Re: Norman Davies and the deportations
Dear?Bob:
?
I don't believe that anyone misquoted you.? We all use the written word in different ways and sometimes we start out with a slightly jocular sentence.? You received a politely worded response that started out in a?jocular vein and ended with information meant to satisfy an implied request.? I certainly hope that you don't find my post negative ... it's not meant as such.? I agree wholeheartedly?that a? thoroughly researched book written by a well-known historian on the subject of the Kresy-Siberia?deportations is sorely needed and would be a blessing.
?
Cordially,
?
Halina
USA
Robert Ambros wrote:
Stefan wrote that I asked: does Norman Davies know ANYTHING on the
deportations to Siberia??
I never asked this question and I do not appreciate the misquote.?
This is what I wrote:
> Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the
deportations
> to Siberia?? This would be a logical continuation of his work.? He
may not
> even be that familiar with the events.? Does anyone in the group
know Norman
> Davies or know how to reach him?
I am familiar with Norman Davies' work and I use God's Playground as
a reference source.? When I write 'familiar' I mean this is an
academic sense.? As a professor of pathology, the author of numerous
scientific publications, and as an editor of an international medical
journal, I understand the exhaustive amount of
research that is
needed to be considered truly familiar with a topic.? The ability to
give a ten minute interview does not qualify.?
The point of my message is that there is an opportunity for someone
such as Norman Davies to fill an obvious void and provide the first
fully documented account of this history in the way that Anne
Applebaum provided the first documented account of the Gulag system
with Gulag: A History.? Such a project would necessitate among other
things, travel to various countries and study a countless number of
documents first hand.
Nor did I state that I wish to personally contact Norman Davies and I
have no intention of contacting him.? My point is that maybe someone
in the group and perhaps representing the group can suggest to him
that there is a growing interest in the topic and witnesses are
rapidly leaving us.
Bob
--- In
Kresy-Siberia@..., Stefan Wisniowski
wrote:
> Bob - does Norman Davies know anything on the deportations to
Siberia?? Is
> the Pope Polish?!
>
> Norman's wife Myshka is from Lwow and he is very familiar with the
events.
> Norman is actually interviewed in the film "A Forgotten Odyssey"
and when we
> premiered it in Sydney just after the Olympics in September 2001,
he sent a
> message to be read on the evening.? Here it is:
>
> Message from Norman Davies
> 21 September 2001
>
> Congratulations on screening Jagna's film which I watched on
History Channel
> last Monday. I have seen it before but it was a moving experience
again.
>
> Our home has a common interest in the subject with Mr Wisniowski.?
The
> parents of my wife, Myszka, like those of Mr Wisniowski, were in
the town of
> Brody near
Lvov when the Soviet Army arrived.? Her father, as an
educated
> man and professional surveyor, was on the list of people to be
deported. He
> only escaped because the NKVD went to arrest him at an old address
from
> which he had removed sometime earlier.
>
> This incident suggests that the Soviet authorities planned for the
> deportations 2 or 3 years before they actually happened.
>
> I hope that the Australian media take note of the film and they
react more
> sensibly than those in London. The BBC included an item about the
film in
> one of its programs but relied on only "expert" information of a
woman from
> LSE who calmly explained the deportations away as a rational
exercise in
> removing "anti-soviet elements", and who forgot to mention that a
similar
> number of human beings perished in the Soviet deportations as
perished in
> Auschwitz.
>
> Serdecznie pozdrawiam,
> Professor Norman Davies
> Author, Europe - A History
>
> Bob I will send you some contact details off-line.
> Regards,
> Stefan Wisniowski
>
>
> > From: "Robert Ambros"
>
> > Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the
deportations
> > to Siberia?? This would be a logical continuation of his work.?
He may not
> > even be that familiar with the events.? Does anyone in the group
know Norman
> > Davies or know how to reach him?
> >
> > Bob
*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
*
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Film and info :
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Re: Russian translation please
Hi Stefan,
I will try to translate Russian into Polish or English.
Helen
Stefan Wisniowski wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello friends
I have recently received some documents in the post from my contact in
deepest Russia (Orenburg), Wanda, regarding the search for my grandfather's
place of death and burial.
Could I anybody help me out with a translation from the Russian into English
(or into Polish)? You can reply off-list to swisniowski@... and I can
send you the scans...
Many thanks
Stefan Wisniowski
*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
*
Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :
*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
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|
Hi,
?
Thanks sooo much for your kind offer. I've lots o
questions I'd like to ask you, but need to get all the 'bumf' together over this
weekend.? I always assumed my father was deported from Lwow, Poland, but,
now I've made contact with his family in Nahaciv, west of Lwow - it appears he
joined the Red Army and was sent to 'Krasnoyarsk', Russia [I'm confused, but
willing to learn]. So, perhaps there are places that I should write?
[conscription?] . Then, we have him joining Anders Army, must have
escaped/deserted? No wonder his Polish Army records didn't contain his REAL
name/religion - so far, 8 years searching!
?
Will talk soon
Thanks again
Linder
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:56
PM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] to Linder
Hi again!
Sorry for not answering. I was away
because of national holidays
here. You were asking for some help with your
Ukrainian reserches. I
think there are members in our K-S group who wrote
to Ukrainian
archives. I know there is something like Association of
archives in
Orienburg (O??¨ª¨¢¨®??). You know what? Ask Stefan Wisniowski in
our
group-he was writing requests to Ukrainian archives. But their
answered him in Russian.Prepare for this and start to learn cyrylic
right now.(lol). Remember-I can help you with translation
russian/ukrainian-english, russian-polish, and variations. I'm
helping
Stefan already. He got recently an answer from them. And my
girlfriend
knows russian very well. She can translate it from
russian/ukrainian into
polish for me and I'll translate it into
english for you. Only if you'd
like some help.
And I live in Katowice. This is in Silesia (south Poland).
Take care!
Gabriel.
*
KRESY-SIBERIA
GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching,
remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and
killed by the Soviet Union during World War
Two."
*
Discussion
site :
Gallery
(photos, documents) :
Film
and info :
*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
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to:
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|
Re: Norman Davies and the deportations
Stefan wrote that I asked: does Norman Davies know ANYTHING on the deportations to Siberia? I never asked this question and I do not appreciate the misquote. This is what I wrote: Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the deportations to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his work. He may not even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone in the group know Norman Davies or know how to reach him? I am familiar with Norman Davies' work and I use God's Playground as a reference source. When I write 'familiar' I mean this is an academic sense. As a professor of pathology, the author of numerous scientific publications, and as an editor of an international medical journal, I understand the exhaustive amount of research that is needed to be considered truly familiar with a topic. The ability to give a ten minute interview does not qualify. The point of my message is that there is an opportunity for someone such as Norman Davies to fill an obvious void and provide the first fully documented account of this history in the way that Anne Applebaum provided the first documented account of the Gulag system with Gulag: A History. Such a project would necessitate among other things, travel to various countries and study a countless number of documents first hand. Nor did I state that I wish to personally contact Norman Davies and I have no intention of contacting him. My point is that maybe someone in the group and perhaps representing the group can suggest to him that there is a growing interest in the topic and witnesses are rapidly leaving us. Bob --- In Kresy-Siberia@..., Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@p...> wrote: Bob - does Norman Davies know anything on the deportations to Siberia? Is the Pope Polish?!
Norman's wife Myshka is from Lwow and he is very familiar with the events. Norman is actually interviewed in the film "A Forgotten Odyssey" and when we premiered it in Sydney just after the Olympics in September 2001, he sent a message to be read on the evening. Here it is:
Message from Norman Davies
21 September 2001
Congratulations on screening Jagna's film which I watched on History Channel last Monday. I have seen it before but it was a moving experience again.
Our home has a common interest in the subject with Mr Wisniowski.
The parents of my wife, Myszka, like those of Mr Wisniowski, were in the town of Brody near Lvov when the Soviet Army arrived. Her father, as an educated man and professional surveyor, was on the list of people to be deported. He only escaped because the NKVD went to arrest him at an old address from which he had removed sometime earlier.
This incident suggests that the Soviet authorities planned for the
deportations 2 or 3 years before they actually happened.
I hope that the Australian media take note of the film and they react more sensibly than those in London. The BBC included an item about the film in one of its programs but relied on only "expert" information of a woman from LSE who calmly explained the deportations away as a rational exercise in removing "anti-soviet elements", and who forgot to mention that a similar number of human beings perished in the Soviet deportations as perished in Auschwitz.
Serdecznie pozdrawiam,
Professor Norman Davies
Author, Europe - A History
Bob I will send you some contact details off-line.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
From: "Robert Ambros" <AmbrosR@m...> Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the deportations to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his work.
He may not even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone in the group
know Norman Davies or know how to reach him?
Bob
|
WELL DONE JAGNA, you are a wonderful Ambassador or
'the cause'
Linder
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 10:02
AM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Norman
Davies
Hi Stefan, George, Robert, and anyone involved in the
memorial/museum project.
I took courage in my hands and called Norman
Davies - and he is
ON!!! Didn't get our mail, but I explained everything,
and he is happy to join forces. The only thing we must be careful of is not to
make him work for it - rather use his name, and then, when the time comes, use
him for speeches and publicity. He is very much an impractical academic and
would hate any idea of being involved in money raising, etc.
Please, send
him another e-mail, maybe preceeding it with smg like: we are so excited,
having heard from Jagna, etc,etc...
And here is another thing, which I find
difficult to keep to myself. My friend asked me for a French version of the
Odyssey, for a Paris publisher for whom she is working. He is very famous,
very well connected, very rich - and at the age of 60 +
is looking for a
worthy cause to support. And, believe it or not, his idee fix is... the first
in the Western world museum to the victims of Soviet oppression!!! When he
heard from Ania of our story, he asked for the film (wanted it NOW) and a
meeting over X-mas holidays, so that we can start plotting - he obviously
needs more knowledge on the subject, his approach is mainly emotional - so the
Polish story can be a sort of 'introduction' (his other link with Poland is
his adopted children). Best of all, Norman Davies agreed to be the patron of
the museum as well! At a discussion with politicians at the Im.War Museum, at
the Odyssey premiere, he told a story of his failed attempt to attract
attention of his fellow academics to the Soviet attrocities. All his efforts
were in vain - almost no one came to a meeting with a few Russian dissidents,
former inmates of the Gulag. So, he too has a 'bee in his bonet' on this
subject - but being almost the only British historian who had enough integrity
to point out the injustice of closing the eyes to the Soviet crimes, he is
quite disliked amongst the British academia - so I am a bit sceptical about
George's optimism as to the 'power' of his name. But let's try.
On second
thoughts, as he is so old fashioned, maybe it is better to write him a
letter?
Good luck,
Jagna
*
KRESY-SIBERIA
GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching,
remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and
killed by the Soviet Union during World War
Two."
*
Discussion
site :
Gallery
(photos, documents) :
Film
and info :
*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you
are and describing your interest in the group
to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...
*
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
Hi again!
Sorry for not answering. I was away because of national holidays
here. You were asking for some help with your Ukrainian reserches. I
think there are members in our K-S group who wrote to Ukrainian
archives. I know there is something like Association of archives in
Orienburg (O??¨ª¨¢¨®??). You know what? Ask Stefan Wisniowski in our
group-he was writing requests to Ukrainian archives. But their
answered him in Russian.Prepare for this and start to learn cyrylic
right now.(lol). Remember-I can help you with translation
russian/ukrainian-english, russian-polish, and variations. I'm
helping Stefan already. He got recently an answer from them. And my
girlfriend knows russian very well. She can translate it from
russian/ukrainian into polish for me and I'll translate it into
english for you. Only if you'd like some help.
And I live in Katowice. This is in Silesia (south Poland).
Take care!
Gabriel.
|
Re: Russian translation please
Hi Stefan,
?
You could try Aleksey? I'm awaiting reply from
him
Linder
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:46
AM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Russian
translation please
Hello friends
I have recently received some
documents in the post from my contact in
deepest Russia (Orenburg), Wanda,
regarding the search for my grandfather's
place of death and
burial.
Could I anybody help me out with a translation from the Russian
into English
(or into Polish)?? You can reply off-list to swisniowski@... and I
can
send you the scans...
Many thanks
Stefan
Wisniowski
*
KRESY-SIBERIA
GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching,
remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and
killed by the Soviet Union during World War
Two."
*
Discussion
site :
Gallery
(photos, documents) :
Film
and info :
*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you
are and describing your interest in the group
to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...
*
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
Wlodawa pre 1939 in Lublin Province
Wlodawa pre 1939?in Lublin Province
?
Hi
I just added new photo album
Wlodawa pre 1939?in Lublin Province
Look at
?
Look also... thousands other pre 1939 photos at
"Alfabet
Polski" - Poland Photos & Maps pre-1945
?
Tomek Wisniewski
Bialystok Poland
|
Chaps Apologies for my silence over recent months which has been occasioned by ill health. Catching up on recent stuff, I've been delighted to read all this, although I'm not sure that Norman Davies should properly be described as an impractical anything. It can be a good disguise, though. re: the almost the only British historian etc, let's not overlook Robert Conquest, whose The Great Terror was published in its original version back in 1968. Admittedly he's primarily former USSR, but his loathing of bolshevism and its legacy is second to none (in fact just about the only good bit in Martin Amis's shoddy little book about Stalin were the descriptions of Conquest and Marty's old man spitting bile over the endless fellow travelers, apologists and crypto-communists who were all denying that any of it had happened, was happening, or would ever happen). Conquest is still at Hoover, and can be reached there: Is it possible to have too many friends. Might be useful to make contact. g ---- Kresy-Siberia@... wrote: Hi Stefan, George, Robert, and anyone involved in the memorial/museum project.
I took courage in my hands and called Norman Davies - and he is
ON!!! Didn't get our mail, but I explained everything, and he is happy to join forces. The only thing we must be careful of is not to make him work for it - rather use his name, and then, when the time comes, use him for speeches and publicity. He is very much an impractical academic and would hate any idea of being involved in money raising, etc.
Please, send him another e-mail, maybe preceeding it with smg like: we are so excited, having heard from Jagna, etc,etc...
And here is another thing, which I find difficult to keep to myself. My friend asked me for a French version of the Odyssey, for a Paris publisher for whom she is working. He is very famous, very well connected, very rich - and at the age of 60 +
is looking for a worthy cause to support. And, believe it or not, his idee fix is... the first in the Western world museum to the victims of Soviet oppression!!! When he heard from Ania of our story, he asked for the film (wanted it NOW) and a meeting over X-mas holidays, so that we can start plotting - he obviously needs more knowledge on the subject, his approach is mainly emotional - so the Polish story can be a sort of 'introduction' (his other link with Poland is his adopted children). Best of all, Norman Davies agreed to be the patron of the museum as well! At a discussion with politicians at the Im.War Museum, at the Odyssey premiere, he told a story of his failed attempt to attract attention of his fellow academics to the Soviet attrocities. All his efforts were in vain - almost no one came to a meeting with a few Russian dissidents, former inmates of the Gulag. So, he too has a 'bee in his bonet' on this subject - but being almost the only British historian who had enough integrity to point out the injustice of closing the eyes to the Soviet crimes, he is quite disliked amongst the British academia - so I am a bit sceptical about George's optimism as to the 'power' of his name. But let's try.
On second thoughts, as he is so old fashioned, maybe it is better to write him a letter?
Good luck,
Jagna
*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
*
Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :
*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...
*
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Graham Sanders 39 St Paul Street London N1 7DJ 020 7226 3353 0777 1760 999 www.grahamsanders.com/polishspirithome.htm g@... London, Worthing & Kyrenia ** * *** This communication contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that it may be unlawful to copy this communication for any purpose, or disclose any part of it, or the information in it, to any other person. Internet communications are not secure and therefore we do not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message as it has been transmitted over a public network. If you suspect the message may have been intercepted or amended, please call the sender. If you have received this email in error please contact the IT Department on 020 7226 3353. ** * IMPORTANT: This email is intended for the use of the individual addressee(s) named above and may contain information that is confidential privileged or unsuitable for overly sensitive persons with low self-esteem, no sense of humour or irrational religious beliefs. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is not authorised (either explicitly or implicitly) and constitutes an irritating social faux pas. Unless the word absquatulation has been used in its correct context somewhere other than in this warning, it does not have any legal or grammatical use and may be ignored. No animals were harmed in the transmission of this email, although the siamese next door is living on borrowed time, let me tell you. Those of you with an overwhelming fear of the unknown will be gratified to learn that there is no hidden message revealed by reading this warning backwards, so just ignore that Alert Notice from Microsoft. However, by pouring a complete circle of salt around yourself and your computer you can ensure that no harm befalls you and your pets. If you have received this email in error, please add some nutmeg and egg whites and place it in a warm oven for 40 minutes. Whisk briefly and let it stand for 2 hours before icing. This E-Mail has been brought to you by the number 3.
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Hi Stefan, George, Robert, and anyone involved in the memorial/museum project.
I took courage in my hands and called Norman Davies - and he is
ON!!! Didn't get our mail, but I explained everything, and he is happy to join forces. The only thing we must be careful of is not to make him work for it - rather use his name, and then, when the time comes, use him for speeches and publicity. He is very much an impractical academic and would hate any idea of being involved in money raising, etc.
Please, send him another e-mail, maybe preceeding it with smg like: we are so excited, having heard from Jagna, etc,etc...
And here is another thing, which I find difficult to keep to myself. My friend asked me for a French version of the Odyssey, for a Paris publisher for whom she is working. He is very famous, very well connected, very rich - and at the age of 60 +
is looking for a worthy cause to support. And, believe it or not, his idee fix is... the first in the Western world museum to the victims of Soviet oppression!!! When he heard from Ania of our story, he asked for the film (wanted it NOW) and a meeting over X-mas holidays, so that we can start plotting - he obviously needs more knowledge on the subject, his approach is mainly emotional - so the Polish story can be a sort of 'introduction' (his other link with Poland is his adopted children). Best of all, Norman Davies agreed to be the patron of the museum as well! At a discussion with politicians at the Im.War Museum, at the Odyssey premiere, he told a story of his failed attempt to attract attention of his fellow academics to the Soviet attrocities. All his efforts were in vain - almost no one came to a meeting with a few Russian dissidents, former inmates of the Gulag. So, he too has a 'bee in his bonet' on this subject - but being almost the only British historian who had enough integrity to point out the injustice of closing the eyes to the Soviet crimes, he is quite disliked amongst the British academia - so I am a bit sceptical about George's optimism as to the 'power' of his name. But let's try.
On second thoughts, as he is so old fashioned, maybe it is better to write him a letter?
Good luck,
Jagna
|
Russian translation please
Hello friends
I have recently received some documents in the post from my contact in
deepest Russia (Orenburg), Wanda, regarding the search for my grandfather's
place of death and burial.
Could I anybody help me out with a translation from the Russian into English
(or into Polish)? You can reply off-list to swisniowski@... and I can
send you the scans...
Many thanks
Stefan Wisniowski
|
Re: desertion thing in Palestine
Leszek,
Please review the message logs for an extensive discussion of this about a month or two ago. ?Read Harvey Sarner's extensive examination of this. ?Read Anders' own book. ?
The Polish-Jewish soldiers primarily deserted to fight for Israeli independence, not die to cowardice or anti-semitism. ?The desertions were de facto sanctioned by the Polish command and were rarely if ever punished (much to the annoyance of the British military who became the initial target of Jewish militants). ?Any anti-semitic behaviour amongst non-Jewish Polish soldiers prior to that may have been annoying or distressing, but would not be a reason to desert. ?The occasional claims by some deserters that the army itself was an anti-semitic organisation do not stand up to serious scrutiny.
Stefan Wisniowski
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Lech Lesiak
I would like to get a better understanding of what the
whole desertion thing in Palestine was about[...]
Czesc,
Leszek
|
--- Tilford Bartman <bartmant@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
They said that there was a big "going away" party
for him on the night before he deserted in Palestine,
and that it was
attended by mostly non-Jewish Poles.
End quote
I would like to get a better understanding of what the
whole desertion thing in Palestine was about. All
know if it is that 75% of the Polish Jews who came to
Palestine with Anders left the Polish army.
I've heard different stories that they did it because
of anti-semitism, that Anders aided and abetted their
leaving, that majority of the doctors were Jews and
mostly stayed with Anders.
I really don't have a good grasp on the matter as
compared to, for example, the Warsaw uprising of 44.
If anyone can direct me to resources that explain this
little known aspect of WWII history, I would
appreciate it.
Czesc,
Leszek
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now!
|
Re: Norman Davies and the deportations
Bob - does Norman Davies know anything on the deportations to Siberia? ?Is the Pope Polish?!
Norman's wife Myshka is from Lwow and he is very familiar with the events. ?Norman is actually interviewed in the film "A Forgotten Odyssey" and when we premiered it in Sydney just after the Olympics in September 2001, he sent a message to be read on the evening. ?Here it is:
Message from Norman Davies
21 September 2001
Congratulations on screening Jagna's film which I watched on History Channel last Monday. I have seen it before but it was a moving experience again.
Our home has a common interest in the subject with Mr Wisniowski. ?The parents of my wife, Myszka, like those of Mr Wisniowski, were in the town of Brody near Lvov when the Soviet Army arrived. ?Her father, as an educated man and professional surveyor, was on the list of people to be deported. He only escaped because the NKVD went to arrest him at an old address from which he had removed sometime earlier.
This incident suggests that the Soviet authorities planned for the deportations 2 or 3 years before they actually happened.
I hope that the Australian media take note of the film and they react more sensibly than those in London. The BBC included an item about the film in one of its programs but relied on only "expert" information of a woman from LSE who calmly explained the deportations away as a rational exercise in removing "anti-soviet elements", and who forgot to mention that a similar number of human beings perished in the Soviet deportations as perished in Auschwitz.
Serdecznie pozdrawiam,
Professor Norman Davies
Author, Europe - A History
Bob I will send you some contact details off-line.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
> From: "Robert Ambros"
> Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the deportations
> to Siberia? ?This would be a logical continuation of his work. ?He may not
> even be that familiar with the events. ?Does anyone in the group know Norman
> Davies or know how to reach him?
>
> Bob
|
Re: Location of Polish Cemetery, Tehran
Stephen
I have forwarded this to the Kresy-Siberia Group for the members' consideration and if any of them would like to request photos of their families graves in Iran. ?Our member Wladyslaw Czapski was there last year, as I mentioned.
My most recent contact info was:
Embassy of the Republic of Poland
Africa Expressway, Pirouz Str. 1/3
P.O. Box 11365-3489
19-174 Teheran
Iran.
Phone: (0-09821) 8787-262/4
Fax: (0-09821) 8788-774
Email: ambrpiri@...
But like you, I never received an e-mail response.
Best wishes for a great trip to Iran!
Regards
Stefan Wisniowski
> From: "Stephan Landis"
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:48:03 -0500
> To: swisniowski@...
> Subject: Re: Location of Polish Cemetery, Tehran
>
> Thank you, Stefan, for the note. I still have had difficulty in gettng any
> e-mail reply from the Polish Embassy in Tehran, and my travel arrangements
> are "a go" for Nov 24, assuming the visa comes through in time. I read the
> note about your young aunt and saw the letter from the Embassy to you. Do
> you have a fax number for them ? I have not tried that route yet. Have any
> of the people on the "Forgotten Odyssey" chat group been to the Cemetery,
> and would they share the precise location in the city ? Given that it will
> be Eid al Fitr, the post-Ramadan holiday in Iran, when we go, we may not
> have much success about contacting officials regarding the spelling of your
> aunt's name. But we shall investigate who does take care of that cemetery.
> Anybody want a photo of a key headstone, if feasible ?? Frankly, we are not
> sure what to expect. Maybe some broad shots of the area might be of interest
> to you or your group.
>
> Best wishes, Stephan Landis
>
> PS: I did receive a fax last year from a lady at Stanford University who
> "mined" the Hoover Institute data base and pulled out a document signed by
> my father in about 1943, when he left Russia. If he was still alive today,
> he would have been "blown away" to see such a note. My mother confirmed his
> signature. I have quite a number of letters from those days, including
> several from my grandfather, sentenced to the Arctic Russian work camps. I
> need to see his Tehran gravesite to bring the family story to closure, and
> to offer my children a sense of their past Polish heritage.
>
>
>> From: Stefan Wisniowski
>> To: Stephan Landis
>> Subject: Re: Location of Polish Cemetery, Tehran
>> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:34:18 +1100
>>
>> Stephen
>> It is in "DULAB". ?See photos at
>> http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album10
>>
>> By the way, I have some information on three people who passed through
>> Teheran:
>> Szuszkiewicz, Antoni (son of Jan, born in 1921 in Tarnopol province)
>> Szuszkiewicz, Franciszek (son of Kazimierz , born in 1895 in Wilno
>> province)
>> Szuszkiewicz, Piotr ???(son of Jan, born in 1898 or 1900 in Lwow)
>>
>> Any relations?
>>
>> Can you do me a favour?
>> The tombstone of my aunt "KAZIMIERA WISNIOWSKA" has two errors on it: ?Her
>> name, and her birthdate. ?You can see the details on my webpage at
>> http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=albuo11
>>
>> The trick is - who to contact regarding making a correction? ?Perhaps when
>> you are there you can figure something out...
>>
>> Let me know if you need further information or if it would be useful to
>> make contact with some people who actually were there a few months ago.....
>>
>> And by the way, have I invited you to join the Kresy-Siberia Group of
>> people in touch with this history?
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>>> From: "Stephan Landis"
>>> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:12:59 -0500
>>> To: swisniowski@...
>>> Subject: Location of Polish Cemetery, Tehran
>>>
>>> Hello, Mr. Wisniowski, I have been intermittently following the Forgotten
>>> Odyssey website, and am presently living in the United Arab Emirates. I am
>>> planning to visit Tehran later this month and wonder whether you or someone
>>> from the discussion group knows the exact location of the Polish/Catholic
>>> Cemetery in Tehran. I have not been able to get a response from the Polish
>>> Embassy in Tehran nor find its location on the Web.
>>>
>>> I will be the first in the family to visit my grandfather's grave in 60
>>> years. Any help is most appreciated.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Dr. Stephan Landis (Szuszkiewicz),
>>> Shaikh Khalifa Medical Centre,
>>> PO Box 51900,
>>> Abu Dhabi, UAE
>>>
>>> E-mail: stephan_landis@...
|
Tilford, thank you for sharing this uplifting account of your trip.
Stefan Wisniowski
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Show quoted text
From: Tilford Bartman
Moshe Abramitski was in the Anders Army. [...]
They said that there was a big "going away" party
for him on the night before he deserted in Palestine, and that it was attended by mostly non-Jewish Poles. [...]
|
Hi,
A few weeks ago I spent a week in Israel and for the first time met my cousins whose father Moshe Abramitski was in the Anders Army. I asked them if their father ever said anything about anti semitism in the Anders Army. They told me that their father was very popular with everyone due to his reputation for being able to procure vodka under the most difficult of circumstances. They said he ever mentioned any anti s semitic incidents. They said that there was a big "going away" party for him on the night before he deserted in Palestine, and that it was attended by mostly non-Jewish Poles.
They also mentioned that in Siberia he survived because he was trained very well as a barber, and was able to convince a Russian to employ him in this way cutting the hair of the Russians.
He ended up fighting in the Palmach in Israel's War of Independence. He and six other fighters with their families were sent to a large stone home on the exposed edge of a Jewish neighborhood in Jerusalem. They were told they could live there but would have to defend it. They were under periodic fire from a Arab area just up a hill. They successfully defended this position. Today his wife still lives in that house! She has left two of the bullet holes and I got video of them. Today the home is in the middle of a very nice thriving modern neighborhood that stretches for many, many blocks.
Also for those who may be interested I was in Israel primarily to attended a ceremony for the Polish family that saved the only member of my grandmother's family to remain in Poland during the war to survive. They also saved three of his friends. This family was added to the wall of Polish holocaust rescuers. The families surviving daughter and her two sons attended. If was a very interesting and moving event. We hired a guide and took them on a tour of Jerusalem that included all the stations of the cross.
Tilford Bartman
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Re: Norman Davies and the deportations
Norman Davies is Emeritus Professor of History at the University of London
and a Fellow of Wolfson College, Oxford.
He has written several books about Poland and Europe. His wife is from
the Kresy region (I believe.)
He is certainly someone it would be good to have supporting our cause.
George Neisser
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Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the <BR>
deportations to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his <BR>
work. He may not even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone <BR>
in the group know Norman Davies or know how to reach him?<BR>
<BR>
Bob<BR>
<BR>
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KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION<BR>
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deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."<BR>
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Manchester UK M13 9PL
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Norman Davies and the deportations
Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the
deportations to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his
work. He may not even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone
in the group know Norman Davies or know how to reach him?
Bob
|
Guardian Unlimited Books Review Norman Davies on our war debt to Poland.htm
?
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In this section
Critical eye: Life after
Diana and Bridget
Jean Moorcroft Wilson on
Isaac Rosenberg
Norman Davies on our war debt
to Poland
Bibliophile: Nov 8
Review: Seven Wonders of the
Industrial World by Deborah Cadbury
Review: Bacchus by Andrew
Dalby
Review: The Lives of the
Muses by Francine Prose
Charles V on Horseback,
Titian (c1548)
Oliver Ford Davies on Oliver
Cromwell
Review: Last Car to Elysian
Fields by James Lee Burke
|
|
Comment
Lest we forget
Britain's failure to
recognise Poland's wartime sacrifices is shameful, argues Norman
Davies
Saturday November 8, 2003
In Britain, we continue to honour
Remembrance Day every eleventh of November and we think that we remember
all those who gave their lives in two world wars for our peace and
freedom. It is a sentimental occasion when we eagerly remember our own and
rarely stop to think who "all those" actually were. For we did not win
alone. We were fortunate to have many allies, some of whom were called on
to make sacrifices considerably greater than our own.
November 11 also marks the day in 1918 when Poland regained its
independence after 127 years of foreign rule, that independence which, in
1939, Britain formally agreed to uphold and which provided the occasion
for our declaration of war on Nazi Gemany. For six years, Poland was
Britain's "first ally". Polish squadrons tipped the balance in the Battle
of Britain. Polish cryptographers were first to break the Enigma code.
Polish divisions fought alongside us at Narvik, Tobruk, Monte Cassino,
Arnhem and in Normandy. Poland's underground resistance movement, the Home
Army (AK), was the first and largest client of our Special Operations
Executive.
By 1945, our Polish allies had lost at least six million of their
people - half Jewish and half Catholic. But their sacrificies were largely
ignored. No place was found for them in our grand post-war victory parade.
And the Imperial War Museum has ignored requests to organise a display to
mark a key event in Poland's contribution to the allied effort, although
commemorative exhibitions are planned in Paris, Berlin and Warsaw.
The critical moment in this tragic story was August 1, 1944 - the
outbreak of the Warsaw rising. The Varsovians, who had already endured
five years of Nazi savagery, including the brutal suppression of the
Ghetto uprising of 1943, decided to co-ordinate their insurgency with the
advance of an allied army: 40,000-50,000 half-armed men and woman answered
the call to attack the Wehrmacht and SS. They included a more numerous
contingent of Jewish fighters than had fought in the Ghetto uprising.
Their hopes were boosted by promises that Stalin would settle all
differences with the Soviets and by the activity of SOE, which was flying
in men and supplies to the very last day and which, in the face of Foreign
Office opposition, urged Churchill to provide all assistance.
They expected to hold out for two to six days, and their calculations
were not far out. Marshal Rokossovskys's original orders were to put the
Soviet Army into Warsaw by August 2. When repelled by the fierce
counter-atack of four German Panzer divisions, he submitted a revised plan
dated August 8 that proposed the early relief of Warsaw and a colossal
drive towards Berlin.
At this point, the rising began to unravel. The SS drafted in heavy
reinforcements. Stalin ignored the Polish premier's pleas for a compromise
solution; rejected Rokossovsky's revised plan; transferred Soviet reserves
to the Balkan Front; described the rising as a "criminal adventure"; and
refused landing rights to the RAF Squadron which Churchill had ordered to
supply Warsaw from southern Italy.
Warsaw, in consequence, bled to death. With brilliant ingenuity and
daring, the Home Army held off the SS for weeks. Germans talked of a
second Stalingrad. But civilians were dying at the rate of 2,000 a day.
Incessant bombardments reduced the city to rubble. Western aid was
woefully inadequate, scores of British, South African, Canadian and Polish
aircrews died in vain and the Soviets stood still, eventually watching the
battle from across the river. After 66 days, the insurgents capitulated
and Warsaw's ruins were razed to the ground.
The Polish commander-in-chief, General Sosnkowski, who had personally
advised against the rising, was left to beg his British counterparts for a
greater sense of urgency. He was not allowed to take control of the Pol
ish Parachute Brigade which had been trained in England for service in
Warsaw.
Not for the first or last time, the Poles were left alone with their
poetry:
The blood has soaked the sand, but your spirit survives.
It isn't true. The spirit can die as well.
Serpents slither between the marbles of your House
And the wind blows spirals of sand about the ruins of Hellas
(Antoni Slonimski)
Next year the Imperial War Museum is launching an exhibition on "Women
at War". Nothing would be more suitable than a tribute to the heroines of
Warsaw - to Elizabeth "Zo", who was parachuted in by SOE, to Krystyna K,
the model for Warsaw's Syren statue, who was shot dead whilst rescuing a
wounded comrade or to the thousands of underground nurses and couriers.
After the war, all public memory of the Warsaw rising was suppressed in
the Soviet bloc. The last commander of the AK, General Okulicki, who had
been flown into occupied Poland by the RAF, ended up in a show trial in
Moscow for "illegal activities". Thousands of colleagues perished in the
Gulag or in communist jails. Though a fine monument was raised to the
Heroes of the Ghetto in 1947, no memorial to the Warsaw rising was
permitted until 1989. When Chancellor Brandt travelled to Warsaw in 1970
to pay Germany's penance to Poland, there was still no memorial.
The Warsaw rising did not feature in the Nuremburg tribunals. It would
have outraged the Soviets and embarrassed the western powers. Instead, SS
General Erich Von dem Bach, the butcher of Warsaw and a notorious murderer
in the campaign against Soviet partisans, was used as a witness for the
prosecution. He escaped scot free.
The exclusion of the Poles from Britain's 1945 victory parade in
contrast, may charitably be attributed to muddle. Though the Polish
government, our exiled wartime ally, was still in London, invitations were
sent to the communist regime in Warsaw. When no response was forthcoming,
Ernest Bevin saw the mistake and sent a last-minute apology to Poland's
General Anders, living in exile in England. There was no chance to form a
contingent. In any case, the Poles knew that for them the war had ended in
unmistakable defeat. In Poland, the communists had abolished Independence
Day, and replaced it by a so called National Day that celebrated their own
accession to power in 1944. In Britain, meanwhile, the survivors of the
Warsaw rising who had made their way to our shores after release from
German camps, were being refused war pensions.
So, yes we should remember every one of those who died.
¡¤ Rising '44 - The Battle for Warsaw by Norman Davies is
published by Macmillan, ?25.
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