// ?? The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?//
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Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent:
1. Ancient Civilizations (circa 3000 BCE ¨C 500 CE):
? Slavery was present in the earliest human societies, including ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and China. It often involved prisoners of war, debtors, and criminals. In ancient Greece and Rome, slaves were essential to agriculture, mining, and household work.
2. Medieval Period (500 ¨C 1500 CE):
? Slavery continued in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa during the Middle Ages. The Islamic Caliphates expanded the slave trade, particularly through North Africa and the Middle East. In parts of Europe, serfdom, a form of bonded labor, became prevalent, especially in feudal systems.
3. Transatlantic Slave Trade (1500 ¨C 1800s):
? The rise of European colonialism in the Americas led to one of the largest forced migrations in history. Millions of Africans were captured, transported across the Atlantic, and enslaved on plantations in the Americas, primarily for sugar, tobacco, and cotton production. This brutal system was driven by European nations like Portugal, Spain, Britain, and France.
4. Abolition Movements (1700s ¨C 1800s):
? Enlightenment ideals and resistance from enslaved people fueled abolition movements in the late 18th century. Britain abolished the slave trade in 1807, and the United States followed in 1808, though slavery persisted in the Americas until the late 1800s, with Brazil being the last country to officially abolish slavery in 1888.
5. Modern and Contemporary Forms (1900s ¨C Present):
? While legal slavery ended in most of the world by the early 20th century, forms of forced labor, human trafficking, and debt bondage continue today. Many international organizations, including the UN, have ongoing efforts to combat modern slavery, which affects millions worldwide, particularly in Asia and Africa.
This history shows slavery¡¯s pervasive and enduring nature, deeply tied to economic and political power across cultures and eras. ?? ?
First, ¡°the Left¡±: ?It is fairly clear who this is, though some conservatives¡¯ insistence on simplistically equating the Left with ¡°Marxism¡± ignores how leftist politics has taken different forms since its appearance in sixteenth-century Europe. ?Radical ideology is not universal in history. ?No Left, no ideologies, and no revolutions existed in ancient or medieval politics. ?The Left originated with modern history. ?- ?Stephen Baskerville, ?Who Lost America, ?2024
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On Oct 27, 2024, at 18:09, Ed Lomas <relomas2@...> wrote:
?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants? Ed On Sunday, October 27, 2024, a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only
people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were
African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then
that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There
is no blame needed for this to happen.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far
back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations
ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially
those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the
Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due
to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with
autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple
sources of impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be
unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or
not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have,
for example) it is fair to try to make up for that
unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning
those who are alive now as being responsible for that
unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and
shouldn't be rectified, though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
I
can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it
is formatted as verifiable and objectively
present-moment. Your reference to
"...discriminated against and haven't had the
same advantages as others..." would, in my
mind, address people alive now?who are
being treated in a manner at odds with my
values.?
Not
only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a
state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all
campers using the campground nor do I assess
whether?society at large should be
condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know
if all members of society were involved in
losing or abandoning the pup. I simply
rescued?the critter?and did what I consider
proper (he is safely with a protective
advocate now.)
I am a
Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I
use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me
in grade school English classes. I feel
protective of women and children (and lost
puppies!), and I try to respect those
around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all
this, I do not consider myself as advantaged.
I grew up very poor in a backwoods
rural?community with social anxiety,
bullying?and the strike of being from "the
wrong side of the tracks." For the most part,
I have earned any positive changes I benefit
from, although?I acknowledge having help from
others (including social breaks) whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not
get any free rides due to my disadvantages,
nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed
by the descendants of any who abused my
ancestors--those people currently breathing
were not part of those historical stories.
This is an accepted fact in a culture where
time travel?or common extreme longevity are
not likely truths. Basically, I deal with
today and do not try to atone?for the sins of
my ancestors.
I agree that
it is likely that many citizens, regardless of
belonging to groups noted for historic
mistreatment, have the potential to become
successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in
software despite?not initially believing?I
could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am
fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can
and approve of society stimulating such
resources for the benefit of all. I simply
think we need to be aware that there is (in my
judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the
story of historic treatment into a
manipulative and demonstrably logically
invalid behavioral lever of guilt.
With all
respect, I never mistreated anyone in the
1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the
figurative and generic 'you' want my support
for some modern-day effort, you had better use
a more clearly and rationally expressed
argument than that of emphasizing my
nonexistent complicity with whatever trials
your ancestors went through!
Thank you
for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment
either. I just don't understand why anyone would
be against helping those who have been
discriminated against and haven't had the same
advantages as others. Africans who were brought
to America suffered a lot of loss and then
weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I
think there were plenty around who would have
liked to become entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:
I
believe you mean to say you are in
favor of helping the descendants?of
people who were mistreated in the
U.S. before your parents arrived,
Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we
have been conditioned to ignore this
distinction as though I was port?of
that mistreatment. I was not and I
hope that even if I had been alive
and adult back in that day, I
would?not have contributed to
mistreatment.
I
often help people on an individual
basis. I share frequently when able.
This?is not out of any sense of
guilt or responsibility?related to
the behaviors of my social?or
biological ancestors, however, but
rather?originates on my
personal?values on the subject. I
admit to feeling a little put out
when somebody insists I owe?some
person or group because some
predecessor?acted a certain way.
Even if I disapprove of some
historical behavior, such as the
treatment uf North American
indigenous people by European
immigrants, I am still not
personally liable for those
immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping
them or anyone. Just means
that?rationally I may deal with the
fallout (karma?) from history but I
do not feel guilty about someone
else's actions!
D
On Sat,
Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly
bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in
the U.S. until the 20th century and
I'm still in favor of helping peoples
who were mistreated in the U.S. before
they arrived. And, of course, that
includes the indigenous peoples. You,
however, I am disappointed in.
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell wondered: I
am curious how many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs were
around during the "slavery
and discrimination eras"
to lose time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins of the
fathers?are carried to
the sons! While I do
believe in continuous
improvement?on a social
level, I consider myself
as bearing absolutely no
personal responsibility
for any alleged sins my
forefathers may have
been involved?in! I
certainly do not
oppose?entrepreneurism
in any group and so I am
wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for those sins to
a generation that had no
exposure to said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs no
matter ethnicity or
other social factors.
Base such support?on
the validity and value
of the business plan,
sure. I suppose I lean
rightward on the idea
that I should make up
for the idea that a
given population
deserves to be lifted
out of their woes
simply because of
historical
mistreatment?of a
population with
similarities. I try to
treat people decently
as part of my personal
morality, but I am not
responsible for how
others have treated
people.
Having vented all that, I would
support forgivable loans
for ideas assessed
solely?on their business
plans and ongoing
monitoring of their use
without consideration of
ethnicity or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste
Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans to black
men the equivalent of
shiny beads to
Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs. It gives
them a chance to make up
for lost time during the
slavery and
discrimination eras."
|
David Smith