|
Hi All
I have a G11GT. If I screw up the Dec clutch knob to be tight, basically the worm crown wheel will no longer turn, all jammed up. From "tight" I turn the clutch knob back by a third to half a turn to free up the worm crown gear.
At this point I find the clutch to be susceptible to slip, already have neoprene infused cork clutch pad in there.
Is this correct / normal ???
Much appreciated, regard Richard
|
Hi Richard
in my experience, the looser the better, but not loose enough to slip.?
Good axis balancing really helps here?
Hi All
I have a G11GT. If I screw up the Dec clutch knob to be tight, basically the worm crown wheel will no longer turn, all jammed up. From "tight" I turn the clutch knob back by a third to half a turn to free up the worm crown gear.
At this point I find the clutch to be susceptible to slip, already have neoprene infused cork clutch pad in there.
Is this correct / normal ???
Much appreciated, regard Richard
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Thanks Brian and congratulations on your new role.
?
My struggles continue, completely frustrated and its now almost a year and a half. Every night it’s a different result and pretty much never a good one.
?
Attached is a couple of nights ago, best I’ve ever achieved, it lasted a hour or so and then deteriorated – and this was from the backyard. Also had a fresh PempPro PEC in place.
?
Next night, couldn’t do it again.
?
Anyway, the point of interest is to achieved this, PHD backlash compensation was on and at 2000 ms.
?
Regards Richard
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Valente via groups.io
Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 11:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
?
Hi Richard
in my experience, the looser the better, but not loose enough to slip.?
Good axis balancing really helps here?
?
Hi All
I have a G11GT. If I screw up the Dec clutch knob to be tight, basically the worm crown wheel will no longer turn, all jammed up. From "tight" I turn the clutch knob back by a third to half a turn to free up the worm crown gear.
At this point I find the clutch to be susceptible to slip, already have neoprene infused cork clutch pad in there.
Is this correct / normal ???
Much appreciated, regard Richard
--
This e-mail and any files attached are intended solely for the use of the addressee. They may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of
this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
|
Boy 0.46" guiding isn't anything to sneeze at, nice job
I'm not sure where you are on guiding, but if you wanted a complete review, i'm over at the PHD forums helping out and often recommend establishing a baseline guiding?
I have recently gotten my G11T back, and if I recall correctly, i did something like PEC for just the primary PE and then focused my PPEC guiding algorithm on one of the shorter periods (i want to say 41 seconds? something like that) which seemed to be pretty effective
Thanks Brian and congratulations on your new role.
?
My struggles continue, completely frustrated and its now almost a year and a half. Every night it’s a different result and pretty much never a good one.
?
Attached is a couple of nights ago, best I’ve ever achieved, it lasted a hour or so and then deteriorated – and this was from the backyard. Also had a fresh PempPro PEC in place.
?
Next night, couldn’t do it again.
?
Anyway, the point of interest is to achieved this, PHD backlash compensation was on and at 2000 ms.
?
Regards Richard
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Valente via
Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 11:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
?
Hi Richard
in my experience, the looser the better, but not loose enough to slip.?
Good axis balancing really helps here?
?
Hi All
I have a G11GT. If I screw up the Dec clutch knob to be tight, basically the worm crown wheel will no longer turn, all jammed up. From "tight" I turn the clutch knob back by a third to half a turn to free up the worm crown gear.
At this point I find the clutch to be susceptible to slip, already have neoprene infused cork clutch pad in there.
Is this correct / normal ???
Much appreciated, regard Richard
--
This e-mail and any files attached are intended solely for the use of the addressee. They may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of
this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Well it was once in 14 months for an hour with 2000ms backlash comp and I can’t do it again. I think I know what to try next.
?
Just thought now re RA axis on the G11GT. So if the answer on Dec is “the looser the better, but not loose enough to slip” – what about the RA ??
?
Tight as possible or same answer as for Dec ??
?
Thanks
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Valente via groups.io
Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
?
Boy 0.46" guiding isn't anything to sneeze at, nice job
I'm not sure where you are on guiding, but if you wanted a complete review, i'm over at the PHD forums helping out and often recommend establishing a baseline guiding?
I have recently gotten my G11T back, and if I recall correctly, i did something like PEC for just the primary PE and then focused my PPEC guiding algorithm on one of the shorter periods (i want to say 41 seconds? something like that) which
seemed to be pretty effective
?
Thanks Brian and congratulations on your new role.
?
My struggles continue, completely frustrated and its now almost a year and a half. Every night it’s a different result and pretty much never a good one.
?
Attached is a couple of nights ago, best I’ve ever achieved, it lasted a hour or so and then deteriorated – and this was from the backyard. Also had a fresh PempPro PEC in place.
?
Next night, couldn’t do it again.
?
Anyway, the point of interest is to achieved this, PHD backlash compensation was on and at 2000 ms.
?
Regards Richard
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Valente via
Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 11:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
?
Hi Richard
in my experience, the looser the better, but not loose enough to slip.?
Good axis balancing really helps here?
?
Hi All
I have a G11GT. If I screw up the Dec clutch knob to be tight, basically the worm crown wheel will no longer turn, all jammed up. From "tight" I turn the clutch knob back by a third to half a turn to free up the worm crown gear.
At this point I find the clutch to be susceptible to slip, already have neoprene infused cork clutch pad in there.
Is this correct / normal ???
Much appreciated, regard Richard
--
This e-mail and any files attached are intended solely for the use of the addressee. They may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, disclosure, copying
or distribution of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
--
|
RA is the same.?
it's a little different because you don't have to worry about backlash, but generally it's the same advice
Well it was once in 14 months for an hour with 2000ms backlash comp and I can’t do it again. I think I know what to try next.
?
Just thought now re RA axis on the G11GT. So if the answer on Dec is “the looser the better, but not loose enough to slip” – what about the RA ??
?
Tight as possible or same answer as for Dec ??
?
Thanks
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Valente via
Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
?
Boy 0.46" guiding isn't anything to sneeze at, nice job
I'm not sure where you are on guiding, but if you wanted a complete review, i'm over at the PHD forums helping out and often recommend establishing a baseline guiding?
I have recently gotten my G11T back, and if I recall correctly, i did something like PEC for just the primary PE and then focused my PPEC guiding algorithm on one of the shorter periods (i want to say 41 seconds? something like that) which
seemed to be pretty effective
?
Thanks Brian and congratulations on your new role.
?
My struggles continue, completely frustrated and its now almost a year and a half. Every night it’s a different result and pretty much never a good one.
?
Attached is a couple of nights ago, best I’ve ever achieved, it lasted a hour or so and then deteriorated – and this was from the backyard. Also had a fresh PempPro PEC in place.
?
Next night, couldn’t do it again.
?
Anyway, the point of interest is to achieved this, PHD backlash compensation was on and at 2000 ms.
?
Regards Richard
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Valente via
Sent: Friday, 15 May 2020 11:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
?
Hi Richard
in my experience, the looser the better, but not loose enough to slip.?
Good axis balancing really helps here?
?
Hi All
I have a G11GT. If I screw up the Dec clutch knob to be tight, basically the worm crown wheel will no longer turn, all jammed up. From "tight" I turn the clutch knob back by a third to half a turn to free up the worm crown gear.
At this point I find the clutch to be susceptible to slip, already have neoprene infused cork clutch pad in there.
Is this correct / normal ???
Much appreciated, regard Richard
--
This e-mail and any files attached are intended solely for the use of the addressee. They may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, disclosure, copying
or distribution of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
--
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Thanks for bringing this up.? The worm gear pressure depends on the tightening of the worm gear (assuming no spring loaded ones) but also on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I finally figured out that the only way for me to achieve a consistentworm gear pressure is to shim the outer block with some foil against the frame, then pressing inwards and axially while tightening it.? That was the only way in which I could get my EQStar motors to make a full turn.?
I was happy, then I found to my surprise that the pressure depends equally on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I don't think this is right but it is what it is.? My plan is to mark the clutch knob position with a piece of tape on both sides.? The pressure itself does not matter much IMHO, what matters is that you achieve the same pressure each time.? So if you can mark it you should be good.? Find that point then adjust the worm gear using shims.?
At least, that works for me.? IMHO regulating the worm gear is a huge issue.? I thought it was good for me to upgrade from my AVX to a Losmandy, wanting to buy American.? It almost got me out of the hobby, unfortunately.? If someone would have researched and documented this, that would have helped greatly.? Just trying to do this manually as is still shown on the video, simply does not work with the Celestron or EQStar motors, and will lead to much frustration.? I can't tell you how many times I adjusted the worms, and having goto motors (not the ones with the Celestron kit) is virtually necessary to test it.
|
Dear fellows,
I have read many similar reports over the past few years, about worm to ring gear tightness being affected by clutch knob tightness.
Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force.? At least, I should say, I can't see a part that should be affected.
Why: let's take the DEC axis (RA is similar).? Starting from the body section, there is a flat metal section above the 1.25 inch OD cylindrical needle bearings, holding the flat needle bearing, and it's flat upper and lower race washers.? Note that (on my systems) those 2 washers are not identical, so the assembly order matters: the lower flat washer should be the thin one, then the flat needle bearing, then the thicker flat race washer.??
The top of the ring gear is the bottom surface below the clutch pad.? The flat ring gear below the clutch pad is held firmly in place by the DEC body held by the RA section below it.? The ring gear aka worm wheel cannot shift from the pull on the flat clutch surface above it.? So the worm gear, also attached to the DEC body, should never see any distortion from the clutch knob pulling down on the upper clutch plate.
But many people see something happening... what could be causing it?
Let me toss out an idea...perhaps the assembly of the upper flat needle bearing races is done wrong:
If the lower race washer were the thicker one (by mistake in assembly), the upper race washer may be too thin to stay centered on the 1.25 inch axis.? If not centered, perhaps in that case pulling down on the clutch shaft could start to tilt the ring gear with respect to the worm gear. Then the effects you notice...the clutch knob force affecting the worm gear might occur.
Anyway, that's the only easy explanation I can suggest...
Best, Michael
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 8:05 AM Henk Aling < haling@...> wrote: Thanks for bringing this up.? The worm gear pressure depends on the tightening of the worm gear (assuming no spring loaded ones) but also on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I finally figured out that the only way for me to achieve a consistentworm gear pressure is to shim the outer block with some foil against the frame, then pressing inwards and axially while tightening it.? That was the only way in which I could get my EQStar motors to make a full turn.?
I was happy, then I found to my surprise that the pressure depends equally on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I don't think this is right but it is what it is.? My plan is to mark the clutch knob position with a piece of tape on both sides.? The pressure itself does not matter much IMHO, what matters is that you achieve the same pressure each time.? So if you can mark it you should be good.? Find that point then adjust the worm gear using shims.?
At least, that works for me.? IMHO regulating the worm gear is a huge issue.? I thought it was good for me to upgrade from my AVX to a Losmandy, wanting to buy American.? It almost got me out of the hobby, unfortunately.? If someone would have researched and documented this, that would have helped greatly.? Just trying to do this manually as is still shown on the video, simply does not work with the Celestron or EQStar motors, and will lead to much frustration.? I can't tell you how many times I adjusted the worms, and having goto motors (not the ones with the Celestron kit) is virtually necessary to test it.
|
Michael
I seem to remember a post at least a year ago that detailed bearings that were not pressed in co-linear with the flat surface so that tightening the clutch plate put uneven pressure on the whole assembly. In fact, the post claimed if you put enough pressure, i.e., torqued the crap out of it, the flat surface may warp. To check co-linearity takes a dial caliper and checking bearing depth from four spots 90 degrees apart from the flat surface. This post said that once the bearings were pressed in evenly, the ring to worm contact surface also became even.
Chuck
-----Original Message----- From: Michael Herman <mherman346@...> To: Losmandy_users < [email protected]> Sent: Sat, May 16, 2020 01:11 PM Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob Dear fellows,
I have read many similar reports over the past few years, about worm to ring gear tightness being affected by clutch knob tightness.
Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force.? At least, I should say, I can't see a part that should be affected.
Why: let's take the DEC axis (RA is similar).? Starting from the body section, there is a flat metal section above the 1.25 inch OD cylindrical needle bearings, holding the flat needle bearing, and it's flat upper and lower race washers.? Note that (on my systems) those 2 washers are not identical, so the assembly order matters: the lower flat washer should be the thin one, then the flat needle bearing, then the thicker flat race washer.??
The top of the ring gear is the bottom surface below the clutch pad.? The flat ring gear below the clutch pad is held firmly in place by the DEC body held by the RA section below it.? The ring gear aka worm wheel cannot shift from the pull on the flat clutch surface above it.? So the worm gear, also attached to the DEC body, should never see any distortion from the clutch knob pulling down on the upper clutch plate.
But many people see something happening... what could be causing it?
Let me toss out an idea...perhaps the assembly of the upper flat needle bearing races is done wrong:
If the lower race washer were the thicker one (by mistake in assembly), the upper race washer may be too thin to stay centered on the 1.25 inch axis.? If not centered, perhaps in that case pulling down on the clutch shaft could start to tilt the ring gear with respect to the worm gear. Then the effects you notice...the clutch knob force affecting the worm gear might occur.
Anyway, that's the only easy explanation I can suggest...
Best, Michael
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 8:05 AM Henk Aling < haling@...> wrote: Thanks for bringing this up.? The worm gear pressure depends on the tightening of the worm gear (assuming no spring loaded ones) but also on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I finally figured out that the only way for me to achieve a consistentworm gear pressure is to shim the outer block with some foil against the frame, then pressing inwards and axially while tightening it.? That was the only way in which I could get my EQStar motors to make a full turn.?
I was happy, then I found to my surprise that the pressure depends equally on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I don't think this is right but it is what it is.? My plan is to mark the clutch knob position with a piece of tape on both sides.? The pressure itself does not matter much IMHO, what matters is that you achieve the same pressure each time.? So if you can mark it you should be good.? Find that point then adjust the worm gear using shims.?
At least, that works for me.? IMHO regulating the worm gear is a huge issue.? I thought it was good for me to upgrade from my AVX to a Losmandy, wanting to buy American.? It almost got me out of the hobby, unfortunately.? If someone would have researched and documented this, that would have helped greatly.? Just trying to do this manually as is still shown on the video, simply does not work with the Celestron or EQStar motors, and will lead to much frustration.? I can't tell you how many times I adjusted the worms, and having goto motors (not the ones with the Celestron kit) is virtually necessary to test it.
|
The lowest clutch pressure without slippage is the best setting but this only works well if the mount is reasonably well balanced. There is noting in the mechanical design that would cause more or less pressure to change the tracking pe se, the axles are rolling on bearings and the thrust bearings are carrying the thrust load of the clutch. If you apply enough force there will be additional crag that can affect PE but why apply more than enough force than necessary to lock the clutches?? ??
--
Chip Louie - Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware
|
Michael, interesting, I've been told that all you need to do is tighten the DEC and RA clutches just enough so they will not move. That over tightening can put stress on the worm and motors. So you dont see that this is a issue? "HAPPY SKIES
AND KEEP LOOKING UP"
Deric
Sent from my Galaxy Tab A
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------
From: Michael Herman <mherman346@...>
Date: 5/16/20 3:11 PM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
Dear fellows,
I have read many similar reports over the past few years, about worm to ring gear tightness being affected by clutch knob tightness.
Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force.? At least, I should say, I can't see a part that should be affected.
Why: let's take the DEC axis (RA is similar).? Starting from the body section, there is a flat metal section above the 1.25 inch OD cylindrical needle bearings, holding the flat needle bearing, and it's flat upper and lower race washers.? Note
that (on my systems) those 2 washers are not identical, so the assembly order matters: the lower flat washer should be the thin one, then the flat needle bearing, then the thicker flat race washer.??
The top of the ring gear is the bottom surface below the clutch pad.? The flat ring gear below the clutch pad is held firmly in place by the DEC body held by the RA section below it.? The ring gear aka worm wheel cannot shift from the pull on
the flat clutch surface above it.? So the worm gear, also attached to the DEC body, should never see any distortion from the clutch knob pulling down on the upper clutch plate.
But many people see something happening... what could be causing it?
Let me toss out an idea...perhaps the assembly of the upper flat needle bearing races is done wrong:
If the lower race washer were the thicker one (by mistake in assembly), the upper race washer may be too thin to stay centered on the 1.25 inch axis.? If not centered, perhaps in that case pulling down on the clutch shaft could start to tilt
the ring gear with respect to the worm gear. Then the effects you notice...the clutch knob force affecting the worm gear might occur.
Anyway, that's the only easy explanation I can suggest...
Best,
Michael
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 8:05 AM Henk Aling < haling@...> wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up.? The worm gear pressure depends on the tightening of the worm gear (assuming no spring loaded ones) but also on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I finally figured out that the only way for me to achieve a consistentworm gear
pressure is to shim the outer block with some foil against the frame, then pressing inwards and axially while tightening it.? That was the only way in which I could get my EQStar motors to make a full turn.?
I was happy, then I found to my surprise that the pressure depends equally on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I don't think this is right but it is what it is.? My plan is to mark the clutch knob position with a piece of tape on both sides.? The pressure
itself does not matter much IMHO, what matters is that you achieve the same pressure each time.? So if you can mark it you should be good.? Find that point then adjust the worm gear using shims.?
At least, that works for me.? IMHO regulating the worm gear is a huge issue.? I thought it was good for me to upgrade from my AVX to a Losmandy, wanting to buy American.? It almost got me out of the hobby, unfortunately.? If someone would have researched and
documented this, that would have helped greatly.? Just trying to do this manually as is still shown on the video, simply does not work with the Celestron or EQStar motors, and will lead to much frustration.? I can't tell you how many times I adjusted the worms,
and having goto motors (not the ones with the Celestron kit) is virtually necessary to test it.
|
My experience is that overtightening causes it all to jam up. Not great.
?
There is also a different feel of the worm spur gears when turned back and forth when trying to sort out backlash etc. Overtightening gives misleading ‘feel’.
?
Overtightening is not good. I do it up tight and then back but 1/3 to ? a turn – G11 Dec.
?
Please LISTEN to my attached video, does this sound right. Tight then turned back by a 1/3 of a turn. Even looser or tighter it sounds the same.
?
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Deric Caselli via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, 17 May 2020 7:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
?
Michael, interesting, I've been told that all you need to do is tighten the DEC and RA clutches just enough so they will not move. That over tightening can put stress on the worm and motors. So you dont see that this is a issue? "HAPPY
SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP"
Sent from my Galaxy Tab A
-------- Original message --------
Date: 5/16/20 3:11 PM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
Dear fellows,
I have read many similar reports over the past few years, about worm to ring gear tightness being affected by clutch knob tightness.
Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force.? At least, I should say, I can't see a part that should be affected.
Why: let's take the DEC axis (RA is similar).? Starting from the body section, there is a flat metal section above the 1.25 inch OD cylindrical needle bearings, holding the flat needle bearing, and it's flat upper and lower race washers.?
Note that (on my systems) those 2 washers are not identical, so the assembly order matters: the lower flat washer should be the thin one, then the flat needle bearing, then the thicker flat race washer.??
The top of the ring gear is the bottom surface below the clutch pad.? The flat ring gear below the clutch pad is held firmly in place by the DEC body held by the RA section below it.? The ring gear aka worm wheel cannot shift from the pull
on the flat clutch surface above it.? So the worm gear, also attached to the DEC body, should never see any distortion from the clutch knob pulling down on the upper clutch plate.
But many people see something happening... what could be causing it?
Let me toss out an idea...perhaps the assembly of the upper flat needle bearing races is done wrong:
If the lower race washer were the thicker one (by mistake in assembly), the upper race washer may be too thin to stay centered on the 1.25 inch axis.? If not centered, perhaps in that case pulling down on the clutch shaft could start to
tilt the ring gear with respect to the worm gear. Then the effects you notice...the clutch knob force affecting the worm gear might occur.
Anyway, that's the only easy explanation I can suggest...
?
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 8:05 AM Henk Aling <haling@...> wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up.? The worm gear pressure depends on the tightening of the worm gear (assuming no spring loaded ones) but also on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I finally figured out that the only way for me to achieve a
consistentworm gear pressure is to shim the outer block with some foil against the frame, then pressing inwards and axially while tightening it.? That was the only way in which I could get my EQStar motors to make a full turn.?
I was happy, then I found to my surprise that the pressure depends equally on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I don't think this is right but it is what it is.? My plan is to mark the clutch knob position with a piece of tape on both sides.? The pressure
itself does not matter much IMHO, what matters is that you achieve the same pressure each time.? So if you can mark it you should be good.? Find that point then adjust the worm gear using shims.?
At least, that works for me.? IMHO regulating the worm gear is a huge issue.? I thought it was good for me to upgrade from my AVX to a Losmandy, wanting to buy American.? It almost got me out of the hobby, unfortunately.? If someone would have researched and
documented this, that would have helped greatly.? Just trying to do this manually as is still shown on the video, simply does not work with the Celestron or EQStar motors, and will lead to much frustration.? I can't tell you how many times I adjusted the worms,
and having goto motors (not the ones with the Celestron kit) is virtually necessary to test it.
This e-mail and any files attached are intended solely for the use of the addressee. They may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of
this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
|
Hi Deric,
I believe that Brian is going to pursue the issue, and respond.??
Like I said, I can't really see any normal way this effect could occur...certainly not in a G11.? ?It was reported as a rare issue on GM8 mounts, but never similar problem with a G11.? The issue with GM8 was detectable, by measuring variations in the tiny gap between the black anodized sections of the body.??
I will say you be aware of this: On all worm drive systems, the worm center axis is supposed to be at the exact center of the ring gear height.? On mounts like the Orion Atlas/Synta EQ6, there are thin plastic shims to adjust the height of the internal ring gear.? But the Losmandy systems do not use any shims at all.? Instead the worm height is precisely set by the worm blocks and the worm R4ZZ bearings, and the worm dimensions.? It's therefore the ring gear height that I suspect...something is pulling that up and down...it should not.
Another clue is that Mark Crossley's website , mentioned he had to add a thin shim under one worm block to get his G11 worm perfectly centered in the ring gear.? It's good to check that heights match correctly, if you find worm gear to ring gear issues.? It was easier (not exactly easy!) to check in the original 2-block drive design.??
The worm height is set by it's blocks, but the height of the ring gear is set by the flat needle bearing, and it's facing flat race washers.? The races and flat bearings all have a variance in thickness, which might affect this height.? ? The clutch disk is above that and should not affect the worm to ring centering.??
Let's let Brian work on an official answer to this rare issue of clutch knob force affecting the worm and ring gear.? It remains a puzzle to me.??
All the best, Michael
Michael, interesting, I've been told that all you need to do is tighten the DEC and RA clutches just enough so they will not move. That over tightening can put stress on the worm and motors. So you dont see that this is a issue? "HAPPY SKIES
AND KEEP LOOKING UP"
Deric
Sent from my Galaxy Tab A
-------- Original message --------
Date: 5/16/20 3:11 PM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
Dear fellows,
I have read many similar reports over the past few years, about worm to ring gear tightness being affected by clutch knob tightness.
Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force.? At least, I should say, I can't see a part that should be affected.
Why: let's take the DEC axis (RA is similar).? Starting from the body section, there is a flat metal section above the 1.25 inch OD cylindrical needle bearings, holding the flat needle bearing, and it's flat upper and lower race washers.? Note
that (on my systems) those 2 washers are not identical, so the assembly order matters: the lower flat washer should be the thin one, then the flat needle bearing, then the thicker flat race washer.??
The top of the ring gear is the bottom surface below the clutch pad.? The flat ring gear below the clutch pad is held firmly in place by the DEC body held by the RA section below it.? The ring gear aka worm wheel cannot shift from the pull on
the flat clutch surface above it.? So the worm gear, also attached to the DEC body, should never see any distortion from the clutch knob pulling down on the upper clutch plate.
But many people see something happening... what could be causing it?
Let me toss out an idea...perhaps the assembly of the upper flat needle bearing races is done wrong:
If the lower race washer were the thicker one (by mistake in assembly), the upper race washer may be too thin to stay centered on the 1.25 inch axis.? If not centered, perhaps in that case pulling down on the clutch shaft could start to tilt
the ring gear with respect to the worm gear. Then the effects you notice...the clutch knob force affecting the worm gear might occur.
Anyway, that's the only easy explanation I can suggest...
Best,
Michael
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 8:05 AM Henk Aling < haling@...> wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up.? The worm gear pressure depends on the tightening of the worm gear (assuming no spring loaded ones) but also on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I finally figured out that the only way for me to achieve a consistentworm gear
pressure is to shim the outer block with some foil against the frame, then pressing inwards and axially while tightening it.? That was the only way in which I could get my EQStar motors to make a full turn.?
I was happy, then I found to my surprise that the pressure depends equally on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I don't think this is right but it is what it is.? My plan is to mark the clutch knob position with a piece of tape on both sides.? The pressure
itself does not matter much IMHO, what matters is that you achieve the same pressure each time.? So if you can mark it you should be good.? Find that point then adjust the worm gear using shims.?
At least, that works for me.? IMHO regulating the worm gear is a huge issue.? I thought it was good for me to upgrade from my AVX to a Losmandy, wanting to buy American.? It almost got me out of the hobby, unfortunately.? If someone would have researched and
documented this, that would have helped greatly.? Just trying to do this manually as is still shown on the video, simply does not work with the Celestron or EQStar motors, and will lead to much frustration.? I can't tell you how many times I adjusted the worms,
and having goto motors (not the ones with the Celestron kit) is virtually necessary to test it.
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Hi Michael,
That's sounds good to me, My old AVX mount needed to be as tight as it could, to work properly. I've just gathered from earlier threads that you only need as to tighten the RA and DEC on a Losmandy G11 just enough.? HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING
UP Deric
Sent from my Galaxy Tab A
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-------- Original message --------
From: Michael Herman <mherman346@...>
Date: 5/16/20 7:25 PM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
Hi Deric,
I believe that Brian is going to pursue the issue, and respond.??
Like I said, I can't really see any normal way this effect could occur...certainly not in a G11.? ?It was reported as a rare issue on GM8 mounts, but never similar problem with a G11.? The issue with GM8 was detectable, by measuring variations
in the tiny gap between the black anodized sections of the body.??
I will say you be aware of this: On all worm drive systems, the worm center axis is supposed to be at the exact center of the ring gear height.? On mounts like the Orion Atlas/Synta EQ6, there are thin plastic shims to adjust the height of the
internal ring gear.? But the Losmandy systems do not use any shims at all.? Instead the worm height is precisely set by the worm blocks and the worm R4ZZ bearings, and the worm dimensions.? It's therefore the ring gear height that I suspect...something is
pulling that up and down...it should not.
Another clue is that Mark Crossley's website , mentioned he had to add a thin shim under one worm block to get his G11 worm perfectly centered in the ring gear.? It's good to check that heights match correctly, if you find worm gear to ring gear issues.? It was easier (not exactly
easy!) to check in the original 2-block drive design.??
The worm height is set by it's blocks, but the height of the ring gear is set by the flat needle bearing, and it's facing flat race washers.? The races and flat bearings all have a variance in thickness, which might affect this height.? ? The
clutch disk is above that and should not affect the worm to ring centering.??
Let's let Brian work on an official answer to this rare issue of clutch knob force affecting the worm and ring gear.? It remains a puzzle to me.??
All the best,
Michael
Michael, interesting, I've been told that all you need to do is tighten the DEC and RA clutches just enough so they will not move. That over tightening can put stress on the worm and motors. So you dont see that this is a issue? "HAPPY SKIES
AND KEEP LOOKING UP"
Deric
Sent from my Galaxy Tab A
-------- Original message --------
Date: 5/16/20 3:11 PM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] G11 Dec Axis, How Tight to Do Up Clutch Knob
Dear fellows,
I have read many similar reports over the past few years, about worm to ring gear tightness being affected by clutch knob tightness.
Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force.? At least, I should say, I can't see a part that should be affected.
Why: let's take the DEC axis (RA is similar).? Starting from the body section, there is a flat metal section above the 1.25 inch OD cylindrical needle bearings, holding the flat needle bearing, and it's flat upper and lower race washers.? Note
that (on my systems) those 2 washers are not identical, so the assembly order matters: the lower flat washer should be the thin one, then the flat needle bearing, then the thicker flat race washer.??
The top of the ring gear is the bottom surface below the clutch pad.? The flat ring gear below the clutch pad is held firmly in place by the DEC body held by the RA section below it.? The ring gear aka worm wheel cannot shift from the pull on
the flat clutch surface above it.? So the worm gear, also attached to the DEC body, should never see any distortion from the clutch knob pulling down on the upper clutch plate.
But many people see something happening... what could be causing it?
Let me toss out an idea...perhaps the assembly of the upper flat needle bearing races is done wrong:
If the lower race washer were the thicker one (by mistake in assembly), the upper race washer may be too thin to stay centered on the 1.25 inch axis.? If not centered, perhaps in that case pulling down on the clutch shaft could start to tilt
the ring gear with respect to the worm gear. Then the effects you notice...the clutch knob force affecting the worm gear might occur.
Anyway, that's the only easy explanation I can suggest...
Best,
Michael
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 8:05 AM Henk Aling < haling@...> wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up.? The worm gear pressure depends on the tightening of the worm gear (assuming no spring loaded ones) but also on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I finally figured out that the only way for me to achieve a consistentworm gear
pressure is to shim the outer block with some foil against the frame, then pressing inwards and axially while tightening it.? That was the only way in which I could get my EQStar motors to make a full turn.?
I was happy, then I found to my surprise that the pressure depends equally on the tightening of the clutch knob.? I don't think this is right but it is what it is.? My plan is to mark the clutch knob position with a piece of tape on both sides.? The pressure
itself does not matter much IMHO, what matters is that you achieve the same pressure each time.? So if you can mark it you should be good.? Find that point then adjust the worm gear using shims.?
At least, that works for me.? IMHO regulating the worm gear is a huge issue.? I thought it was good for me to upgrade from my AVX to a Losmandy, wanting to buy American.? It almost got me out of the hobby, unfortunately.? If someone would have researched and
documented this, that would have helped greatly.? Just trying to do this manually as is still shown on the video, simply does not work with the Celestron or EQStar motors, and will lead to much frustration.? I can't tell you how many times I adjusted the worms,
and having goto motors (not the ones with the Celestron kit) is virtually necessary to test it.
|
As Michael said:?
"Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force."
From a post of a few years ago, here is my (older) G11 where the shaft is clearly not perpendicular.?? /g/Losmandy_users/photo/54848/5?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0Kudos to Scott though who re-machined at no charge. Keith
|
Nice photos, Keith. Your use of a metal "square" showed the shaft was not at 90 degrees as required.?
That's a good, easy test to do, say whenever you change clutch disks.
Therefore, if off-90°, when the clutch knob would be cranked back by tightening the clutch knob, the off-90° clutch upper face would act as a "spring" on the clutch disk, and it could potentially tilt the ring gear below the clutch disk.??
A tilted ring gear would periodically get hung up or get loose on the worm.
I think it?still would be very hard to tip the ring gear, because the ring gear is sitting on a flat needle bearing.? But, everything solid is still elastic (I love the Matrix movies for that helicopter crash into the building, or when Neo jumps skyward to evade the army of Smiths...rippling the cement ground!).
I can only think this off-90° shift in the threaded 1.25 inch steel shaft could happen (on an originally perfectly made system) if someone was inserting a very heavy scope in the dovetail, it somehow from it's weight on the back, bent the aluminum dovetail plate.? This would be harder in a G11 and easier in a GM8.? Nothing is impossible...
Anyway, the plot thickens...? the person with the clutch knob ring gear worm issue could do that simple measurement you show...
Michael
As Michael said:?
"Strictly speaking, from the design itself, if all the parts are solid and all the shafts are perpendicular, there should be no effect of the clutch knob force."
From a post of a few years ago, here is my (older) G11 where the shaft is clearly not perpendicular.??/g/Losmandy_users/photo/54848/4?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
Kudos to Scott though who re-machined at no charge.
Keith
|
Hi,
when not in use, should I leave the mount with clutches on or off? I mean fully tightened ?or just a liitle to secure the ota?
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Hi Sebastian
it makes no difference. Personally I leave them tight (not hard tight, but tight) because often I grab the mount and put on the telescope without thinking, and sometimes that has bitten me in the butt!
On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 12:17 PM Sebastian Kotulski < sebkotulski@...> wrote: Hi,
when not in use, should I leave the mount with clutches on or off? I mean fully tightened ?or just a liitle to secure the ota?
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
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For me, it makes a difference . If I leave the clutches disengaged for a few days, it is difficult or impossible to tighten them later. I had to clean them with IPA to work properly.
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I should say "normally" it doesn't make a difference.
It sounds like you may want to add a touch of grease in there, especially if you are cleaning with ipa.
Thermal expansion/contraction could cause that but these leave the factory with a bit of grease, so maybe time to do that
Brian?
On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 1:07 PM Sebastian Kotulski < sebkotulski@...> wrote: For me, it makes a difference . If I leave the clutches disengaged for a few days, it is difficult or impossible to tighten them later. I had to clean them with IPA to work properly.
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
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Michael Herman
Chip Louie