Re: G11 Guding PHD2 rms number High G1
Swapped RA Gearbox to Dec,,,,,only change I see is the periodicity of RA looks more
like a saw tooth, Still have RA RMS at 1.6
Also removed all end play on RA and slacked up the worm to have a little
Backlash.....No Change?? RA RMS at 1.6
Today tear down of RA except where the shaft goes into the mount. Hesitant
to take those bearings out so just cleaning them and relube
All bearings look and feel good. Large thrust no play or rough? spots.
I found to other guys on CN that sent their mounts back to LM and Scott replaced the motors
and viola.....I have the older motors non high torque,,,,,not sure what the next step is., Maybe
send to LM
Greg
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Re: Help with DEC backlash/jumpy guiding
Hi Magnus,
When you moved to another object, or did a meridian flip, the problem went away or got better.??
So I consider 2 possible causes.? One is the DEC of the mount, and the second is the guide scope/guide camera.??
If you are using an OAG, that will solve the 2nd problem and I only guide that way.? Any slight change in the guide camera or guide? scope position will glitch your autoguiding, and due to the weight of the autoguide camera cable, that force changes with RA/time, and with meridian flip.??
Or, as you mentioned, it could be the mount DEC axis too...as you said a possible? cause of the trouble in your last description.?? That is: I think you must have a slight DEC axis physical hysteresis in the worm mounting.??
When you moved to another object, or did a meridian flip, the problem went away or got better.??
If you think about it, in a perfectly polar aligned system, the RA worm is constantly moving toward positive RA, which may keep a force on one worm bearing.? But the DEC worm should not be moving (ignoring refraction of the air, and seeing).? The DEC axis can wiggle.? And PHD will have a time lag or overshoot trying to compensate for that DEC hysteresis.? ?
If you have a slight I mis-balance in DEC, its ring gear will be pulled against its worm gear, pressing the worm either left or right against one of the worm bearings...the other worm bearing is more loose.? Over the night, or pointing to other objects, that misbalance changes net force on the DEC worm.? The net force will be a function of the RA angle and DEC axis angles.? (The force on the RA worm is a function of the RA angle and the polar axis angle, but not the DEC angle.)??
Bottom line, in the Losmandy original design, the DEC worm is not kept in a condition of constant constraint during the night of imaging...even if you had a hanging weight wrapped on it.?
Note that the highly rated Ovision worm system designed in a Belleville washer for this purpose...Losmandy did not.??
As the night temperatures change, the brass or stainless steel worm is going to expand or contract differently than the aluminum holding the worm blocks, and the aluminum worm blocks themselves. So if the system compressing the worm bearings was "tight" at one time/ temperature, it can become loose at another time/ temperature.??
Hysteresis might be curable in PHD2, and it might be tolerable with a wide angle, short FL scope image.? But if you are using a long FL scope like an SCT, it probably is worth trying to fix the hysteresis mechanically.
You mention the possible benefit of a Belleville washer and that you have not found these.? I have a stock of them for the Losmandy worm bearings (and the Orion Synta Atlas too...same problem).??
Since they are flat, they easily mail from US to international destinations in a letter.? For?$5,?I can send you 3 of them, and you have 1 for RA, one for DEC, and one spare (though they never should break).??
You will find installation instructions in our Files section under my name.??
Some simple hand polishing is required with very fine sandpaper or emery cloth to polish down the perimeter of the far worm bearing, so it can slide in its worm block cylinder.? Pulling out the rear bearing can be a challenge but I show how to form a simple puller to do that.??
You lube that cylinder and assemble the washer behind the bearing, pressing the blocks together so the spring constantly pushes the bearing on the worm. That keeps the worm in place, and keeps the Oldham coupler pieces together (which you must do or that alone will cause glitches!), and also keeps both worm bearings "compressed" so they keep lowest rumble preformance.
To get the lowest RA PE about 1 arcsec native PE (no PEC), I found a benefit from replacing my worm bearings too.? I used ABEC7 rated ones, under $20?in the US.? David Partridge in the UK found great results with ABEC5 rated ones he got in Europe.? ?We both used the brass Losmandy worm, but David used original 2 worm blocks and I used an OPW.??
Wow...a lot of writing at 5AM!
Hope you solve your issues...we all await your images!?
Michael?
?
Hi!
Yes, I'm interested in working on the mount, finding causes that I can eliminate. I already do as you say, run latest PHD2 and use GA etc. The major problem here, is that it is intermittent... yesterday, I posted this in some frustration - had DEC wildly swinging between +1.5" and -1.5". Then I posted, moved the scope, tested south at the meridian, did meridian flips and tested, moved around, and then, back to same object (NGC2403) and now I had less then 0.5" DEC swings.... calm and nice. Very good guiding quality, given that I don't use PEC yet.
So I'm after the possible mechanical causes. I know of the worm gear slack, that can be fixed or limited with a belville washer (yet have to find one of those). But is there anything else I should look at, in this situation?
Magnus
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Re: Help with DEC backlash/jumpy guiding
Hi!
Yes, I'm interested in working on the mount, finding causes that I can eliminate. I already do as you say, run latest PHD2 and use GA etc. The major problem here, is that it is intermittent... yesterday, I posted this in some frustration - had DEC wildly swinging between +1.5" and -1.5". Then I posted, moved the scope, tested south at the meridian, did meridian flips and tested, moved around, and then, back to same object (NGC2403) and now I had less then 0.5" DEC swings.... calm and nice. Very good guiding quality, given that I don't use PEC yet.
So I'm after the possible mechanical causes. I know of the worm gear slack, that can be fixed or limited with a belville washer (yet have to find one of those). But is there anything else I should look at, in this situation?
Magnus
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Re: Help with DEC backlash/jumpy guiding
That's definitely a possibility too
My experience is pretty much all Losmandy mounts have a certain amount of DEC backlash so my thought is it's easier to first make sure the guiding is set up properly before deciding it's in the gearing and fiddling with that.
B
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ASCOM Guiding of Gemini 2 Mount
Hello Everyone,
Thank you very much for adding me to the group.? I am an owner of a brand new Losmandy G11 GT mount with Gemini 2 hand controller, and am looking to connect the mount to my laptop computer for pulse guiding via ASCOM.? I have downloaded what I believe is the proper driver from the ASCOM website, and have connected my autoguider to the laptop via USB, but even though I attach the laptop to the mount control panel via a separate USB cable, I do not seem to be able to establish full communications between the mount, and the laptop.? For example, I cannot control the mount movement via the laptop.
I was wondering if someone might suggest a proper connection path between the laptop, my Starshoot Autoguider, and the G11 control panel?? In PHD2, I am also not certain of the settings (Gemini or "On Camera"), such that I can guide properly.? I would welcome any suggestions there too.? Thank you all very much.
Clear skies,
Eric Bowen?
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Re: Help with DEC backlash/jumpy guiding
I¡¯m not sure that agree that it¡¯s a PHD problem. He¡¯s talking about severe DEC backlash. This sounds like a mount issue.
Rob
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From: Losmandy_users@... on behalf of bvalente@... [Losmandy_users]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 3:20:58 PM
To: Losmandy_users@...
Subject: [Losmandy_users] Re: Help with DEC backlash/jumpy guiding
?
?
HI Magnus
you should probably post this to the PHD group since it sounds like a guiding issue
couple thoughts:
1. make sure you are on the latest phd2 if you aren't already doing that, not the original PHD (not sure which you are using)?
2. set the PVC in you G11 to 0
3. once you calibrate in PHD, use the guiding assistant, do at least 5 minutes on the assistant, and follow all the recommendations for changing settings
4. use backlash compensation and try starting with 500ms, it should adjust on its own to find the right amount
B
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Re: Help with DEC backlash/jumpy guiding
HI Magnus
you should probably post this to the PHD group since it sounds like a guiding issue
couple thoughts:
1. make sure you are on the latest phd2 if you aren't already doing that, not the original PHD (not sure which you are using)?
2. set the PVC in you G11 to 0
3. once you calibrate in PHD, use the guiding assistant, do at least 5 minutes on the assistant, and follow all the recommendations for changing settings
4. use backlash compensation and try starting with 500ms, it should adjust on its own to find the right amount
B
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Help with DEC backlash/jumpy guiding
Hi! Lately, I'm experiencing bad guiding in DEC on mu G11. It's OK in RA and at times also in DEC, but unpredictable (so far). Good means a RMA of about 0.7 arc secs. Bad means RMS over 1.5. I use PHD2, and when measuring backlash there, I get values ranging from 16.6 to over 70. So there is a lot of questions here - how can it vary so much, and where does it stem from? I've got the blocks into which the worm gear goes pressed together, to there is no identifiable slack there that, no wiggle back and forth. I've adjusted the worm gear in relation to the gear wheel, so it is close as I dare have it. What else can cause these variations and backlash? The DEC gearbox sounds a lot - far louder than the RA. Could that be a source of backlash and instability? All suggestions very welcome. Magnus
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Re: Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
Thanks, Dave . . . good point!
Michael, you may have hit on the problem. Since the drives work fine in Sidereal mode, and since the Gemini looks fine until the mount needs to actually move, the problem could very well be with the encoders. I'll look into that this coming week.
- Bob
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Re: G11 Guding PHD2 rms number High G1
Hi Greg,
Some actions to try:
I think you said your RA has the high precision Ovision worm system.? So Chip's comment about the brass Losmandy worm does not apply to that.? I don't have an Ovision worm but I understand that has a Belleville spring washer at the far end... likely there is an adjustment there to compress the spring ...it may need adjustment.? The worm must show no side to side play along the worm axis, as you wiggle the scope about the RA axis.
The second issue to evaluate is that the worm axis must also be in the same plane as the ring gear.? Some people had to shim the worm mounting to get that exactly level with, and the correct height, as the center of the ring gear.? See if you can assess that.??
The other thing to examine is to get the gearbox shaft to be exactly on axis with the worm axis...that makes the Oldham coupler essentially not move... and you want that to not move except to rotate.??
At that point the remaining PE is the quality of the worm, and the worm bearings.? There are terrific high quality R4 worm bearings of ABEC7 rating for about $20?or so each, at BocaBearings.com.?
To try and get the flaky Gemini1 to connect better, get the excellent USB to Serial adaptor made by ATEN, from their website ATEN.com, ~$20.? If that fails, you might have a damaged Gemini1 serial port chip...they can go bad, but are repairable.??
I suggest you completely balance your scope in both RA and DEC.?
To measure your PE accurately, put your guide scope on the main imaging scope...not the small 50mm guide scope? (the guide scope mounting could be shifting, etc).? Use PHD2 with your autoguide camera on the main scope to drift align your polar axis accurately.? Then measure your PE with autoguiding off, using about 3 x 8 minute worm periods data in a PHD2 log file.? Read the PHD2 log file into a program like? PECprep.exe. That has the settings for the G11 built in...just select that mount.? That will show the frequency components of the PE, and tell if it is the worm, the bearings, etc..
see a link to that here:
Have fun...you will get there.
Best,?
Michael?
On Nov 23, 2017 2:27 PM, " chiplouie@... [Losmandy_users]" < Losmandy_users@...> wrote:
?
Hi Greg,
A couple of thoughts on your process. You are not likely to get very low tracking error numbers with the stainless steel worms, you must have brass worms for the best precision and tracking. You must have some worm gear backlash between the worm gear and the worm wheel on RA, DEC is often times better with a bit less but in any case you cannot just set the backlash in the heat of the day and expect the backlash to remain the same. As the air temps drop so will the worm gear clearance, set your worm gear backlash in the COLD.?
Also none of the felt backlash can come from movement of the worm gear on the worm gear axis, it MUST have s slight preload, there can be no freedom between the gearbox output and worm gear input shaft, the coupler must be tight and free of any play. Check your worm gears for end play, it should be zero or darned near it, if not adjust it by compressing the worm gear bearing mounts inward while setting worm gear mesh. This is very difficult and the reason the Losmandy OPWs were designed.?
You may just have a less than ideal worm on the RA, swap it with the DEC worm and retest. It may be that your DEC worm is better. Nobody cares how well your DEC error is, if you have a good polar alignment the DEC axis should not move at all. Swap the worm gears and retest, this may solve the basic issue, the rest is just adjustment.?
I hope this helps! Happy Thanksgiving!
Chip ?
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Re: G11 Guding PHD2 rms number High G1
Hi Greg,
A couple of thoughts on your process. You are not likely to get very low tracking error numbers with the stainless steel worms, you must have brass worms for the best precision and tracking. You must have some worm gear backlash between the worm gear and the worm wheel on RA, DEC is often times better with a bit less but in any case you cannot just set the backlash in the heat of the day and expect the backlash to remain the same. As the air temps drop so will the worm gear clearance, set your worm gear backlash in the COLD.?
Also none of the felt backlash can come from movement of the worm gear on the worm gear axis, it MUST have s slight preload, there can be no freedom between the gearbox output and worm gear input shaft, the coupler must be tight and free of any play. Check your worm gears for end play, it should be zero or darned near it, if not adjust it by compressing the worm gear bearing mounts inward while setting worm gear mesh. This is very difficult and the reason the Losmandy OPWs were designed.?
You may just have a less than ideal worm on the RA, swap it with the DEC worm and retest. It may be that your DEC worm is better. Nobody cares how well your DEC error is, if you have a good polar alignment the DEC axis should not move at all. Swap the worm gears and retest, this may solve the basic issue, the rest is just adjustment.?
I hope this helps! Happy Thanksgiving!
Chip ?
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Re: G11 Guding PHD2 rms number High G1
Forgot to mention G11 is pier mounted
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G11 Guding PHD2 rms number High G1
Recently Purchased a used G11 with G1 controller
I gave up on using the RS232 interface....it will connect at times others it will not,. Tried 2 different Apdapters USB to 9 pin, Cable is sound, At the point were I probably will trade in for a G2. Cmos battery replaced. Was reading 2.75vdc now 3.25vdc Cleaned all connections with contact cleaner. Windows 7
I have owned many mounts and have stripped down and tuned many, sucessfully
I have been working with the G11 for 1 weeks trying to match RMS phd2 spec of <.9 rms Total of my former Sirius mount with belt drive with the same payload of 15lbs
Payload 15lbs guide scope 50mm SSAG Camera PHD2 Polar Alignment within 2 arc min of pole set by drift PHD2 Using ST-4 port for guiding since rs232 flakey,,,
What have I done.,
Put bolts on gear box cases since 2 of the plastic rivets were broken and causing flexure with the motor to gearbox . Did both RA and Dec Gears look fine visually
Adjusted worms on both RA and Dec so virtually no backlash or end play exist ( a small bit of endplay ovison) Ovision OPW gear BTW on RA. both work freely by hand but no binding. I used a feeler guage to set worm spacings on RA and Dec. .030 ra .012 dec
Checked large RA ring gear for any damage....looks great,.
A bit east heavy RA ....
Other than thrust bearings not sure what is left to do to improve guiding performance. I ran 3 worm cycles guiding output disabled and get about 8 to 10 PTPeak PE on the RA
Number I get PHD2
1.35 RMS RA .87? ?RMS Dec
Ill post files in my folder soon?
Thanks for any help
Greg
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Re: Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
Happy Thanksgiving, all.
Thanks, David, for explaining that the Gemini system only measures changes in motor position, that it does not know its exact position.? ?
I am wondering if Bob has some contamination or fogging of the optical encoder in his motor assembly.?? Bob....if you switch RA and DEC motors, does the problem move from RA to DEC?? If so points to the motor assembly...not the Gemini.? ?
I have found at least one case in the past where an optical encoder's clear plastic disk (with black opaque lines printed on them) did fog up over time... if so the Gemini will get wrong values transmitted and calculations will be all wrong, and inconsistent.
Hope you resolve the trouble soon.
Michael
?
The G1 and G2 have no idea whether the mount is at the CWD position or where it is actually pointing at any time, as there are no sensors in the mount to tell them that. The encoders on the motors only provide data on how much the motor has turned, and therefore where the mount is supposed to be pointing based on an initial assumption of where the mount was when the controller was powered on.
Dave
From: Losmandy_users@... [mailto:Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 23 November 2017 13:28
To: Losmandy_users@...
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users] Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
Thanks Paul, Michael,and Don for the comments and suggestions. Here are a few responses:
1. I'm using only the HC, no PC.
2. Right! EST - 5 hrs
3. This problem started with my original ver 1.01. When I inserted then 1.05 EPROM with great expectations, the problem remained.
4. When doing the original alignment, the movement of the RA axis is only about 5deg from CWD position. When I see it stop so soon, I know it's going to be a disaster.
5. I've tried moving the mount all the way to the alignment Bright Star and the hitting Align, and then doing a GoTo, but no luck. I get either a meaningless GoTo movement, or a message saying that the object is below the horizon. The mount has no idea where it is.
6. I haven't tried the Park suggestion yet. I'll try that when I get home on Sunday.
There seems to be 2 problems going on at once. First, it doesn't seem to pay attention to the Home CWD inputs, so it doesn't know where it is or where to go, and second, it shuts down the RA movement after about two seconds. On top of that, I'm not getting all the Bright Stars, but that could be related to problem one.
More suggestions and thought are welcomed!
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving!
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
The G1 and G2 have no idea whether the mount is at the CWD position or where it is actually pointing at any time, as there are no sensors in the mount to tell them that. The encoders on the motors only provide data on how much the motor has turned, and therefore where the mount is supposed to be pointing based on an initial assumption of where the mount was when the controller was powered on.
Dave
From: Losmandy_users@... [mailto:Losmandy_users@...]
Sent: 23 November 2017 13:28
To: Losmandy_users@...
Subject: Re: [Losmandy_users] Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
Thanks Paul, Michael,and Don for the comments and suggestions. Here are a few responses:
1. I'm using only the HC, no PC.
2. Right! EST - 5 hrs
3. This problem started with my original ver 1.01. When I inserted then 1.05 EPROM with great expectations, the problem remained.
4. When doing the original alignment, the movement of the RA axis is only about 5deg from CWD position. When I see it stop so soon, I know it's going to be a disaster.
5. I've tried moving the mount all the way to the alignment Bright Star and the hitting Align, and then doing a GoTo, but no luck. I get either a meaningless GoTo movement, or a message saying that the object is below the horizon. The mount has no idea where it is.
6. I haven't tried the Park suggestion yet. I'll try that when I get home on Sunday.
There seems to be 2 problems going on at once. First, it doesn't seem to pay attention to the Home CWD inputs, so it doesn't know where it is or where to go, and second, it shuts down the RA movement after about two seconds. On top of that, I'm not getting all the Bright Stars, but that could be related to problem one.
More suggestions and thought are welcomed!
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving!
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
Thanks Paul, Michael,and Don for the comments and suggestions. Here are a few responses:
1. I'm using only the HC, no PC. 2. Right! EST - 5 hrs 3. This problem started with my original ver 1.01. ?When I inserted then 1.05 EPROM with great expectations, the problem remained. 4. When doing the original alignment, the movement of the RA axis is only about 5deg from CWD position. When I see it stop so soon, I know it's going to be a disaster. 5. I've tried moving the mount all the way to the alignment Bright Star and the hitting Align, and then doing a GoTo, but no luck. I get either a meaningless GoTo movement, or a message saying that the object is below the horizon. The mount has no idea where it is. 6. I haven't tried the Park suggestion yet. I'll try that ?when I get home on Sunday.
There seems to be 2 problems going on at once. First, it doesn't seem to pay attention to the Home CWD inputs, so it doesn't know where it is or where to go, and second, it shuts down the RA movement after about two seconds. On top of that, I'm not getting all the Bright Stars, but that could be related to problem one.
More suggestions and thought are welcomed!
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving! Bob
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Re: Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
Bob,
One thing to check is have the mount park in the CWD position to confirm it stops at the correct position. If not, then after parking turn off the mount and move the DEC shaft to the CWD position. I had a friend who was having trouble about a decade ago and I couldn't figure out what was wrong. All the settings were correct. Then I noticed that in the menu I could park CWD. Tried it and the park position was about 30¡ã off. Once I powered off and moved to the CWD position, all was cured.
Don
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----- Original Message ----- From: "rcwolpert@... [Losmandy_users]" <Losmandy_users@...> To: <Losmandy_users@...> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:47 PM Subject: [Losmandy_users] Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements Perhaps someone here has an idea or two that would help me.
I have a GM-8 with Gemini 1 that worked flawlessly from when I purchased it in 2006 until 2015 when I had to pack up the mount for a move from the west to east coast two years ago. I¡¯m now ready to use it again and I¡¯ve come across an interesting problem.
When I boot up (counterweight down aiming north, etc), everything starts off normally:
Correct Mount ¨C> GM-8
Correct date yymm.dd
Correct time (UT)
Correct Longitude W 80 deg 33 min
Correct Latitude + 27 deg 45 min
Time Zone is correct - 4 hours for EDT
Then the problem starts when it asks for alignment
1) not all the Bright Stars are available, even those that are currently high in the sky, Vega, Deneb, etc.
2) the first alignment GoTo is meaningless ¨C nowhere close to the selected Bright Star
3) any further GoTo is meaningless, often showing visible targets as being below the horizon
4) The RA movement of the mount is very minimal, as if any command to that drive motor is turned off almost immediately.
However, in Sidereal mode, the slewing, centering and tracking commands are all normal, with the mount pointing wherever I want it to go. So the cables and drive motors are working normally.
So far I¡¯ve:
1. Changed the CMOS battery. The new one provides over 3V. ~3.2V
2. I¡¯ve update the EPROM to Ver. 1.05 and that boots normally.
3. I¡¯ve done a DEFAULT RESET to Losmandy defaults.
4. I¡¯ve put in all the necessary entry items and double checked to be sure of their accuracy.
5. I¡¯ve spoken to Russell at Losmandy and they are not sure what the problem could be.
4. I¡¯ve checked the voltage from the power source and it is 13.2V. I¡¯ve checked the power cable and the same voltage is getting to the Gemini 1.
The problem still remains ¨C loss of some Bright Stars and meaningless movements of the mount for alignment and GoTo¡¯s.
Any ideas? This one has me stumped.
Thanks,
Bob
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Re: Need Help with Gemini 1 Movements
I have shared the same unwelcome experiences too.
My advice is try this.
Leave the Gemini1 disconnected from any computer.? Why: There is a Gemini.net checkbox that allows the PC to send "default" configuration to the Gemini as soon as it connects.? If the computee default is off (say left over from the East coast), this has the chance to overwrite your settings in the Gemini unit itself.
Cold boot.? This zeros all internal T-pointing values.
The Gemini soft ware seems to have no notion of CWD...that is it should read the optical encoder at power up and know the scope position.? ?I know that seems impossible to believe,? but it's my experience.??
Therefore, no matter how far out of whack the first Align star is pointed, just use the hand controller to move (or I suppose slip the clutches would work too), and point the scope to that star.? Then press Enter a few times to Synch and Align to that 1st star.??
Usually, Gemini behaves sensibly after that.? ?
Anyway...such is my experience. ..maybe it will also solve your trouble too.
(Also, when you are going to connect to a computer,? make sure the "Send to Gemini on Connect " checkbox is not checked.? After you have the Gemini working correctly, and you Download From Gemini, store that new configuration.? ?That will override the existing named Default file.? ?Also save a copy with a name like "GM8_good_Nov_22_2017".? )
Best,? Michael Herman?
On Nov 22, 2017 11:32 AM, " yh@... [Losmandy_users]" < Losmandy_users@...> wrote:
?
Hi Bob,
You've done quite a bit of troubleshooting, all the basic things I would've checked. Since the problem appears to be related to your mount settings, this where we should concentrate.
1. Do you use just the HC to do all of this, or control your mount from a PC? If PC, try resetting everything to defaults, and use just the physical HC without connecting the PC.
2. Probably not significant, but Eastern time is now -5 hours from UTC, not -4.
3. When you say RA movement is minimal, what actually happens when you do the first goto from CWD? How long is the slew? Are both axis slewing? How far away is the star from where the mount stops?? Can you move the the mount in RA when pressing HC buttons or does that stop immediately as well?
4. Did you have this problem before you upgrade to v1.05, or did it start after the upgrade? If this started recently, it may be worth a test to plug in the older EPROM, if you still have it.
Regards,
? ?-Paul
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Michael Herman
David C. Partridge