开云体育

Evan,
I agree with Bill regarding your chassis. To be honest there are
probably only a 'few' people using original chassis in race situation
even with 200 or so HP. Chassis fatigue and stress as you'd expect
over the years and failures are much more likely. Xanthos has
supplied in the region of 100 chassis over the last 12 years and most
going to the race market. Without exception race times are improved
because a new chassis is stiffer....why? Because the old one is on
it's last legs and is flexing about!!

What would be most interesting to know is if the original chassis was
significantly uprated at the rear end. The original tube geometry may
well support more HP if the gauges are simply uprated but where they?
There are other small modification I have seen which also stiffen the
rear and I wonder if these are there or not. Ideally I'd like to see
a sketch of the tube geometry fitted to the rear of you car to see if
it has anything unusual but I also think that retiring the chassis
would give you an opportunity to find out what gauges of tube are in
the rear. If yours does show to be in 'original' form then I'd be
concerned in any case. Why was this not done when the engine was
originally fitted? Was this also planned as a 'stage 11' development
that didn't happen? At that point you'll need to research what should
be done to accept the extra power but this really should not be
compromised. Comment about the 19 are valid as these were designed
for the Climax F1 engine from the 18 but still only 237HP! The 19
registra is Kelvin Jones (+44 1925 723679).

Also it should be mentioned that the original chassis were designed
for only a few seasons of racing. Wishbones in particular can fail
very early and should be replaced regularly or uprated. Xanthos make
16 gauge wishbones for serious race use (where the driver understands
to check and replace them regularly) or uprates them the 14 and
sometimes even 12 gauge for casual and road use. For road use in the
US we build the chassis with heavier gauge in the rear section to
allow the use of up to 238Hp Honda engines and to provide longevity.
As I suspect wieght is not an issue with your car then uprating all
rear tubes should be the minimum done.

Our rear drive shafts, axles etc. are also all uprated and have not
shown any problem with this power (238Hp). We have become something
of a 'supplier of choice' for racers in Europe especially with regard
the uprated rear corners and I am aware of a rear axle failure in a
US car last year using components sourced in the US but don't know
exactly where they came from so there is some concern. This was in
race and on a street circuit so some brown stains are now to be found
in the cockpit!

It's wonderful to see and hear your car back together but I do fear
that the next phase will take some research and time to end up with a
useable and safe product. I wonder more now about why the car was
abandoned initially?

If I can be of any help then I would be most pleased to.

Regards
Nigel Silverthorn







--- In L23Registry@..., William Steagall
<steagall99@y...> wrote:

Evan,
My answer about the original chassis and 300 BHP is no, I would not

race a car with that configuration. Nor would I use a
Curtiss 'exact' replica. But I may not be the best person to ask. I
am copying Don Schaefer on this, thinking him a better person to ask.

In fact, perhaps you should ask him about sources for all replica

parts. Some sources have recently been reported to give problems.
Lee Chapman IS NOT one of them.

Bill Steagall

marinmcgreevy <marinmcgreevy@s...> wrote:
All,

I have placed a MPEG (movie) file in the files folder. This movie
shows (and lets you listen!) to the car's original engine being
started for the second time since 1965. The first time was a

couple

of hours earlier. I do not know for certain if this is true but I
have put together the following story from several sources

regarding

the orgins of the engine.

Engine was built by Travers and Coons (TRACO) in 1962 for the

Scarab

mid engine sports car that was first owned and driven by Lance
Reventlow and then owned by John Mecom and driven by AJ Foyt. This
particular engine was obtained by the California Racing Partnership
in 1963 when Mecom converted the Scarab to small block Chevy power
(again by TRACO) and sold off the Olds V8 engines. This particular
engine is 4 liters and was dynoed by TRACO at 308 horsepower when
running on four 45DCOE Webers. The Weber manifold was built by

Phil

Remington. The engine was sold to the Calif Racing Partnership
without the Weber manifold so they used this Edelbrock manifold

with

2, two barrel Rochesters. I have the original Remington manifold

and

the Webers sitting in a box. I believe this engine was last run on
August 21, 1965. I have owned the engine since 1987. I bought the
engine from an individual who purchased it from the original owner

of

the 23. It was sitting in his garage with all the accessories in a
box. I also have three addtional Olds blocks and heads that were
obtained from Mecom. All four engines have the same modifications
for racing and installing in a mid engine car.

I am now at the end of Phase I of my four phase restoration plan:
Phase I: Assemble car with all original components to running stage.
Phase II: Fit body to car
Phase III: Dissasemble car, catalog and inspect everything
Phase IV: Restore/replace all components and assemble car

This leads me to a few questions to those of you who have already
restored a Lotus 23:

1. The original frame has been damaged and repaired. The repair is
evident and ties to the two documented crashes that the frame was
subjected to. The frame is straight as far as alignment but the
items
like the outriggers are not straight even though the pontoons are
aligned. Do I restore this frame or use a new one? I have a new
frame built by Bert Curtis that is an exact replica of the

original.

I like the fact that the frame shows the history of the car and

that

it was built by Arch motors. However the car does have 300
horsepower...

2. After reading about the front suspension failures I am a little
concerned about the viability of this car as a long-term vintage
racer. Even if I replace all the suspension components, they still
were designed for much narrower tires and less power. I have seen
other 23s that have been converted back to "original" configuration
with twin cams and wobblies. I could re-engineer the suspension
components and have new, vastly stronger, suspension components
fabricated but that would be more work than converting the car back
to "original" (narrow tires) configuration. I guess my question is
would any of you vintage race your car with your existing

suspension

and brakes but with 300hp and 9" & 10" wide tires?

I hope all of you can hear the movie file I uploaded. The sound of
the car is phenominal. I still am in awe that the car was able to

be

assembled from a bunch parts in boxes and be a "runner". All the
parts were dispersed for years and now they are coming back

together

with very little effort. Other than finding an old Corvette
radiator, fabricating some coolant manifolding, and replacing the
fuel lines, everything is original.

Evan McGreevy






---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
L23Registry-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

All,

Thanks for the encouragement. I have a set of of 23 frame drawings
and have compared the car to those. The wheelbase, track, chassis
height, width, etc.. are all the same as a 23B. There are some
significant detail differences in that the diameter and wall
thickness of many of the chassis tubes are larger. For example, both
of the bottom longitudinal members are different. Where on a 23B
these tubes are 1-1/2 by 3/4 rectangular tubes, this car has heavy
wall 1-1/2" diameter round tubes. It appears that every tube that
has compound loading such as compression, torsion and tension, has
been made larger. Where a 23B has 1-1/4" diameter tubes, this car has
1-1/2" tubes. There are also more tubes around the engine, aft of
the firewall.
I have spoken directly to individuals who had first hand exposure to
the car when it was new. Their recollection was that the frame was
actually designed, using the 23B as a starting point, by Motor Racing
Developments (MRD)/Brabham. They did the design work to make the 23B
frame more robust for the V8. My concern is that while significant
effort was put into beefing up a 23B frame for the V8 and the HD-5
Hewland, standard 23 suspension links were used. I have posted some
more photos that show some details of the frame.

The replica frame built by Curtis was based on my frame and not a 23B
and thus has all the original differences. Both frames look like 23B
frames but with all tubes larger in diameter. The quality of the
Curtis frame, made about ten years ago, is excellent. The tubing
used is Chrome Moly instead of mild steel and the welds (nickel
bronze "welding") are of very high quality. I have not found any
markings on the original frame. It does have three coats of paint. I
have looked at all the common locations where Arch Motors would stamp
the frame, but have not found a single mark anywhere. I may find
something when the frame is media blasted. I have to rely on the
recollection of the original owners on the origin of the frame. The
frame is 40 years old.

Bill Webb, the original owner did indicate that the car was "fast".
He did only drive the car once, back on Aug 21, 1965 and he crashed.
After the car was rebuilt and running with a F2 BMW engine, Gus
Chofre raced the car several times at Riverside, Laguna Seca, and
Sears in SCCA B sports racing His recollection was that the car was
an excellent and stable race car.

All of the suspension components have been crack tested and all were
crack-free. I will have more non-destructive examination, NDE,
performed on critical components.

More to come...

You are right, the engine sounds great. My only worrys about this
installation would be first if the frame could take the torque of the
engine in the rear section and second how big a tire are you going to
put on the car.
My twincam is bolted in with some pretty flimsy looking tubing motor
mounts that are quite long. I don't think these would be adequate
for a V8 even though it might weigh about the same as the 4. Even if
you beefed up the mounts, is the frame up to the torque? Have you
compared this frame with a regular 23? Has it been beefed up for the
V8? The 19s do it pretty regularly so there must be a solution.

The loti that normally run with V8s are the 19s and they run pretty
narrow tires for all the HP. If the tires get too big, even the
available chrome-moly suspension bits might not take the beating. If
they do live, the frame mounts might not. I don't think you should
put superwide tires on the car. Just learn to be easy on the gas
coming out of corners. Look at what tires the 19s are running.

Good luck with the car. It sounds like a very interesting project.

Don Stark

--- In L23Registry@..., "marinmcgreevy"
<marinmcgreevy@s...> wrote:

All,

I have placed a MPEG (movie) file in the files folder. This movie
shows (and lets you listen!) to the car's original engine being
started for the second time since 1965. The first time was a

couple

of hours earlier. I do not know for certain if this is true but I
have put together the following story from several sources

regarding

the orgins of the engine.

Engine was built by Travers and Coons (TRACO) in 1962 for the

Scarab

mid engine sports car that was first owned and driven by Lance
Reventlow and then owned by John Mecom and driven by AJ Foyt. This
particular engine was obtained by the California Racing Partnership
in 1963 when Mecom converted the Scarab to small block Chevy power
(again by TRACO) and sold off the Olds V8 engines. This particular
engine is 4 liters and was dynoed by TRACO at 308 horsepower when
running on four 45DCOE Webers. The Weber manifold was built by

Phil

Remington. The engine was sold to the Calif Racing Partnership
without the Weber manifold so they used this Edelbrock manifold

with

2, two barrel Rochesters. I have the original Remington manifold

and

the Webers sitting in a box. I believe this engine was last run on
August 21, 1965. I have owned the engine since 1987. I bought the
engine from an individual who purchased it from the original owner

of

the 23. It was sitting in his garage with all the accessories in a
box. I also have three addtional Olds blocks and heads that were
obtained from Mecom. All four engines have the same modifications
for racing and installing in a mid engine car.

I am now at the end of Phase I of my four phase restoration plan:
Phase I: Assemble car with all original components to running stage.
Phase II: Fit body to car
Phase III: Dissasemble car, catalog and inspect everything
Phase IV: Restore/replace all components and assemble car

This leads me to a few questions to those of you who have already
restored a Lotus 23:

1. The original frame has been damaged and repaired. The repair is
evident and ties to the two documented crashes that the frame was
subjected to. The frame is straight as far as alignment but the
items
like the outriggers are not straight even though the pontoons are
aligned. Do I restore this frame or use a new one? I have a new
frame built by Bert Curtis that is an exact replica of the

original.

I like the fact that the frame shows the history of the car and

that

it was built by Arch motors. However the car does have 300
horsepower...

2. After reading about the front suspension failures I am a little
concerned about the viability of this car as a long-term vintage
racer. Even if I replace all the suspension components, they still
were designed for much narrower tires and less power. I have seen
other 23s that have been converted back to "original" configuration
with twin cams and wobblies. I could re-engineer the suspension
components and have new, vastly stronger, suspension components
fabricated but that would be more work than converting the car back
to "original" (narrow tires) configuration. I guess my question is
would any of you vintage race your car with your existing

suspension

and brakes but with 300hp and 9" & 10" wide tires?

I hope all of you can hear the movie file I uploaded. The sound of
the car is phenominal. I still am in awe that the car was able to

be

assembled from a bunch parts in boxes and be a "runner". All the
parts were dispersed for years and now they are coming back

together

with very little effort. Other than finding an old Corvette
radiator, fabricating some coolant manifolding, and replacing the
fuel lines, everything is original.

Evan McGreevy

Evan:

Gawd! Wish my 23 sounded like that! Then again, I think I might be afraid to put my foot down on the accelerator as the car would probably do a wheel stand for a good long distance! Great work, you are to be congratulated on taking a basket case and putting it into running condition. It's also very satisfying...sort of like putting together a very difficult puzzle, without an instruction book.

Regarding the frame, in my opinion, you might want to seek some professional advice. There are a number of good and experienced car restorers at Infineon Raceway, in Berkeley and Marin who have worked on a wide variety of cars, including Lotus 23s. You might also want to talk with Gordan Gimbel who has the Pacesetter Ford Lotus 19 with V-8 Ford, originally raced by Dan Gurney. He might be able to provide some idea about a big V-8 in a chassis originally designed for a smaller engine. On one hand, the car has some very interesting provenance and it would be a shame to lose that. On the other hand, you want a car that is safe and reliable to drive.

I also have two other fellows I will forward your email to for advice. One is an experienced racer (F1, LeMans, F5000) and racecar builder, the other a car builder and former Lotus 23B racer that ran a 2 liter Climax.

If you need any phone numbers for any of the above, let me know and I'll be back in touch when I hear from the two other fellows. Keep up the good work!

Gary Horstkorta




From: "marinmcgreevy" <marinmcgreevy@...>
Reply-To: L23Registry@...
To: L23Registry@...
Subject: [L23Registry] Car is running
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 03:10:46 -0000

_________________________________________________________________
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium!

All,

I have placed a MPEG (movie) file in the files folder. This movie
shows (and lets you listen!) to the car's original engine being
started for the second time since 1965. The first time was a couple
of hours earlier. I do not know for certain if this is true but I
have put together the following story from several sources regarding
the orgins of the engine.

Engine was built by Travers and Coons (TRACO) in 1962 for the Scarab
mid engine sports car that was first owned and driven by Lance
Reventlow and then owned by John Mecom and driven by AJ Foyt. This
particular engine was obtained by the California Racing Partnership
in 1963 when Mecom converted the Scarab to small block Chevy power
(again by TRACO) and sold off the Olds V8 engines. This particular
engine is 4 liters and was dynoed by TRACO at 308 horsepower when
running on four 45DCOE Webers. The Weber manifold was built by Phil
Remington. The engine was sold to the Calif Racing Partnership
without the Weber manifold so they used this Edelbrock manifold with
2, two barrel Rochesters. I have the original Remington manifold and
the Webers sitting in a box. I believe this engine was last run on
August 21, 1965. I have owned the engine since 1987. I bought the
engine from an individual who purchased it from the original owner of
the 23. It was sitting in his garage with all the accessories in a
box. I also have three addtional Olds blocks and heads that were
obtained from Mecom. All four engines have the same modifications
for racing and installing in a mid engine car.

I am now at the end of Phase I of my four phase restoration plan:
Phase I: Assemble car with all original components to running stage.
Phase II: Fit body to car
Phase III: Dissasemble car, catalog and inspect everything
Phase IV: Restore/replace all components and assemble car

This leads me to a few questions to those of you who have already
restored a Lotus 23:

1. The original frame has been damaged and repaired. The repair is
evident and ties to the two documented crashes that the frame was
subjected to. The frame is straight as far as alignment but the
items
like the outriggers are not straight even though the pontoons are
aligned. Do I restore this frame or use a new one? I have a new
frame built by Bert Curtis that is an exact replica of the original.
I like the fact that the frame shows the history of the car and that
it was built by Arch motors. However the car does have 300
horsepower...

2. After reading about the front suspension failures I am a little
concerned about the viability of this car as a long-term vintage
racer. Even if I replace all the suspension components, they still
were designed for much narrower tires and less power. I have seen
other 23s that have been converted back to "original" configuration
with twin cams and wobblies. I could re-engineer the suspension
components and have new, vastly stronger, suspension components
fabricated but that would be more work than converting the car back
to "original" (narrow tires) configuration. I guess my question is
would any of you vintage race your car with your existing suspension
and brakes but with 300hp and 9" & 10" wide tires?

I hope all of you can hear the movie file I uploaded. The sound of
the car is phenominal. I still am in awe that the car was able to be
assembled from a bunch parts in boxes and be a "runner". All the
parts were dispersed for years and now they are coming back together
with very little effort. Other than finding an old Corvette
radiator, fabricating some coolant manifolding, and replacing the
fuel lines, everything is original.

Evan McGreevy

I second Don Stark's comments regarding L23 suspension checks. I
had a similar failure of a right front, lower A Arm without any
warning. Fortunately, my incident happened just after I had braked
hard for a turn and I was able to go straight off the course onto an
escape road. The car doesn't steer at all with one wheel jammed in
the wheel well!

After bringing the car home, I checked all the other A Arms and
found the lower left front one had a slight downward bend and was
out of round. A failure waiting to happen. These A arms were brand
new when I restored the car three years ago. So check those
components between each race during a weekend and during your pre-
race prep.

Gary H.

I have placed some additional photos of the California Racing
Partnership Special showing the original radiator installed on the
car. The radiator is from a 1964 small block Corvette. The original
subframe was fabricated to capture the bottom Corvette mount and a
bracket, mounted on the chassis front bulkhead, holds the top of the
radiator. The coolant runs through the frame tubes, with both the
top and botton longitudinal tubes being 1-1/4" OD. The external
water pump is driven off the V-8s crankshaft and pushes the coolant,
through a manifold, through two inlets, one on each side of the
block. The oil cooler, not yet installed, is mounted just above the
radiator. It is a 1950s aircraft oil cooler with a built in
thermostat. Next step is installing the fuel system and wiring. The
tank is a fabricated and welded aluminum tank that was held on by two
sheet metal straps that were pop-riveted to the frame tubes.

Plan to have car complete and running by early spring. Nothing has
been restored in any way. I am sifting through numerous boxes to try
and determine the original configuration. Once it is all together
and running, will begin to see what is good and bad operationally and
correct deficiencies. Once that is complete, it will all come apart
for refinishing. The goal is to keep the configuration as close as
possible to the original, as it was raced a single time in 1965.

Evan McGreevy
Mill Valley, California

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the L23Registry
group.

File : /23 Parts Supplier
Uploaded by : silvenm <Nigel@...>
Description : Xanthos Cars

You can access this file at the URL



To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit



Regards,

silvenm <Nigel@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the L23Registry
group.

File : /NEWBOY.TXT
Uploaded by : steagall99 <steagall99@...>
Description : Letter to 'newbys'

You can access this file at the URL



To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit



Regards,

steagall99 <steagall99@...>