part of those
historical stories. This is an
accepted fact in a culture where time
travel?or common extreme longevity are
not likely truths. Basically, I deal
with today and do not try to atone?for
the sins of my ancestors.
I
agree that it is likely that many
citizens, regardless of belonging to
groups noted for historic
mistreatment, have the potential to
become successful entrepreneurs. Hell,
I did it in software despite?not
initially believing?I could succeed at
such a lofty ambition. I am fine with
supporting an entrepreneur if I can
and approve of society stimulating
such resources for the benefit of all.
I simply think we need to be aware
that there is (in my judgement) an
ongoing effort to twist the story of
historic treatment into a manipulative
and demonstrably logically invalid
behavioral lever of guilt.
With
all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore,
if the figurative and generic 'you'
want my support for some modern-day
effort, you had better use a more
clearly and rationally expressed
argument than that of emphasizing my
nonexistent complicity with whatever
trials your ancestors went through!
Thank
you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their
mistreatment either. I just don't
understand why anyone would be against
helping those who have been
discriminated against and haven't had
the same advantages as others. Africans
who were brought to America suffered a
lot of loss and then weren't allowed to
even try to make up for it. I think
there were plenty around who would have
liked to become entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King
wrote:
I
believe you mean to say you
are in favor of helping the
descendants?of people
who were mistreated in the
U.S. before your parents
arrived, Celeste. Therein
lies my quibble: we have
been conditioned to ignore
this distinction as though I
was port?of that
mistreatment. I was not and
I hope that even if I had
been alive and adult back in
that day, I would?not have
contributed to mistreatment.
I
often help people on an
individual basis. I share
frequently when able.
This?is not out of any sense
of guilt or
responsibility?related to
the behaviors of my
social?or biological
ancestors, however, but
rather?originates on my
personal?values on the
subject. I admit to feeling
a little put out when
somebody insists I owe?some
person or group because some
predecessor?acted a certain
way. Even if I disapprove of
some historical behavior,
such as the treatment uf
North American indigenous
people by European
immigrants, I am still not
personally liable for those
immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against
helping them or anyone. Just
means that?rationally I may
deal with the fallout
(karma?) from history but I
do not feel guilty about
someone else's actions!
D
On
Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds
incredibly bigoted. My
ancestors weren't even in the
U.S. until the 20th century
and I'm still in favor of
helping peoples who were
mistreated in the U.S. before
they arrived. And, of course,
that includes the indigenous
peoples. You, however, I am
disappointed in.
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM,
Darrell King wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins of
the fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I do
believe in
continuous
improvement?on a
social level, I
consider myself
as bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any alleged
sins my
forefathers may
have been
involved?in! I
certainly do not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for those
sins to a
generation that
had no exposure
to said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all that,
I would support
forgivable loans
for ideas
assessed
solely?on their
business plans
and ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration of
ethnicity or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them a
chance to make
up for lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
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