Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Chip,
That's a very interesting observation (that the spring washer orientation may not matter much).?? There are a lot of experiments that are possible... just not enough time (and nights) to really run all the evaluations.
I think that once the worm is tightly confined axially, and the bearings are high quality, you only see the quality of the worm effect on the PE.??
I was shooting Saturn last night on a CG11, at f/30 (12 inch f/10 Meade SCT, with ASI224MC camera).? The promised (clear dark skies prediction) of excellent seeing was not realized...and there was too much moisture and haze.? But though the image quality was not great, the image essentially filled the 1900 pixel wide imager chip.? I had very little PE (but it was not zero) to cope with.?
Here is a final processed image.? This was at f/10 but rescaled up and adjusted after stacking (autostakkert3).
All the best, Michael
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:50 AM Chip Louie < chiplouie@...> wrote: Hi Michael,
My original layout 2-piece worm block straight drive G11 worked very well with two Bellevue springs arranged with the small ends facing each other. I got my lowest most consistent measured PE with this configuration.?
Once I updated to the tucked motors and Gen II OPWs a couple years ago and after testing I didn't want to touch it because it matched the 2-piece setup PE. I have had Scott update the G11 again adding the spring preload mod and have not tested it again but will do so once I baseline the mount again.
--
Chip Louie - Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Hi Michael,
My original layout 2-piece worm block straight drive G11 worked very well with two Bellevue springs arranged with the small ends facing each other. I got my lowest most consistent measured PE with this configuration.?
Once I updated to the tucked motors and Gen II OPWs a couple years ago and after testing I didn't want to touch it because it matched the 2-piece setup PE. I have had Scott update the G11 again adding the spring preload mod and have not tested it again but will do so once I baseline the mount again.
--
Chip Louie - Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Thanks Micheal.
John Hobbs
hobbs_john@...
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Herman <mherman346@...>
To: Losmandy_users < [email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2019 5:19 pm
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] How is the belleville washer solution working?
Pardon the very rough sketch on my cellphone!
I hope the curve of the Belleville washer is meaningful.? The larger outer edge should push on the (sliding) bearing. That bearing inner rotating part pushes left on the larger shoulder of the worm (1/4th inch shaft inserts into the R4 worm bearing).??
There is not really much room for the Belleville washer. It is already made very thin, though relaxed it is cupped. When you actually install it, it will be squashed pretty flat.? It's just that it's outer cup will keep the sliding bearing always pushing on the worm.
(Chip: for that reason (no extra space), you probably cannot put, and really don't need, another flat washer between the Belleville washer and the bearing block seat.)
All the best,
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 1:19 PM John Hobbs via Groups.Io <hobbs_john= [email protected]> wrote:
Michael:
From these posts I am confused as to which way the Bellville washer goes. Please post or show me a drawing of the block with the washer and how it points; small end pointing to the Oldham coupler or away from it?
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Herman < mherman346@...>
To: Losmandy_users < [email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2019 11:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] How is the belleville washer solution working?
Very nice idea. Dremel (or a drill) to the rescue.
I certainly had that original sketch of the Belleville washer pointing the wrong way.? I thought I showed both orientations and admitted I hadn't decided which was best, but thought I'd fixed the drawing in later PDFs.? The pointy inner section must point away from the gearbox side...it has to only press out the outer sleeve of the bearing.
Anyway... write me separately if you need some of the Belleville washers, as I have a small stock of them.? I also have friction clutch disks if you need those too!
(One thing I don't have is a gadget to clear the darn hazy skies around San Jose.? I shouldn't complain though since it isn't raining...)
Very best,
Michael
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 7:30 PM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: Thank you for figuring that tool out! Something like this was rattling around inside my head but hadn't fallen out yet.
I didn't have any washers when I was trying to figure out Michael's original drawings. Definitely outer race loaded makes more sense.
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Pardon the very rough sketch on my cellphone!
I hope the curve of the Belleville washer is meaningful.? The larger outer edge should push on the (sliding) bearing. That bearing inner rotating part pushes left on the larger shoulder of the worm (1/4th inch shaft inserts into the R4 worm bearing).??
There is not really much room for the Belleville washer. It is already made very thin, though relaxed it is cupped. When you actually install it, it will be squashed pretty flat.? It's just that it's outer cup will keep the sliding bearing always pushing on the worm.
(Chip: for that reason (no extra space), you probably cannot put, and really don't need, another flat washer between the Belleville washer and the bearing block seat.)
All the best,
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 1:19 PM John Hobbs via Groups.Io <hobbs_john= [email protected]> wrote:
Michael:
From these posts I am confused as to which way the Bellville washer goes. Please post or show me a drawing of the block with the washer and how it points; small end pointing to the Oldham coupler or away from it?
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Herman < mherman346@...>
To: Losmandy_users < [email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2019 11:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] How is the belleville washer solution working?
Very nice idea. Dremel (or a drill) to the rescue.
I certainly had that original sketch of the Belleville washer pointing the wrong way.? I thought I showed both orientations and admitted I hadn't decided which was best, but thought I'd fixed the drawing in later PDFs.? The pointy inner section must point away from the gearbox side...it has to only press out the outer sleeve of the bearing.
Anyway... write me separately if you need some of the Belleville washers, as I have a small stock of them.? I also have friction clutch disks if you need those too!
(One thing I don't have is a gadget to clear the darn hazy skies around San Jose.? I shouldn't complain though since it isn't raining...)
Very best,
Michael
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 7:30 PM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: Thank you for figuring that tool out! Something like this was rattling around inside my head but hadn't fallen out yet.
I didn't have any washers when I was trying to figure out Michael's original drawings. Definitely outer race loaded makes more sense.
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Michael:
From these posts I am confused as to which way the Bellville washer goes. Please post or show me a drawing of the block with the washer and how it points; small end pointing to the Oldham coupler or away from it?
John Hobbs
hobbs_john@...
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Herman <mherman346@...>
To: Losmandy_users < [email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2019 11:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io] How is the belleville washer solution working?
Very nice idea. Dremel (or a drill) to the rescue.
I certainly had that original sketch of the Belleville washer pointing the wrong way.? I thought I showed both orientations and admitted I hadn't decided which was best, but thought I'd fixed the drawing in later PDFs.? The pointy inner section must point away from the gearbox side...it has to only press out the outer sleeve of the bearing.
Anyway... write me separately if you need some of the Belleville washers, as I have a small stock of them.? I also have friction clutch disks if you need those too!
(One thing I don't have is a gadget to clear the darn hazy skies around San Jose.? I shouldn't complain though since it isn't raining...)
Very best,
Michael
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 7:30 PM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: Thank you for figuring that tool out! Something like this was rattling around inside my head but hadn't fallen out yet.
I didn't have any washers when I was trying to figure out Michael's original drawings. Definitely outer race loaded makes more sense.
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
I forgot to mention one additional thing, a point of clarification on something Michael said:? on the Gen II OPW, even though there are screws in the OPW cover to 'fix' the bearing blocks in place, the holes in the cover are quite a bit bigger than the screw diameter which ends up allowing up to 2mm of lateral (axial) adjustment of the distance between bearing blocks.?
In retrospect I find that the new version of the OPW does not offer much over the 2-block design (taking care to make sure they are co-linear, e.g. using the cover as a guide), especially with the inaccessibility of the Oldham coupling with the cover installed in the OPW.? Note I do not have the SLW or tucked motor (i.e. still old school).
Keith
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Anthony,
I don't? know much about bike hubs but these are not bikes. The bearings are being rotated very slowly under almost no load and generally the worm bearings only get replaced when damaged by people? tinkering with the mount and when contamination becomes an issue for these bearings which are open to contamination due to the way they are positioned and used most often in an outdoor environment.? We know that dirty or damaged bearings can cause spikes in PE and that using better bearings can lower the PE noise floor in PHD2.?
These are miniature? bearings and decades of field experience IMO trumps books.??
--
Chip Louie - Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Nice work Keith!
I see no reason to add the Bellevue spring to my spring loaded Gen-II OPWs BUT in the interest of science and my own irrepressible need to break stuff that is working perfectly I am going to fit the Bellevue spring to my full house G11G. After inspecting the bearing block and checking the clearance behind the bearing I may add a flat washer to support the small end of the Bellevue spring cone on the shoulder of the bearing block.?
--
Chip Louie - Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Very nice idea. Dremel (or a drill) to the rescue.
I certainly had that original sketch of the Belleville washer pointing the wrong way.? I thought I showed both orientations and admitted I hadn't decided which was best, but thought I'd fixed the drawing in later PDFs.? The pointy inner section must point away from the gearbox side...it has to only press out the outer sleeve of the bearing.
Anyway... write me separately if you need some of the Belleville washers, as I have a small stock of them.? I also have friction clutch disks if you need those too!
(One thing I don't have is a gadget to clear the darn hazy skies around San Jose.? I shouldn't complain though since it isn't raining...)
Very best, Michael
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 7:30 PM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: Thank you for figuring that tool out! Something like this was rattling around inside my head but hadn't fallen out yet.
I didn't have any washers when I was trying to figure out Michael's original drawings. Definitely outer race loaded makes more sense.
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Thank you for figuring that tool out! Something like this was rattling around inside my head but hadn't fallen out yet.
I didn't have any washers when I was trying to figure out Michael's original drawings. Definitely outer race loaded makes more sense.
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Just a couple points on the Belleville washer mod:
- The design of the washer is such that the inner radius of the washer is quite a bit larger than the radius of the bearing inner race, so I don't see how the orientation with the 'apex' of the washer pointing toward the gearbox (to the left) can interact with the bearing inner race (unless you are using different washers than me, but mine look the same as in Michael's document).? In fact, in this orientation, the washer may not even compress since the thickness of the bearing shield is typically a bit less than the outer race, so it can match the shape of the bearing quite closely depending on what brand of bearing you have (I have Boca ABEC7).? I think the orientation being suggested here (apex away from the gearbox, to the right) is the only one that would work.
- In the past, I've sanded the inside of the bearing block, not the bearing.? However this time around I've done as suggested, and the gizmo I crafted out of nuts and bolts I had on hand, shown in the photos, made short work of the sanding (1500 and 2000 grit).
Keith ?
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Re: Losmandy G8 11 - problem moving North in DEC - backlash
Completely
Off Topic, but what ¡°guiding feature in Sharp Cap¡± ??
?
Not
that I can think of why I would want to guide on a planet ¨C Drift is good
when not doing Flats ¨C but I COULD use such guiding for something else..
Like, oh.. I don¡¯t know.. Guiding??
?
Derek
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of occativ43 via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019
9:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users_io]
Losmandy G8 11 - problem moving North in DEC - backlash
?
Brian you have helped me. You were a huge help with PHD2 and I thank
you.?
Even for doing imaging of planets the guiding feature of sharp cap goes in E/W
and South without a problem. But north is a problem.?
I didn't not think that this amount of backlash is normal.?
You help a lot of people and should be commended. Thank you again for all you
do.?
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
got it - i see the scale changed between the two
It would be great to see comparable without the mod if you have that
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:27 AM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: I am reviewing this on my phone right now, but both are with washers, better is with PEC on.
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
I am reviewing this on my phone right now, but both are with washers, better is with PEC on.
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
i'm confused by the comparison now
I thought we were looking at belleville washers on, belleville washers off
If I understand correctly, you are saying both these graphs are with the belleville mod, and one is with PEC ON and the other PEC OFF (as described by the file names too haha)
if so, then i'm not sure what conclusion to reach. PEC ON makes it worse?
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:48 AM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: Right click, view image and zoom in (Ctrl +)
Yes and I don't know why the 2.0 is higher after corrected? Maybe I could get a better worm, since some seem to think they vary? Maybe I need to change how I am creating the curve?
As a matter of clarity, first graph is corrected, second is before correction.
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Right click, view image and zoom in (Ctrl +)
Yes and I don't know why the 2.0 is higher after corrected? Maybe I could get a better worm, since some seem to think they vary? Maybe I need to change how I am creating the curve?
As a matter of clarity, first graph is corrected, second is before correction.
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Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Nice to read of your progress! I agree that polishing the small bearing OD by fine sandpaper is not much fun! But you only do that once per axis, and forever forget about it.
Then you just spend your nights imaging... more fun.
All the best, and congrats on your progress.
Michael
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 9:51 PM Brian Valente < bvalente@...> wrote: Thanks for uploading - those look promising. I am interested to see how it plays out over time.
I can't see the graph too well but it looks like the primary or secondary fundamental is higher? (the second bump)
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:28 PM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: Well, it seems like the bellevillle washer probably works!
I am awaiting a new gearbox, because threading the motor on and off so many time lead to the plastic threads pulling out of one side, but it held well enough to record these curves, PEC off, and PEC on:
I am hopeful not just because the bump around 3.0 is less that 1 arc sec, but because it has moved to slightly less than 3. This is new and different. It also did not grow throughout the evening, which I found on the first run of bearing replacement. Colder temps? Some chance that the blocks were not aligned exactly, (I found a burr on the worm bloc/cover that was tweaking the oldham coupler side block...)
Michael, that is awesome that you have gotten such tight RMS with adjusting the mechanics, but if I can be under 2 with PEC on, I'll guide away the rest. My SCT mirror moves a bit, so guiding is imperative for that anyways.
That bearing polishing bit is frustrating and slow...I am trying to figure out a faster way to do that.
Also, my theory about minor bearing damage is probably wrong. By the time I was finished smoothing the bearing so it would slide in the socket, I had installed and removed it enough times that it didn't feel perfectly smooth. So yes, they are fragile. However the results above show that, when properly preloaded, (I am assuming based on others' experience), this doesn't cause significant binding that exhibits in the PE curve, although it might show in the drift or other tiny bumps to the right of the frequency spectrum.
I will follow up again once I have the new gearbox installed and run another curve.
?
--
Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Thanks for uploading - those look promising. I am interested to see how it plays out over time.
I can't see the graph too well but it looks like the primary or secondary fundamental is higher? (the second bump)
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:28 PM Anthony Q < anthony@...> wrote: Well, it seems like the bellevillle washer probably works!
I am awaiting a new gearbox, because threading the motor on and off so many time lead to the plastic threads pulling out of one side, but it held well enough to record these curves, PEC off, and PEC on:
I am hopeful not just because the bump around 3.0 is less that 1 arc sec, but because it has moved to slightly less than 3. This is new and different. It also did not grow throughout the evening, which I found on the first run of bearing replacement. Colder temps? Some chance that the blocks were not aligned exactly, (I found a burr on the worm bloc/cover that was tweaking the oldham coupler side block...)
Michael, that is awesome that you have gotten such tight RMS with adjusting the mechanics, but if I can be under 2 with PEC on, I'll guide away the rest. My SCT mirror moves a bit, so guiding is imperative for that anyways.
That bearing polishing bit is frustrating and slow...I am trying to figure out a faster way to do that.
Also, my theory about minor bearing damage is probably wrong. By the time I was finished smoothing the bearing so it would slide in the socket, I had installed and removed it enough times that it didn't feel perfectly smooth. So yes, they are fragile. However the results above show that, when properly preloaded, (I am assuming based on others' experience), this doesn't cause significant binding that exhibits in the PE curve, although it might show in the drift or other tiny bumps to the right of the frequency spectrum.
I will follow up again once I have the new gearbox installed and run another curve.
?
-- Brian?
Brian Valente portfolio
|
Re: How is the belleville washer solution working?
Well, it seems like the bellevillle washer probably works!
I am awaiting a new gearbox, because threading the motor on and off so many time lead to the plastic threads pulling out of one side, but it held well enough to record these curves, PEC off, and PEC on:
I am hopeful not just because the bump around 3.0 is less that 1 arc sec, but because it has moved to slightly less than 3. This is new and different. It also did not grow throughout the evening, which I found on the first run of bearing replacement. Colder temps? Some chance that the blocks were not aligned exactly, (I found a burr on the worm bloc/cover that was tweaking the oldham coupler side block...)
Michael, that is awesome that you have gotten such tight RMS with adjusting the mechanics, but if I can be under 2 with PEC on, I'll guide away the rest. My SCT mirror moves a bit, so guiding is imperative for that anyways.
That bearing polishing bit is frustrating and slow...I am trying to figure out a faster way to do that.
Also, my theory about minor bearing damage is probably wrong. By the time I was finished smoothing the bearing so it would slide in the socket, I had installed and removed it enough times that it didn't feel perfectly smooth. So yes, they are fragile. However the results above show that, when properly preloaded, (I am assuming based on others' experience), this doesn't cause significant binding that exhibits in the PE curve, although it might show in the drift or other tiny bumps to the right of the frequency spectrum.
I will follow up again once I have the new gearbox installed and run another curve.
?
|
Michael Herman
Chip Louie