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Re: Lotus 23 for sale out there???
Nigel:
Sounds like a good reason for a "road trip" as we call them. Can you forward any info on available cars to me? Mike --- silvenm <Nigel@...> wrote:
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. |
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Re: Lotus 23 for sale out there???
silvenm
Hi Mike,
I'm aware of a number for sale in the UK, possibly as many as 4 but 2 for definite! If you may be interested in one from this side of the pond then I can put you in touch..... Regards Nigel Silverthorn --- In L23Registry@..., "bluesbrother30" <bluesbrother30@y...> wrote:
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Re: Lotus 23 for sale out there???
Gary Horstkorta
Mike:
Hello. I assume you have checked the want ads in the vintage race magazines, such as Victory Lane and Vintage Racecar Journal? Also, you might try some of the race shops around the Bay Area who work on 23's. Two in particular, John Anderson at Infineon (707-939-7462) and Jim Groom in Berkeley whose number I don't have at my fingertips. Also try Dave Bean Engineering as they are one of the largest suppliers of Lotus parts in the West, 209-754-5802. You might also contact the other vintage race clubs (VARA, SOVERN, etc) to see if they know of any members who are selling 23's. Good luck. Gary Horstkorta From: "bluesbrother30" <bluesbrother30@...> Reply-To: L23Registry@... To: L23Registry@... Subject: [L23Registry] Lotus 23 for sale out there??? Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:55:30 -0000 |
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Re: to 23b or not....
silvenm
Hi Gary,
I can't recall seeing the gearchange like you describe on cars in the UK but perhaps I just haven't noticed!! Alternatively many of these may have started life as an 'a' spec car? I am sure I've seen many with the shift going down to the lower corner though so wander if this was the 23 (a) arrangement for an early Hewland or VW box. I run my change like this and have used it both with Hewland Mk9 and currently with the beetle rear shaft shift arrnagement. Giving thought to the position of Lotus at the time they undertook several developments and labelling an 'a', 'b' or 'c' is actually very difficult. Initially changes would just have been straight drawing revisions and so the change from centre gear shift to right hand did not warrent a different product designation. Similarly revisions could be retrofitted and so a cars build could change. excluding the retrofitting a car would be built top a standard represented by the drawings issue at the time and so each car could be different in some minor way as revisions occured. Eventually a chnage may be seen as majorand may warrant a new title for the car and so perhaps the 'b' comes about. However many drawings allready prepared for what was at first considered a minor change would not reflect this and so may just say 'modified for twin cam installation' and then later when someone says "let's call it a 'b' 'cos it's so different", no one is going to go back and change all the comments on drawings allready issued!! Meanwhile earlier cars are being modified with later modifications, some not all perhaps so whilst the later extra side tubes might go in, perhaps the later gearchange doesn't. If the factory did at some point define a 23b or 23c there is no record of the drawings and issues this related to I would imagine and so it ceases to be possible to indentify any car as one thing or another.....mmmmm. This all adds to the fun when someone asks me 'is this a genuine car?' as it's impossible to work out if it is a specific variant. Having said that and for example if the gear mechanism goes down to the floor as an early right hand shift seems to have been, you would not expect to then see the later top bracket fitted on the chassis as you would not expect a 'b' modified chassis to have an 'a' mechanism fitted. But after 40 years of being played with why not? Interestingly and it is a quandry but my replacement chassis drawings for 23b have brackets for both upper and lower routing of the gearshift but have the lower,early, style of mechanism fitted!!! Perhaps a giveaway! cheers. --- In L23Registry@..., "Gary Horstkorta" <horsty@m...> wrote: Nigel:all the various books I have read, the only model designations I have seenrefer to the 23, 23B and 23C so I would tend to agree that this is correct.Perhaps other designations came about as a result of the update kits Lotussold to 23 owners to make them into 23Bs.right hand shift with the gear lever near the top frame tube and close to thescuttle. The change mechanism then runs parallel to the top tube through thefirewall to a u-joint which angles down to under the Webers to another u-joint which is attached to a short tube that is bolted to the shift rod. Ihave a Hewland Mk9 so the shift rod comes out of the box pointed foward.This shift mechanism was nicely fabricated by a local shop and has onlyrequired one change of the hard plastic busings at the support points in 30races.
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Re: to 23b or not....
Gary Horstkorta
Nigel:
Thanks for the official/unoffical on the 23b (or is it 23B?). In all the various books I have read, the only model designations I have seen refer to the 23, 23B and 23C so I would tend to agree that this is correct. Perhaps other designations came about as a result of the update kits Lotus sold to 23 owners to make them into 23Bs. Regarding the gear change, my car and many others I have seen are right hand shift with the gear lever near the top frame tube and close to the scuttle. The change mechanism then runs parallel to the top tube through the firewall to a u-joint which angles down to under the Webers to another u-joint which is attached to a short tube that is bolted to the shift rod. I have a Hewland Mk9 so the shift rod comes out of the box pointed foward. This shift mechanism was nicely fabricated by a local shop and has only required one change of the hard plastic busings at the support points in 30 races. Gary From: "silvenm" <Nigel@...> Reply-To: L23Registry@... To: L23Registry@... Subject: [L23Registry] to 23b or not.... Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:04:14 -0000 |
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to 23b or not....
silvenm
Hi all,
Some time back there was a thread which sadi that Lotus never called a 23 a 'b'. I just thought I'd pass on that I have several factory drawings of the period of change, on which I've just noticed the draughtmans notes are, for example, "Bushes for gear change mechanism - type 23'b'" this is on drg no. 8601 sht 7 date 4/4/63 and listed as a 'new drawing' (by which I assume this meant a new sht to the drawing). Curriously I haven't seen these brakets used on a 23b as generally the gearchange goes down to the bottom of the chassis behind the seat rather than along the top rail where this 'new' bracket is drawn and is fitted on my chassis.... Another drawing (8601 sht 6) shows a modification in '63 but lists this as 'for the twin cam engine' rather than any reference to '23b'. It is interesting that a 'new drawing' for the twin cam version explicitley says 23b when a modified drawing just refers to changes for twin cam. So did Lotus actually call a 23b a 23b or not....perhpas some did and some didn't...typically Lotus :)) |
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Re: Clutch overheating?
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI had
the same problem some years back with my 23b while using a VW box. After about 5
laps, it did not like to change gears.? I changed and tried everything. The
simple cure - new slave cylinder (overhaul kit did not work!). You would not
have this problem with a hewland, as, with care, you can change?gears
without a clutch, or the opposition knowing that you have a problem.
?
Regards
?
Eric
Salomon
Cape
Town, South Africa.
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Re: Clutch Overheating
Ellis Cahn
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý??? Concerning clutch problems I have found
the easiest test is to check free play at the slave rod.? about a 1/4" or
slightly less seems to suffice.? If you have little or no free play expect
to wear things out rapidly with over cooking symptoms.
???? Shortly after acquiring my 23, I
went out to Laguna Seca in Oct. 01 to see the many 23's there.? I realized
that all the cars had a Winged Cowl extending from the front bulk head extending
up to the body work.? I call it my "Wings".? It does little in the way
of heat dissipation but certainly rreduces the amount of rubber frags and stones
entering the cockpit.?
???? It may reduce the amount of
debris but I still spend hours cleaning all the little fragments.? I must
admit after a weekend race there is more than several hand fuls? of tire
rubber and stones.? How does it all get in there??? Did ol' Colin
realize he designed a race car? that acted like a vacuum?? The
predecesor to ground effects?
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Shifting difficulties
Don Stark
Nigel,
As I mentioned earlier, there are more things than the clutch itself that might turn the input shaft. First is the pilot shaft bearing. This is in the end of the crankshaft and supports the input shaft at its end. If this bearing lacks lubrication, it might work when cold but drag when hot due to the lubrication thinning out with the heat. Also, there is a thimble that surrounds the input shaft and bridges the gap between the normal VW cross shaft/t/o bearing and the clutch itself. This rides on the input shaft and turns at engine rpm when you are actuating the clutch. If there is drag between the thimble and the input shaft, it will cause the shaft to turn. I used Bosch grease that is normally used for distributer cams on these items so that the lubrication stayed in place even when hot. The simple thing would be that due to the way things are set up you just need a little more throw in the clutch hydraulic system. There is a stop on the slave cylinder that is adjustable. Maybe giving it a little more movement would allow the clutch to work better when hot. It would be good to observe how this works when the car is cold and then again when it is hot to see if the range of motion changes or if you are hitting the stop when things are hot. Replacing the plastic bushing that is right next to the actuating arm would be a good thing. The old VW part was a brass bushing so you might look for one of those. I think that they are a different size internal dimension for a smaller size cross shaft though. I had to make mine on a lathe. Putting aluminum around the front of the framework right around the footbox is a good thing to keep out heat, stones, dirt, etc. My car has the footbox competely enclosed and it is shaped somewhat like the bodywork at the top to minimize stuff getting into the cockpit. My protection is behind the master cylinders though so they have no protection from heat or stones. I should think that you would especially need this in England where you folks think nothing of running in the rain. Good luck! Don Stark |
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Clutch Overheating
silvenm
Many thanks for all your emails.
I was using a standard DOT 4 product and changed it to Castrol Response which I understand to be a DOT4 compatable racing fluid. This had no effect so perhaps it isn't the fluid as I sugested. Clutch plate and presue plate are AP racing items recommended for track use (but perhaps not race) with a Twin cam. Engine is a road item so only has 120bhp or so. I also changed a rubber hose to the slave for a braided one, again with no improvement. The problem is one of getting a gear when stationary, once in gear and on the move there seems little problem in changing. As mentioned this indicates the input shaft rotating and hence the clutch is dragging. I'm thinking this can only be because the operationg arm isn't moving enough to fully dissengage the clutch and hence must be a hydraulic issue. I do wonder about the old VW release actuating arm though which does have an old plastic bearing but even if this was sticking I would have thought the hydraulic presure would overcome it. I can see how it not releasing back and possibly causing clutch slip if jamming? Anyway there are certainly a few mor things for me to concider and look at. I thinks I'll measure carefully the movement in the operating system before I next use it and then make the same measurements if (when!) it happens again. Meanwhile I also like the idea of a shield between radiator and resevoirs. I wonder if this might also help my feet from boiling up!! If it also limits the bucket full of marbels I seem to collect in a day then this would be good also. When I take a passenger they says it's like being hit by shapnel as it comes flying in through the bodywork somewhere! Thanks again all. |
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Clutch overheating
Don Stark
Nigel,
I was just thinking also, that if the clutch plate either gets warped from heat or sticks to the flywheel or pressure plate that this could cause your problem. If there is an oil leak getting on the clutch, it could cause it to stick and if it is a stock rather than racing clutch, it might like the heat and warp. Both of these could cause difficulties in shifting. The test is the same however, if you can shift into gear at a stop the clutch is doing it's job. Don Stark |
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Clutch Hydrolics overheating
Don Stark
Nigel,
I have a 23B with nothing between the radiator and the master cylinders. Also, the clutch slave is on the side of the bell housing just behind the headers. My headers lead down so that they are under the slave by about a foot as they go under. I also have a pretty good flow through muffler just before the exhaust dumps out of the body work. I have not experienced any difficulty with shifting or the clutch operation. I have a Hewland, so maybe this is the difference. On thinking about it though, I don't believe that the fluid in the clutch operating system could get hot enough to really affect it's operation. It is after all, high temperature brake fluid. It would have to get hot enough to boil and cause bubbles in the line. Otherwise, just warming up the fluid would only cause the excess to move back into the master cylinder reservoir. It might boil if it had been left too long in the system and had picked up water but this is unlikely. It still would have to get over 212 deg. before it boiled. If you think about it, the brake calipers get much hotter than anything in the clutch system and they seem to work fine. Maybe there is something else getting hot and causing the problem. It could be the cross shaft bushings or the bushings on the thimble between the t/o bearing and the clutch. Another thing is that the pilot shaft bearing might be dragging when it gets warm causing the input shaft to keep turning and this would make the syncros work harder. The big question is can you shift into gear from a stop after the race without grinding. If you can, things in the clutch system are ok and you need to look at the trans itself. If not, you have to look at what in the clutch system is causing the input shaft to still turn. Bubbles might cause you to not be able to move the clutch arm enough but I would think that pumping the clutch would eventually get the clutch to disengage. I really think that the hydraulic part of the system must be working ok and you should look elswhere. When I first got my car, it was a bear to push in on the clutch and the actuating arm sticking out of the bell housing was heavily reinforced. During my first weekend, the arm broke and then I blew the hydraulic line leading to the slave cylinder. I took the trans out and found out that the cross shaft bushing was a cheap plastic VW part that was causing the cross shaft to bind. Also, the internal bushings in the thimble were cracked and falling apart. (Mine are quite thin) After putting a nice oilite bushing about 3 times wider than the plastic one in and putting new bushings in the thimble and putting on a smaller diameter master cylinder, the clutch system has been working without complaint for the last 3 years. I'm even using a normal actuating arm and it doesn't look like it is stressed at all. When I had the trans out I talked to a number of people about the internal slave cylinders and they swore by them. The only problem is that if they leak, you have to remove the trans to fix them. I was told that this is not normally a problem. The one tricky thing is setting up the t/o bearing. If the slave moves too far, it will slip out of it's seal and then you have to take it all apart and start all over. You have to keep track of the clutch wear and the freeplay. I hope this helps in solving your problems. Don Stark |
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Re: Clutch overheating?
jmf94550
Nigel:
Our vintage races usually last about 20-25 minutes and I don't recall having a problem with either the clutch slave cylinder or the clutch/brake reservoirs. I do have a Hewland gearbox. During the Summer months, ambient air temperatures at our Northern California racetracks can regularly reach 90 - 100 degrees (F) with track temps highter that that. My car has no ducting but I do have a sheet of aluminum that is attached to the bottom frame tubes which runs from below the radiator to the front bulkhead. This is primarily there to help keep bits of tire rubber, pebbles, etc from getting into the cockpit. Gary --- In L23Registry@..., "silvenm" <Nigel@s...> wrote: I wonder if others have the same problem I have. Twoards the endof a days track use I start to get gear selection problems. The clutchbox. It has a small heatshield but is only 5 inches from the exhaustthe radiator. I am assuming that it is this heat that then causes myreservoirs (I also get some expansion in the brake system which I thionk isdown to this) and do you also provide some ducting in the rear. All Ihave is the small opening behind the door to provide air into the rear.As it only happens late in the day I'm not so bothered and with asyncro box at the moment and this really does not like being forced whenthe clutch does fully dissengage. In the rear I am also running afairly large silencer (Elise mk2 style)to meet noise restriction here andbearing? How does that perform? |
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Clutch overheating?
silvenm
I wonder if others have the same problem I have. Twoards the end of a
days track use I start to get gear selection problems. The clutch slave is a standard girling unit mounted as normal for a Hewland box. It has a small heatshield but is only 5 inches from the exhaust manifold. This gets very hot but also so are the resevoirs behind the radiator. I am assuming that it is this heat that then causes my clutch to start draging. Do people duct the hot air from the radiator away from the reservoirs (I also get some expansion in the brake system which I thionk is down to this) and do you also provide some ducting in the rear. All I have is the small opening behind the door to provide air into the rear. As it only happens late in the day I'm not so bothered and with a Hewland it's not an issue either but I'm running a Formula Vee syncro box at the moment and this really does not like being forced when the clutch does fully dissengage. In the rear I am also running a fairly large silencer (Elise mk2 style)to meet noise restriction here and that also creates a large ammount of stagnating hot air. Is anyone running a slave cylinder integral to the release bearing? How does that perform? Any thoughts would be appreciated? Best Regards Nigel |
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Re: Frame Modification
silvenm
Hi all,
Many thanks foir the photo's and information Gary. Bill, I'll have to try that. I've been trying to promote our reproduction car into he track day market here competing with all the 7 lookalikes which dominate the scene. Our car is so much more capable and much cheaper to build at the performance end since it doesn't need a flakey 'K' series pushed to 220bhp as does a caterham. My demo car has a standard road twin cam with 120bhp at the flywheeel and even then it's the quickest thing out there through the bends and only crazy money caterhams are beating it generally with straight line speed. We promote the car with a very mild 165bhp Ford Zetec which will easily outgun a 220bhp '7' for a lot less money and a lot more reliability. The issues we have though are in getting taller or larger people inot the car. The 7 isn;t big but seems to be more forgiving on driver size. We are trying to promote with a standard chassis but it looks like we nay have to make soem modification for this market both with the top bars over you legs and possibly making provision to move the pedals as well. Customers also want significant roll cages as well. All this is sad since I really do try to stick to making only accurate reproduction parts. I guess I may have to do both in order to meet demand of a bigger market and steal some thunder from Caterham etc. cheers --- In L23Registry@..., William Steagall <steagall99@y...> wrote: To all, |
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Re: Frame Modification
To all,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I followed the example of another tall driver, the late Charles Gibson, and turned the seat upside down, sittign on the back of it. Bill Steagall --- jmf94550 <horsty@...> wrote: Nigel: |
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Frame Modification
jmf94550
Nigel:
Based on previous emails regarding frame modifications to 23s for taller drivers, please see the photo titled "Frame Modification" which I have posted in the photos section of this site. The car in question belongs to Don Stark who was my paddock mate at last weekends Monterey Historics. The car was modified for a tall driver which included moving the seat back as far as possible. Hope this picture provides you with a useful solution. Gary |
Eric Salomon
Mklfj20
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