McLennan gearbox PE results
You may remember that not long ago I replaced the Losmandy gearboxes on my G11 (which had seen better days) with McLennan gearboxes. All I was able to say at the time about possible improvements was that they were a LOT quieter. Last night was the first opportunity I've had to record the PE data since I fitted the McLennan gearboxes. I used PecPrep to record the PE over almost six worm cycles, and the results were quite excellent - far better that I could have hoped for. With the original Losmandy gearboxes the results I obtained were quite good: 4.83 arc-seconds Peak to Peak < /g/Losmandy_users/files/David%20Partridge/Before%20PEC%20Training.PNG> The results from last night by contrast were nothing short of outstanding: 1.6 arc-seconds Peak to Peak (RMS 0.33 arc-seconds) < /g/Losmandy_users/files/David%20Partridge/24%20April%202020%20PE.png> This is so good that quite honestly I don't think I'll bother with PEC training. Note that I didn't edit the PecPrep files to enter the gearbox information for the McLennan gearboxes (though that wouldn't change the results). This is using the original worm (not the HP worm) and twin worm blocks, ABEC-5 bearings, a Belville washer in the block furthest from the gearbox and the bearing in that worm block lapped to a sliding fit. Keep well and clear skies David
|
I spent some time with my GM811G and trying the balance with the scope on the East side, in all positions, and as a matter of curiosity on the West side as well.
It seemed to be well balanced everywhere.?
--
SonnyE
(I suggest viewed in full screen)
|
I appreciate all the comments and suggestions, I really do. I've been playing Astronomer since 1975 and balance was not really a major issue with visual-first few years. The I got the photograph bug and was using a fork mount, these last many years I purchased a Titan--it looked solid. Tonight the guiding is good and the stars are pin points. My balance routing will now change because of this experience. This hobby is such that one never stops learning; got to love it.
Kenn
|
Re: configuring ethernet/microrouter for gemini
eventually yes, the idea here was to do a dry run and see what questions come up
Will you be publishing a video of this?
I'm interested in learning about it, but it is impractical for me to run a bunch of CAT 5-6 around.
Although I am very happy with my currant WiFi connected situation.
--
SonnyE
(I suggest viewed in full screen)
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Re: configuring ethernet/microrouter for gemini
Will you be publishing a video of this?
I'm interested in learning about it, but it is impractical for me to run a bunch of CAT 5-6 around.
Although I am very happy with my currant WiFi connected situation.
--
SonnyE
(I suggest viewed in full screen)
|
Ithinkwealldogoodadvic.bobfranklin
On Friday, April 24, 2020 Nels Johansen via groups.io <[email protected]> wrote:?As the video shows, the scope needs to be balanced vertical and horizontal. The gentleman in the video was turning the focuser into a position that makes it impossible to use visually, toward the mount. Turn the scope in the other direction so the focuser is pointed away from the mount and with a 3 foot step platform ladder it can be used visually while it is in balance.? If one is using a camera the access to the focuser is not very important. Weather one has a Newtonian or a refractor the scope should be balanced in both positions.
I have to do this every time out with my set up.
Clear Skies!
Nels Johansen
|
?As the video shows, the scope needs to be balanced vertical and horizontal. The gentleman in the video was turning the focuser into a position that makes it impossible to use visually, toward the mount. Turn the scope in the other direction so the focuser is pointed away from the mount and with a 3 foot step platform ladder it can be used visually while it is in balance.? If one is using a camera the access to the focuser is not very important. Weather one has a Newtonian or a refractor the scope should be balanced in both positions.
I have to do this every time out with my set up.
Clear Skies!
Nels Johansen
|
My own gotcha the other night was:
My USB and dew heater cables somehow snagged and held back the mount tracking ... erratically.??
So I took advice I'd ignored for years, and tied them all to the scope and along the axis, so the axes can rotate and they can't snag.??
I'll attempt to prove it tonight, on a? semiclear night.??
Have fun, all,
Michael
Sonny, loved your post!!!? Your final statement is so true - "no rhyme nor reason."? My wife likes to join me outside and has seen my struggles first hand, and now understands that statement fully.? One night I'll be happy as a lark, with everything going smooth as butter.? The next night, set up exactly the same way, do exactly the same routine, and NOTHING works.? Not to mention that same night you'll get some unusual bright light, or maybe the mosquitoes will be more hungry than usual, or who knows what (clouds?? I won't even go there).
The part about breathing slow cracked me up too.? The place we lived before we moved to where we are now had a concrete slab driveway.? I would set up my scope, start imaging and quickly and gingerly move off the concrete slab the scope was on so as to minimize any movement or vibrations that would show up in my images.? And yes, I do use vibration dampers.
Someone else (privately) suggested that the clutches could be an issue.? It's hard to know what's too tight, and what's not tight enough.? I'll pay more attention to that tonight.? As for SharpCap, I thought about that, but I now have Astrophotography Tool, so if I want to do plate solving for PA, I could do that, but I think my PA using PoleMaster is good enough, really.
Finally, the Leo Trio was my first target last night, and just like last time, I got a nice satellite trail right thru one of the images.? You really gotta love this hobby to put up with all the crapola we deal with!? Perseverance for sure!
Unfortunately I have no suggestions to maybe help you out.? I guess I'm where you were as that worm in the bird's mouth right now.
|
Sonny, loved your post!!!? Your final statement is so true - "no rhyme nor reason."? My wife likes to join me outside and has seen my struggles first hand, and now understands that statement fully.? One night I'll be happy as a lark, with everything going smooth as butter.? The next night, set up exactly the same way, do exactly the same routine, and NOTHING works.? Not to mention that same night you'll get some unusual bright light, or maybe the mosquitoes will be more hungry than usual, or who knows what (clouds?? I won't even go there).
The part about breathing slow cracked me up too.? The place we lived before we moved to where we are now had a concrete slab driveway.? I would set up my scope, start imaging and quickly and gingerly move off the concrete slab the scope was on so as to minimize any movement or vibrations that would show up in my images.? And yes, I do use vibration dampers.
Someone else (privately) suggested that the clutches could be an issue.? It's hard to know what's too tight, and what's not tight enough.? I'll pay more attention to that tonight.? As for SharpCap, I thought about that, but I now have Astrophotography Tool, so if I want to do plate solving for PA, I could do that, but I think my PA using PoleMaster is good enough, really.
Finally, the Leo Trio was my first target last night, and just like last time, I got a nice satellite trail right thru one of the images.? You really gotta love this hobby to put up with all the crapola we deal with!? Perseverance for sure!
Unfortunately I have no suggestions to maybe help you out.? I guess I'm where you were as that worm in the bird's mouth right now.
|
Sonny
>>>Interestingly enough, last night when building my Model from the start up, it chose Arcturus as the first Star. When it slew to the next Star, it was off by a mile
was the next star on the opposite side of pier? because that's essentially starting from scratch as well i.e., it's the first star of the second model
Hi AstroItalian!
I hear Ya. It can get to be frustrating. And downright piss you off.
I struggled like a worm in a birds beak for my first year or more. Probably because I just dove in with my best guesses based on refining wish lists aimed at my goal of Astroimaging.
In those struggles, I made progress, and eventually got things working. One thing for sure is that the most minute change can affect so much in this stuff.
Think about it, I found that just the ground vibrations of me walking near my mount telegraphed into the images. I finally had to take to not moving at all, and even breathing slow and methodically so I don't cause star bloating due to vibrations.
Many have chastised me for my insistence on tripod leveling. Long have I worked around various massive machines and equipment. And seen the great pains taken to make sure they were level, and then actually grouted to the foundations with a loose grout slurry. All to insure they were as stable as possible. And that the axis of them were as straight horizontally or vertically as was possible. To remove as much human error as possible.
So it is when setting up my mount. If I take the extra time to try and get things on as true a plane to the Earth's Axis, the better the chances of my telescope running true when it turns on it's axis'. A little extra care will hopefully get better results.
So I use an electronic digital level, and a plate of cold rolled 5/16" thick steel to get my tripod to 0.0¡ã on 3 axis (the tripod legs). That way I'm assured I'm beginning from as good a platform as I humanly can, each session.
Night... after... night...? Even when my tripod is left set up, I still check it. With my GM811G, on my homemade level adjusters, it is usually still at 0.0¡ã of level.
So a good base for the rest to land upon. Because, to me, accuracy counts.
Because my primary interest is Astroimaging, I use my cameras to center my Modeling (or alignment) Stars. My final aim point is always with imposed crosshairs in my main imaging camera. The idea is, again, accuracy and human error reduction.
Interestingly enough, last night when building my Model from the start up, it chose Arcturus as the first Star. When it slew to the next Star, it was off by a mile. Way off! I brought it back to the Brightest Star in my immediate FOV, and selected Align on it. But it got worse after that. Not one to waste my time, I told the mount to Go-To Park, Counterweight Down. And it missed that substantially.
So I shut down the Gemini 2, and physically brought everything back to Polaris, checked my camera alignment on Polaris as a starting point, then began again. The only thing I could imagine was the clutches slipping to mess things up with the first attempt. So those were snugged up before beginning again. The second attempt was normal and without gremlins crawling in and out.
After my plate solver did a good solve, it suggested I run it again. After that it just could not solve again.
So I tried SharpCap for Polar Aligning, for the first time. Everybody seems to like it, even when it is the only part of SharpCap they use. So I figured "Follow the Herd". LOL! Well, it got me pretty far, but that's a Pay-To-Play part, you gotta go Pro.
So I went Pro and put my $15 USD in their coffers.
But after that, all I did was to fritter away with settings and starting overs, and closing it several times, and rebooting my Baby Dell. I came back inside and went webbing around for tutorials.....
I woke up around 1 AM with a kink in my neck, and went out to start a new sequence, even though still wondering if I had done any good with my fooling around. The Sequence was for M66 from a very good friend. But my plate solving seemed to get stuck.
I could see the Leo Trio in the Image, but ASTAP couldn't solve it. Finally, around 2 AM I called it quits, shut down and tore down and dragged it all in. Tonight will be a new night to play again.
So, sometimes there just isn't any rhyme of reason to this stuff. No matter what it kicks your butt, then sends you to bed. Then, magically, the next night everything works like it should.
But eventually, there are more great nights, than there are the bad ones. Because that's where the Perseverance part comes in, Ya don't give up.
--
SonnyE
(I suggest viewed in full screen)
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Hi AstroItalian!
I hear Ya. It can get to be frustrating. And downright piss you off.
I struggled like a worm in a birds beak for my first year or more. Probably because I just dove in with my best guesses based on refining wish lists aimed at my goal of Astroimaging.
In those struggles, I made progress, and eventually got things working. One thing for sure is that the most minute change can affect so much in this stuff.
Think about it, I found that just the ground vibrations of me walking near my mount telegraphed into the images. I finally had to take to not moving at all, and even breathing slow and methodically so I don't cause star bloating due to vibrations.
Many have chastised me for my insistence on tripod leveling. Long have I worked around various massive machines and equipment. And seen the great pains taken to make sure they were level, and then actually grouted to the foundations with a loose grout slurry. All to insure they were as stable as possible. And that the axis of them were as straight horizontally or vertically as was possible. To remove as much human error as possible.
So it is when setting up my mount. If I take the extra time to try and get things on as true a plane to the Earth's Axis, the better the chances of my telescope running true when it turns on it's axis'. A little extra care will hopefully get better results.
So I use an electronic digital level, and a plate of cold rolled 5/16" thick steel to get my tripod to 0.0¡ã on 3 axis (the tripod legs). That way I'm assured I'm beginning from as good a platform as I humanly can, each session.
Night... after... night...? Even when my tripod is left set up, I still check it. With my GM811G, on my homemade level adjusters, it is usually still at 0.0¡ã of level.
So a good base for the rest to land upon. Because, to me, accuracy counts.
Because my primary interest is Astroimaging, I use my cameras to center my Modeling (or alignment) Stars. My final aim point is always with imposed crosshairs in my main imaging camera. The idea is, again, accuracy and human error reduction.
Interestingly enough, last night when building my Model from the start up, it chose Arcturus as the first Star. When it slew to the next Star, it was off by a mile. Way off! I brought it back to the Brightest Star in my immediate FOV, and selected Align on it. But it got worse after that. Not one to waste my time, I told the mount to Go-To Park, Counterweight Down. And it missed that substantially.
So I shut down the Gemini 2, and physically brought everything back to Polaris, checked my camera alignment on Polaris as a starting point, then began again. The only thing I could imagine was the clutches slipping to mess things up with the first attempt. So those were snugged up before beginning again. The second attempt was normal and without gremlins crawling in and out.
After my plate solver did a good solve, it suggested I run it again. After that it just could not solve again.
So I tried SharpCap for Polar Aligning, for the first time. Everybody seems to like it, even when it is the only part of SharpCap they use. So I figured "Follow the Herd". LOL! Well, it got me pretty far, but that's a Pay-To-Play part, you gotta go Pro.
So I went Pro and put my $15 USD in their coffers.
But after that, all I did was to fritter away with settings and starting overs, and closing it several times, and rebooting my Baby Dell. I came back inside and went webbing around for tutorials.....
I woke up around 1 AM with a kink in my neck, and went out to start a new sequence, even though still wondering if I had done any good with my fooling around. The Sequence was for M66 from a very good friend. But my plate solving seemed to get stuck.
I could see the Leo Trio in the Image, but ASTAP couldn't solve it. Finally, around 2 AM I called it quits, shut down and tore down and dragged it all in. Tonight will be a new night to play again.
So, sometimes there just isn't any rhyme of reason to this stuff. No matter what it kicks your butt, then sends you to bed. Then, magically, the next night everything works like it should.
But eventually, there are more great nights, than there are the bad ones. Because that's where the Perseverance part comes in, Ya don't give up.
--
SonnyE
(I suggest viewed in full screen)
|
Re: Losmandy_users group File section is getting full
Folks, we've used up 100% of the available space in this group for files, photos, and attachments. This will cause any new messages with attachments, photo or file uploads to fail. To remedy the situation, I did the following:
1. Removed a few very large attachments from older messages (a few large video files and 20MB-sized log files). Message authors should receive an email with notification, but only three such messages were cleaned up.
2. Turned on a group feature that will automatically delete some older attachments as we run out of space. This will happen automatically when more file/image/attachment space is needed. This only affects message attachments, files and photos will not be touched.
Please don't send very large attachments, such as videos, as part of your message. You can post the video on Youtube or another video hosting site and include the link to it in your post.
If you do need to upload a large log file, please use Zip or similar compression software, as this will reduce file size to a tiny portion of the original. If possible, please try to host large files outside the Groups File/Photos/Attachment areas.
Best Regards,
? ? ?-Paul
|
... a recommendation:
Don't forget the internal mechanical parts: the needle bearings that these 1.25 inch steel axle shafts ride on.? Over time, those needle bearings can also develop high turning friction and make your balancing?work a bit more cumbersome.? The mount design used two types of needle bearing: flat on the top and bottom of each 1.25 inch shaft, and 2 cylindrical needle bearings in the axis body to allow the shaft to spin.??
If you read about needle bearings, you find they are prone to lubricant gumming up over time.? Then the needles become stuck and won't roll as designed.? The needles themselves are very fine rollers...I'll guess like 3/16 inch diameter.? The papers I've read say they should be lubricated to keep them rolling freely.? Here is a view down the RA if a CG11. You might see a bit of the upper cylindrical bearing in there.??
If your scope is easy to remove, try pulling each shaft and spraying in a good light lubricant.? You can get to the cylindrical needle bearings (one upper near the clutch pad, one lower near the clutch knob) by pulling out the shaft, as though to inspect the clutch disk for contamination.? Just don't get any lube on the clutch disk or it's metal surfaces, else the axis will slip.??
There is another set of flat needle bearings too.? You can easily find the lower one when you remove the clutch knob.? But you cannot get to the upper flat needle bearing, unless you remove the worm.? That upper needle bearing is hidden under the large ring gear disk.? If you do open that up, be sure to put the facing steel race washers (one thin, one thick) in the right order: the thin one goes below the flat upper needle bearing, and the thicker in on the top.? (Strange that it matters, but it does to ensure the upper thick race washer seats centrally on the centering boss.).?
Even new replacement cylinder needle bearings I've bought were too gummed up to roll...they needed a good spray of WD40 or other lube to get them rolling freely.? So did the bearings in a used CG11 I got years ago.? All needed some automotive type gum remover, then re lubrication.? ??
Have fun, health, and good luck,
Michael
Hi Kenn,?
Both my Losmandy GM8 and G11 do this even with a leveled tripod and a scope with no finders, guiders, cameras etc. just the OTA in the rings. The mounts always behave the same way and favor the same side regardless of OTA or altitude. I have even tried to eliminate this slight imbalance by ensuring that the counterweights have their locking screws pointed down and without DEC DIN cable plugged in and tried flipping the saddle 180 degrees.?
I have no idea why it works like this but it doesn't seem to hurt the guided or unguided PE so I ignore it and just get the balance as close to even as possible. But even so it is not critical for imaging or visual using the mount as it was designed in PUSH-TO mode as long as you are reasonably close. When observing visually about 95% of the time I have a 1.25" eyepiece in the diagonal so there is virtually no balance change between eyepieces even when moving from a 24mm Panoptic to a 35mm Panoptic the scope needs no rebalancing.?
--
Chip Louie - Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware
|
Re: Bright Star disappeared from list despite being well above horizon
>>>I just want to assure you that those things are NOT factors.
If what you are describing is accurate (i'm not saying it isn't, but assuming no errors in how you are building your model, etc.) this is literally the only way your gotos can consistently be off.
There isn't any other obvious explanation. Is it possible there's a diode blown somewhere or something else? sure it's possible, but the likelyhood if it *only* affecting your gotos under specific circumstances is very low.?
I encourage you to try the other post i mentioned
I just was talking to someone who assured me up and down their location was 100% accurate, checked their gps, etc. and it turns out they had a + and - sign reversed
|
Re: Bright Star disappeared from list despite being well above horizon
Thanks, Brian, but no, that is not it.? I even did a factory reset just to be sure nothing was stored that was interfering in some way.? I have checked and re-checked location data -online, with my wife's smartphone GPS app, and also with a Losmandy-supplied GPS unit, and it was all the same, and I set up at the exact same spot every time I'm out.? I've entered and re-entered that data just to be sure.? I use UTC, not local time, and have checked and re-checked that too.? At some point, you have to be 100% confident!? And from the number of "pointing" issue threads I've seen about Losmandy mounts here and elsewhere, well, I realize a good bit of it could be user error, but certainly not all of it.? But thanks for the suggestion in any event.? I just want to assure you that those things are NOT factors.
|
Hi Kenn,?
Both my Losmandy GM8 and G11 do this even with a leveled tripod and a scope with no finders, guiders, cameras etc. just the OTA in the rings. The mounts always behave the same way and favor the same side regardless of OTA or altitude. I have even tried to eliminate this slight imbalance by ensuring that the counterweights have their locking screws pointed down and without DEC DIN cable plugged in and tried flipping the saddle 180 degrees.?
I have no idea why it works like this but it doesn't seem to hurt the guided or unguided PE so I ignore it and just get the balance as close to even as possible. But even so it is not critical for imaging or visual using the mount as it was designed in PUSH-TO mode as long as you are reasonably close. When observing visually about 95% of the time I have a 1.25" eyepiece in the diagonal so there is virtually no balance change between eyepieces even when moving from a 24mm Panoptic to a 35mm Panoptic the scope needs no rebalancing.?
--
Chip Louie - Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware
|
I can see this has been discussed a lot here, and am going to take some time to read some of the threads on it later, but just wanted to add my voice, and could not find any discussion later than 2017 (doing a search just for "pointing.")? I'm sure there are others who've had problems with pointing since then.
I have a GM811G.? As far as I can tell I've done everything according to the book (and videos and some discussions I've read on Cloudy Nights and elsewhere).? Checked battery.? Did factory reset and re-entered parameters just to be sure that wasn't a factor.? I use UTC, not local time.? Made sure balance was good.? Checked and double-checked leveling with CWD.? Got great polar alignment with PoleMaster.? Did the modeling routine according to the directions.
And pointing was still off - sometimes way off.? Went to a catalog object and it was not even in my camera viewfinder screen.? To give an example, after modeling, I slewed back to Arcturus to focus, then slewed to Spica, and it was not nearly centered.? Did an alignment on Spica.? Slewed back to Arcturus, and IT was now well off center.? Did the alignment routine on Arcturus, then slewed to Mizar.? WAY off!? Aligned on Mizar (yes, according to the prescribed routine of Menu> Align > Bright Star > Center > Align > Alignment.? Went back to Arcturus, and it was still off.
The only way I'm currently able to center objects I want to image is by slewing to a brlght star somewhere near the object, performing the alignment routine, then slewing to the object.? Even then, I sometimes need to make slight corrections to center the object a little.? When I bought this mount (hardly used, practically like new), I was had high expectations to be done dealing with this sort of thing (and we won't get into tracking, which is good, but not as good as I'd hoped, even with good seeing).? I do really like the mount, and just hope I'll be able to do something to get it to point (and maybe track) better.
So, I have absolutely no idea where to go from here.? Just hoping something will "click" that either I'm doing wrong, or the Gemini 2 is doing wrong.
|
Re: Bright Star disappeared from list despite being well above horizon
Assuming you are building a pointing model correctly, and your gotos on the same side of pier are still off, 99% of the time it's bad date/time and/or location information
also the majority of the time when people say "my date/time and location is correct, i am 100% confident" it ends up being one of those values is off
Just a follow-up.? Two nights ago was a night from hell, like all of us have now and then.? Just could not get good pointing and tracking, despite very good seeing, and finally gave up after about 2 hours of having my patience tested.? Last night was much better, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to spend some time reading the "pointing woes" threads here.? What I've been having to do is align on a star close to the object I want to image, and then going to that object.? Otherwise, pointing is not real great most of the time.? I slewed to Denebola, which was not centered real well, but ok, then tried to slew to M65, which is right nearby, and it wasn't even in my first camera shot (at ISO 6400, just to see if the object was there).? Slewed back to Denebola, which was no longer centered, did an alignment on it, then went back to M65, and that worked.
And once again, Sirius was no longer on the BSL, even tho' it was still well above the horizon.
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Re: Bright Star disappeared from list despite being well above horizon
Just a follow-up.? Two nights ago was a night from hell, like all of us have now and then.? Just could not get good pointing and tracking, despite very good seeing, and finally gave up after about 2 hours of having my patience tested.? Last night was much better, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to spend some time reading the "pointing woes" threads here.? What I've been having to do is align on a star close to the object I want to image, and then going to that object.? Otherwise, pointing is not real great most of the time.? I slewed to Denebola, which was not centered real well, but ok, then tried to slew to M65, which is right nearby, and it wasn't even in my first camera shot (at ISO 6400, just to see if the object was there).? Slewed back to Denebola, which was no longer centered, did an alignment on it, then went back to M65, and that worked.
And once again, Sirius was no longer on the BSL, even tho' it was still well above the horizon.
|
While I can see Astroshed's Newtonian does achieve balance in the vertical position, am I the only one who notices his focuser/eyepiece winds up in a potentially unusable position? (Basically CWD the focuser appears to be under the scope.)
I'm all for better balancing, and I do my best. But I want to see how I can improve it.
Rotating my scope may well not be feasible since I use a smaller refractor, and my focuser is limiting in what could be done. (Basically impossible, without major revisions. But that is a personal problem.)
I'll play with these thoughts of balance on the vertical. And it goes against my common sense to be rigging up ropes and pulleys.
I have to lug my equipment out, and then back in every night I use it (which is almost every clear night.) So my thoughts are that any balancing tricks have to be more along the lines of highly mobile, and of a fixed nature.
But a lot of it is, in my honest opinion, not too critical as my "Payload" is 15.6 pounds of photographic Astro equipment from the clamp up, including my bar.
And this is riding my GM811G HD mount, which we know has a 50 pound Photographic Instrument weight rating. Which is a capacity ~3.33 times my load. So it is quite a bit stronger than my fly weight load it bares.
I'm interested in these better balancing ideas, because I can see room for improvement in my PHD2 graph. But I really only put faith in the Photographic results.
Interesting topic though.
--
SonnyE
(I suggest viewed in full screen)
|
David C. Partridge
Kenn
Michael Herman
Paul Kanevsky
Chip Louie