Re: Friday Five October 25
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I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 10:46?PM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't
understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been
discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as
others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of
loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I
think there were plenty around who would have liked to become
entrepreneurs.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean
to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of
people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your
parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we
have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as
though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and
I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in
that day, I would?not have contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people
on an individual basis. I share frequently when able.
This?is not out of any sense of guilt or
responsibility?related to the behaviors of my
social?or biological ancestors, however, but
rather?originates on my personal?values on the
subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when
somebody insists I owe?some person or group
because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if
I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the
treatment uf North American indigenous people by
European immigrants, I am still not personally liable
for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just
means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout
(karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about
someone else's actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at
11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors
weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm
still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in
the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that
includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am
disappointed in.
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
And
Darrell wondered: I am curious
how many eligible?black entrepreneurs
were around during the "slavery
and discrimination eras" to lose time
thusly??
Sorry,
Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that
the sins of the fathers?are carried to the
sons! While I do believe in continuous
improvement?on a social level, I consider
myself as bearing absolutely no personal
responsibility for any alleged sins my
forefathers may have been involved?in! I
certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in
any group and so I am wary of this
constant effort to make amends?for those
sins to a generation that had no exposure
to said sins.
I
suppose social assistance for deserving
entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or
other social factors. Base such
support?on the validity and value of the
business plan, sure. I suppose I lean
rightward on the idea that I should make
up for the idea that a given population
deserves to be lifted out of their woes
simply because of historical
mistreatment?of a population with
similarities. I try to treat people
decently as part of my personal
morality, but I am not responsible for
how others have treated people.
Having
vented all that, I would support
forgivable loans for ideas assessed
solely?on their business plans and ongoing
monitoring of their use without
consideration of ethnicity or
similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?
Celeste
Answered to?Is
Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000
loans to black men the equivalent of
shiny beads to Indians??with "No,
not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to
make up for lost time during the slavery
and discrimination eras."
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