?

On 5/25/2016 4:31 AM, Kresy-Siberia@... wrote:
> I still encounter this ex-Communist amnesia from mainland Poles who
> come to Toronto and seem to know nothing about the Polish 2nd Corps
> and often who will insist that we are not "true Poles" but merely
> foreigners of distant Polish ancestry, which is so very, very irritating.
Not quite the same thing, but I had an experience of lost memory last
month, in Florence. The clerk at our hotel was a pretty girl with
striking blue eyes and handsome cheeks. I asked her if she were Swedish.
No, she was Polish. Where from? "Oh, a place you have never heard
of--Lublin."

I insisted it was quite famous, and begin to talk about the "London
Poles" and the "Lublin Poles" in 1945 and all that they portended for
the future of Poland, not to mention Europe and indeed the world. Her
eyes glazed over. "Well, you know more about it than I do," she said.

To the young, everything that went before is ancient history.

-- Dan Ford USA

?

On 5/25/2016 4:31 AM, Kresy-Siberia@... wrote:
> I still encounter this ex-Communist amnesia from mainland Poles who
> come to Toronto and seem to know nothing about the Polish 2nd Corps
> and often who will insist that we are not "true Poles" but merely
> foreigners of distant Polish ancestry, which is so very, very irritating.
Not quite the same thing, but I had an experience of lost memory last
month, in Florence. The clerk at our hotel was a pretty girl with
striking blue eyes and handsome cheeks. I asked her if she were Swedish.
No, she was Polish. Where from? "Oh, a place you have never heard
of--Lublin."

I insisted it was quite famous, and begin to talk about the "London
Poles" and the "Lublin Poles" in 1945 and all that they portended for
the future of Poland, not to mention Europe and indeed the world. Her
eyes glazed over. "Well, you know more about it than I do," she said.

To the young, everything that went before is ancient history.

-- Dan Ford USA

?

Hi

I think we need to be very careful not to generalise all these issues mentioned in the email below:

1) from my own experience I can say that when I arrived in England 1981 I ?have experienced a mixed welcome by the Polish community here. There were every generous and helpful Poles but I have also been looked down by some Poles as being "a communist Pole" which hurt quite a bit.

When the second wave of Poles came ?to England in 2004 they have also experienced bad publicity and only a few Polish organisation took a stand on their behalf. I must congratulate Wiktor Moszczynski for that.

2) when it comes to the knowledge of Polish history, not all Poles are the same like in any nationality. Not all British or American citizens know their country history. However there are many young Poles who do amazing job to preserve our identity and our history.

best regards

Izabela?

On 25 May 2016, at 10:36, "Daniel Ford cub06h@... [Kresy-Siberia]" <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

On 5/25/2016 4:31 AM, Kresy-Siberia@... wrote:
> I still encounter this ex-Communist amnesia from mainland Poles who
> come to Toronto and seem to know nothing about the Polish 2nd Corps
> and often who will insist that we are not "true Poles" but merely
> foreigners of distant Polish ancestry, which is so very, very irritating.
Not quite the same thing, but I had an experience of lost memory last
month, in Florence. The clerk at our hotel was a pretty girl with
striking blue eyes and handsome cheeks. I asked her if she were Swedish.
No, she was Polish. Where from? "Oh, a place you have never heard
of--Lublin."

I insisted it was quite famous, and begin to talk about the "London
Poles" and the "Lublin Poles" in 1945 and all that they portended for
the future of Poland, not to mention Europe and indeed the world. Her
eyes glazed over. "Well, you know more about it than I do," she said.

To the young, everything that went before is ancient history.

-- Dan Ford USA

?

I have been watching this discussion with more than a little interest.
To a certain extent politics is always going to intrude on matters of Poland and the Kresy because we are all here bound together by political events of the past.? Anything that potentially impacts the remembrance of our history is of potential concern and I think it should be discussed.

As an American who is also watching the political circus with Trump and Clinton unfold this situation gives me great concern.
Let us remember it was Hermann Goering who said, "History is written by the victors".

As a result I am vehemently opposed to any political control or influence on the recording, preservation or interpretation of history by those with political motives.? This needs to be left to academics and then needs to be vigorously debated.
Once any particular political movement is put in control of the emphasis of a particular view of past events we can never again be sure of our collective memories of them.

We should discuss this here because we are in the business of the preservation of those memories and anything that impacts that should be a great concern.

I find the charges that the past government somehow suppressed one view or the other of history highly suspect, just as I find the idea of PIS (a particular political party with highly nationalist policies) of even higher suspect.

Leave history to the historians!
This should be the position of KS.

Bernie

On May 27, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

Bernie

Thanks for your thoughtful and perceptive post. Personally, I agree in principle, but observe that in the real world, history is always interpretation and politicians always find it useful to tell their stories their own way. The combination of money, power and motivation means governments will always influence how history is presented.?

For our group this presents a fine line. ? Discussing remembrance and recognition is in our mission! ?But we need to stick to facts and steer clear of political opinions.?

KRESY-SIBERIA?can support or object to policies and actions that affect its mission but we?support no political party.?

We can discuss actions of politicians and others but must steer clear of party politics like blanket praise or condemnation.?

A fine line, but does it make sense to you?

Thanks

Stefan Wisniowski

Currently at Stanford?

On 27 May 2016, at 06:01,?bernard_starzewski@...?[Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

I have been watching this discussion with more than a little interest.
To a certain extent politics is always going to intrude on matters of Poland and the Kresy because we are all here bound together by political events of the past.? Anything that potentially impacts the remembrance of our history is of potential concern and I think it should be discussed.

As an American who is also watching the political circus with Trump and Clinton unfold this situation gives me great concern.
Let us remember it was Hermann Goering who said, "History is written by the victors".

As a result I am vehemently opposed to any political control or influence on the recording, preservation or interpretation of history by those with political motives.? This needs to be left to academics and then needs to be vigorously debated.
Once any particular political movement is put in control of the emphasis of a particular view of past events we can never again be sure of our collective memories of them.

We should discuss this here because we are in the business of the preservation of those memories and anything that impacts that should be a great concern.

I find the charges that the past government somehow suppressed one view or the other of history highly suspect, just as I find the idea of PIS (a particular political party with highly nationalist policies) of even higher suspect.

Leave history to the historians!
This should be the position of KS.

Bernie

?

Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.

He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.

?

Bernie,?

Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.?

As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions.

Regards

Stefan Wisniowski

Kresy-Siberia Foundation

On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.

He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.

?

?

?

Bernie,?

Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.?

As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions.

Regards

Stefan Wisniowski

Kresy-Siberia Foundation

On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.

He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.

?

Bernie,?

Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.?

As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions.

Regards

Stefan Wisniowski

Kresy-Siberia Foundation

On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.

He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.

?

Now, now Pan Jan let's not go off the deep end here!

Mr Gross got his medal for efforts in opposing the Communist regime and no matter what he should keep it, he earned it fair and square.

And likewise I read his book about Jedwabne and what happened there is a historical fact although historians can

quibble about the exact details and numbers but really one murder is just as bad as a thousand.

Unfortunately, like many of us here, Mr Gross has reached an age when he finds himself becoming increasingly irrelevant to the world and becomes a "silly old fart" who starts emitting more gas than wisdom

and that seems to be true about Mr Gross at this stage in his life:- the fact is that although Poles did assist in killing Jews so did Jews themselves and no more Poles killed Jews than did Jews (this should get a few replies!).

Anyway it's not necessary to prosecute the poor fellow for "insulting the Polish nation" and it does tend to make Poland look like a pathetic tin-pot dictatorship to the rest of the world:- it would be enough for the Senate to review the matter and take statements from everyone who wishes to hold forth on the matter and then if necessary to vote a motion of censure against Mr Gross and let it go at that.

Emitting more gas than wisdom seems to be primarily a habit of old men, we ladies always sit down when we pee which also lets the gas out before it starts to hurt us and affect our thinking (and it keeps the toilet seat clean!) so we manage to avoid saying too many stupid things:- cheers my darling, and keep smiling, it will help you live longer!

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 4:36 AM, "Jan Gan janus375@... [Kresy-Siberia]" <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

The History

Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians??

Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject?

None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland.

For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want.

As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation.

- says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him

I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%).

Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ?

Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.?

Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions.

Jan

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

Bernie,?

Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.?

As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions.

Regards

Stefan Wisniowski

Kresy-Siberia Foundation

On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.

He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.

On May 27, 2016, at 11:46 AM, Witold Lukaszewski <wjlukaszewski@...> wrote:

A few obvious questions about history and its facts:

?

1.Is love of one’s country, Poland in this case, patriotism or fascism??

2. Were those who were members of the AK and fought against the Nazis and the communists heroes or bandits?

3. Were communists and Nazis equally evil, or was one less so than the other?

4. Which of these historical facts should students in Polish schools be taught?

Witold

On May 27, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

Bernie

Thanks for your thoughtful and perceptive post. Personally, I agree in principle, but observe that in the real world, history is always interpretation and politicians always find it useful to tell their stories their own way. The combination of money, power and motivation means governments will always influence how history is presented.?

For our group this presents a fine line. ? Discussing remembrance and recognition is in our mission! ?But we need to stick to facts and steer clear of political opinions.?

KRESY-SIBERIA?can support or object to policies and actions that affect its mission but we?support no political party.?

We can discuss actions of politicians and others but must steer clear of party politics like blanket praise or condemnation.?

A fine line, but does it make sense to you?

Thanks

Stefan Wisniowski

Currently at Stanford?

On 27 May 2016, at 06:01,?bernard_starzewski@...?[Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

?

I have been watching this discussion with more than a little interest.
To a certain extent politics is always going to intrude on matters of Poland and the Kresy because we are all here bound together by political events of the past.? Anything that potentially impacts the remembrance of our history is of potential concern and I think it should be discussed.

As an American who is also watching the political circus with Trump and Clinton unfold this situation gives me great concern.
Let us remember it was Hermann Goering who said, "History is written by the victors".

As a result I am vehemently opposed to any political control or influence on the recording, preservation or interpretation of history by those with political motives.? This needs to be left to academics and then needs to be vigorously debated.
Once any particular political movement is put in control of the emphasis of a particular view of past events we can never again be sure of our collective memories of them.

We should discuss this here because we are in the business of the preservation of those memories and anything that impacts that should be a great concern.

I find the charges that the past government somehow suppressed one view or the other of history highly suspect, just as I find the idea of PIS (a particular political party with highly nationalist policies) of even higher suspect.

Leave history to the historians!
This should be the position of KS.

Bernie

?

?

?

?

?

Jan, you brought tears to my eyes and made my heart ?cry for the inhumanity, we have had enough of bitching and biting and blaming.?? All suffered and we must all try to help each other with compassion, understanding and research. ??The pain and suffering is the same, whether we are black, white or green.? Thank you for sharing this.

Lenarda, Sydney Australia

?

?

From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Monday, 30 May 2016 9:26 PM

To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749

?

?

Hi there, Pan Jan!

?

Here is a funny story related to us long ago by a family friend of my mother, Pani Olga!

?

Once upon a time a poor fellow died and unfortunately was sent to Hell because of too many sins committed in this life.

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However before assigning him to his eternal punishment the Devil took him on a tour of Hell.

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They came to a big pit full of angry people who were trying to climb out of the pit but whenever one got to the top and tried to get out the others would pull him back in.

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Then they came to another pit fully of not-quite-so-angry people also trying to climb out of their pit but when one got close to the top the others would push him up and when he got out he would help pull others out.

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The new arrival asked the Devil:- "Why are the people in this pit so different from those in the other pit?"

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The Devil answered:- "That first pit is full of Poles, they are always so jealous of each other that when one succeeds the others will try to tear him down and make him fail anyway and they are so easy to keep in Hell forever.

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The second pit is full of Jews, they always help each other, and they keep escaping from this place, I can never keep them in here!"

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Cheers!

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Dear Marie

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Thank you for submitting this joke. Let's play a little with it and exchange places of the words Poles and Jews. Now, let's check if the story somehow is not closer to the truth then before? Here is what on that particular subject says well known?

Jewish teacher, poet and dramatist Itzhak Katzenelson, a Polish Jew who survived the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, to be murdered a year later in Auschwitz. During his internment in Vittel, he wrote a requiem for the European Jewry. But he also wrote a poem "O, bólu" (Ou, the pain of mine). As I could not find any English translation of the poem, I did it myself. Forgive me an awkward language. I am not a poet.

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I am the one, who saw that, watched closely,

As children, wives and husbands, and my old gray-haired folks

Like stones and logs on carts executioner was throwing

and beating them without a shade of pity, insulting with inhuman words.

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I was watching through the window, I saw gang of murderers -

Oh, God, I saw beating and beaten, who are going to die

I wrung my hands in shame... shame and disgrace -

Hands of the Jews caused Jews death - helpless Jews!

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Traitors, in shiny boots, who ran along the empty street

As with a swastika on caps - with the shield of David, went mad

With mugs what the word foreign to them hurts, arrogant and wild

They who threw us down the stairs, who dragged us out of homes.

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Who tore the door from frames, violantly inviding, the villains

With the club raised to strike - homes seized with fear,

They beat us, drove elderly, sped our youngest

Somewhere on terrified streets. And they spit straight in the face of God

They were finding us in cabinets and pulled out from under the bed,

and cursed; "Move, to hell, to umschlag, there is your place!"

They dragged all of us from our homes, then they rummage in them for longer,

To take last clothes, a piece of bread and grits.

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And on the street - to go mad! Look and go numb, as here

Still street, one shout has become and horror -?

From stem to stern empty, yet full, as never before -

Wagons! And from despair, and shout, it is hard to wagons...

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In them - Jews. They tear hairs from the heads, wring their hands.

Some are silent - their silence is even louder shout.

They are looking... their eyes... Is that real? Maybe a bad dream and nothing more.

With them, the Jewish police - thugs cruel and wild!

At the side - a German, with a slight smile is looking at them,

German stopped, from afar he looks - he does not interfere,

He causes death of my Jews with Jewish hands!

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I. Kacenelson, Pie?ń o zamordowanym ?ydowskim narodzie, Warszawa 1982, s. 23.

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Now, judge yourself, which of the versions of your joke is closer to the truth, yours or switched?

See, it is not worth to stick to the bad jokes, they do not do any good when published.

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Here are the books, you can buy in the USA, none in english.

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Here is the polish text of the poem

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Jan

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On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

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Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested.

Chaim

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From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:36 PM

To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749

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That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any ani-Jewish views.? As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do, historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation.

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On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the case, please do not try to silence anybody here.? I do not care about what views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years. What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many parts.

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We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex, enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers, tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish.? A lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison. That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is no place for accusation here. We just need to ?know the facts. As prof. Ewa Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of my nation." She was thinking about Poles.

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You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2."

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That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life, tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also, that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it.

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Jan

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On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

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I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group. Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone any good.

Thank you

Chaim Meiersdorf

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From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 11:36 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749

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The History

Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians??

Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject?

None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland.

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For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want.

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As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation.

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- says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him

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I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%).

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Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ?

Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.?

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Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions.

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Jan

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On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

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Bernie,?

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Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.?

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As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions.

Regards

Stefan Wisniowski

Kresy-Siberia Foundation

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On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:

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Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.

He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.

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