From: "Michael Adamski"
[...] asked him whether ever he intends to write a book on Soviet deportations of people from Eastern Poland to Siberia. His answer was that presently he did not have such a plan, but ?accepting our film on that subject and not excluded such possibility for the future.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Kresy-Siberia@...>
To: <Kresy-Siberia@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 4:56 AM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Digest Number 771



*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
*
Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :
*
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Norman Davies
From: Graham Sanders <g@...>
2. to Linder
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>
3. Re: Russian translation please
From: "ladbrooke" <ladbrooke@...>
4. Re: Norman Davies
From: "ladbrooke" <ladbrooke@...>
5. Wlodawa pre 1939 in Lublin Province
From: Tomasz Winiewski <tomy@...>
6. Re: Norman Davies and the deportations
From: "Robert Ambros" <AmbrosR@...>
7. Re: to Linder
From: "ladbrooke" <ladbrooke@...>
8. Re: Russian translation please
From: helen tarnowski <niki@...>
9. Re: Re: Norman Davies and the deportations
From: Halina Trevelyan <hjtrevelyan@...>
10. Re: desertion thing in Palestine
From: Lech Lesiak <lech_lesiak@...>
11. Re: desertion thing in Palestine
From: "Paul Havers" <haverp@...>
12. Russian documents
From: James Wilson <polishroots2003@...>
13. Ukraine Archives - Translation
From: "Ken Fedzin" <ken.fedzin@...>
14. Re: Julian Plowy update
From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
15. Re: Julian Plowy update - house photo
From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
16. Jews in Anders Army
From: "feb10transport" <richpna@...>
17. Re: Norman Davies and the deportations
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>
18. Re: Ukraine Archives - Translation
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>
19. Re: Russian documents
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:36:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Graham Sanders <g@...>
Subject: Re: Norman Davies

Chaps

Apologies for my silence over recent months which has been occasioned by ill
health.

Catching up on recent stuff, I've been delighted to read all this, although
I'm not sure that Norman Davies should properly be described as an
impractical anything. It can be a good disguise, though.

re: the almost the only British historian etc, let's not overlook Robert
Conquest, whose The Great Terror was published in its original version back
in 1968. Admittedly he's primarily former USSR, but his loathing of
bolshevism and its legacy is second to none (in fact just about the only
good bit in Martin Amis's shoddy little book about Stalin were the
descriptions of Conquest and Marty's old man spitting bile over the endless
fellow travelers, apologists and crypto-communists who were all denying that
any of it had happened, was happening, or would ever happen). Conquest is
still at Hoover, and can be reached there:



Is it possible to have too many friends. Might be useful to make contact.

g

---- Kresy-Siberia@... wrote:

Hi Stefan, George, Robert, and anyone involved in the memorial/museum

project.

I took courage in my hands and called Norman Davies - and he is
ON!!! Didn't get our mail, but I explained everything, and he is happy to

join forces. The only thing we must be careful of is not to make him work
for it - rather use his name, and then, when the time comes, use him for
speeches and publicity. He is very much an impractical academic and would
hate any idea of being involved in money raising, etc.

Please, send him another e-mail, maybe preceeding it with smg like: we are

so excited, having heard from Jagna, etc,etc...

And here is another thing, which I find difficult to keep to myself. My

friend asked me for a French version of the Odyssey, for a Paris publisher
for whom she is working. He is very famous, very well connected, very rich -
and at the age of 60 +

is looking for a worthy cause to support. And, believe it or not, his idee

fix is... the first in the Western world museum to the victims of Soviet
oppression!!! When he heard from Ania of our story, he asked for the film
(wanted it NOW) and a meeting over X-mas holidays, so that we can start
plotting - he obviously needs more knowledge on the subject, his approach is
mainly emotional - so the Polish story can be a sort of 'introduction' (his
other link with Poland is his adopted children). Best of all, Norman Davies
agreed to be the patron of the museum as well! At a discussion with
politicians at the Im.War Museum, at the Odyssey premiere, he told a story
of his failed attempt to attract attention of his fellow academics to the
Soviet attrocities. All his efforts were in vain - almost no one came to a
meeting with a few Russian dissidents, former inmates of the Gulag. So, he
too has a 'bee in his bonet' on this subject - but being almost the only
British historian who had enough integrity to point out the injustice of
closing the eyes to the Soviet crimes, he is quite disliked amongst the
British academia - so I am a bit sceptical about George's optimism as to the
'power' of his name. But let's try.

On second thoughts, as he is so old fashioned, maybe it is better to write

him a letter?

Good luck,
Jagna

*

KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish

citizens

deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."

*

Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :

*

To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
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*

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Graham Sanders


39 St Paul Street
London N1 7DJ

020 7226 3353
0777 1760 999

www.grahamsanders.com/polishspirithome.htm

g@...

London, Worthing & Kyrenia

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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:56:32 -0000
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>
Subject: to Linder

Hi again!

Sorry for not answering. I was away because of national holidays
here. You were asking for some help with your Ukrainian reserches. I
think there are members in our K-S group who wrote to Ukrainian
archives. I know there is something like Association of archives in
Orienburg (O). You know what? Ask Stefan Wisniowski in our
group-he was writing requests to Ukrainian archives. But their
answered him in Russian.Prepare for this and start to learn cyrylic
right now.(lol). Remember-I can help you with translation
russian/ukrainian-english, russian-polish, and variations. I'm
helping Stefan already. He got recently an answer from them. And my
girlfriend knows russian very well. She can translate it from
russian/ukrainian into polish for me and I'll translate it into
english for you. Only if you'd like some help.
And I live in Katowice. This is in Silesia (south Poland).
Take care!
Gabriel.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:52:56 -0000
From: "ladbrooke" <ladbrooke@...>
Subject: Re: Russian translation please

Hi Stefan,

You could try Aleksey? I'm awaiting reply from him
Linder
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Wisniowski
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Russian translation please


Hello friends

I have recently received some documents in the post from my contact in
deepest Russia (Orenburg), Wanda, regarding the search for my
grandfather's
place of death and burial.

Could I anybody help me out with a translation from the Russian into
English
(or into Polish)? You can reply off-list to swisniowski@... and I
can
send you the scans...

Many thanks
Stefan Wisniowski



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."

*
Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :

*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...

*


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[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:03:58 -0000
From: "ladbrooke" <ladbrooke@...>
Subject: Re: Norman Davies

WELL DONE JAGNA, you are a wonderful Ambassador or 'the cause'
Linder
----- Original Message -----
From: jagna8@...
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 10:02 AM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Norman Davies


Hi Stefan, George, Robert, and anyone involved in the memorial/museum
project.
I took courage in my hands and called Norman Davies - and he is
ON!!! Didn't get our mail, but I explained everything, and he is happy to
join forces. The only thing we must be careful of is not to make him work
for it - rather use his name, and then, when the time comes, use him for
speeches and publicity. He is very much an impractical academic and would
hate any idea of being involved in money raising, etc.
Please, send him another e-mail, maybe preceeding it with smg like: we are
so excited, having heard from Jagna, etc,etc...
And here is another thing, which I find difficult to keep to myself. My
friend asked me for a French version of the Odyssey, for a Paris publisher
for whom she is working. He is very famous, very well connected, very rich -
and at the age of 60 +
is looking for a worthy cause to support. And, believe it or not, his idee
fix is... the first in the Western world museum to the victims of Soviet
oppression!!! When he heard from Ania of our story, he asked for the film
(wanted it NOW) and a meeting over X-mas holidays, so that we can start
plotting - he obviously needs more knowledge on the subject, his approach is
mainly emotional - so the Polish story can be a sort of 'introduction' (his
other link with Poland is his adopted children). Best of all, Norman Davies
agreed to be the patron of the museum as well! At a discussion with
politicians at the Im.War Museum, at the Odyssey premiere, he told a story
of his failed attempt to attract attention of his fellow academics to the
Soviet attrocities. All his efforts were in vain - almost no one came to a
meeting with a few Russian dissidents, former inmates of the Gulag. So, he
too has a 'bee in his bonet' on this subject - but being almost the only
British historian who had enough integrity to point out the injustice of
closing the eyes to the Soviet crimes, he is quite disliked amongst the
British academia - so I am a bit sceptical about George's optimism as to the
'power' of his name. But let's try.
On second thoughts, as he is so old fashioned, maybe it is better to write
him a letter?
Good luck,
Jagna

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor




*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."

*
Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :

*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...

*


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[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:08:12 +0100
From: Tomasz Winiewski <tomy@...>
Subject: Wlodawa pre 1939 in Lublin Province

Wlodawa pre 1939 in Lublin Province

Hi
I just added new photo album
Wlodawa pre 1939 in Lublin Province
Look at


Look also... thousands other pre 1939 photos at
www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/albums.php
"Alfabet Polski" - Poland Photos & Maps pre-1945


Tomek Wisniewski
Bialystok Poland
www.kolodno-holiday.com

[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:14:22 -0000
From: "Robert Ambros" <AmbrosR@...>
Subject: Re: Norman Davies and the deportations


Stefan wrote that I asked: does Norman Davies know ANYTHING on the
deportations to Siberia?

I never asked this question and I do not appreciate the misquote.
This is what I wrote:

Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the

deportations

to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his work. He

may not

even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone in the group

know Norman

Davies or know how to reach him?

I am familiar with Norman Davies' work and I use God's Playground as
a reference source. When I write 'familiar' I mean this is an
academic sense. As a professor of pathology, the author of numerous
scientific publications, and as an editor of an international medical
journal, I understand the exhaustive amount of research that is
needed to be considered truly familiar with a topic. The ability to
give a ten minute interview does not qualify.

The point of my message is that there is an opportunity for someone
such as Norman Davies to fill an obvious void and provide the first
fully documented account of this history in the way that Anne
Applebaum provided the first documented account of the Gulag system
with Gulag: A History. Such a project would necessitate among other
things, travel to various countries and study a countless number of
documents first hand.

Nor did I state that I wish to personally contact Norman Davies and I
have no intention of contacting him. My point is that maybe someone
in the group and perhaps representing the group can suggest to him
that there is a growing interest in the topic and witnesses are
rapidly leaving us.

Bob





--- In Kresy-Siberia@..., Stefan Wisniowski
<swisniowski@p...> wrote:

Bob - does Norman Davies know anything on the deportations to

Siberia? Is

the Pope Polish?!

Norman's wife Myshka is from Lwow and he is very familiar with the

events.

Norman is actually interviewed in the film "A Forgotten Odyssey"

and when we

premiered it in Sydney just after the Olympics in September 2001,

he sent a

message to be read on the evening. Here it is:

Message from Norman Davies
21 September 2001

Congratulations on screening Jagna's film which I watched on

History Channel

last Monday. I have seen it before but it was a moving experience

again.

Our home has a common interest in the subject with Mr Wisniowski.

The

parents of my wife, Myszka, like those of Mr Wisniowski, were in

the town of

Brody near Lvov when the Soviet Army arrived. Her father, as an

educated

man and professional surveyor, was on the list of people to be

deported. He

only escaped because the NKVD went to arrest him at an old address

from

which he had removed sometime earlier.

This incident suggests that the Soviet authorities planned for the
deportations 2 or 3 years before they actually happened.

I hope that the Australian media take note of the film and they

react more

sensibly than those in London. The BBC included an item about the

film in

one of its programs but relied on only "expert" information of a

woman from

LSE who calmly explained the deportations away as a rational

exercise in

removing "anti-soviet elements", and who forgot to mention that a

similar

number of human beings perished in the Soviet deportations as

perished in

Auschwitz.

Serdecznie pozdrawiam,
Professor Norman Davies
Author, Europe - A History

Bob I will send you some contact details off-line.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski

From: "Robert Ambros" <AmbrosR@m...>

Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the

deportations

to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his work.

He may not

even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone in the group

know Norman

Davies or know how to reach him?

Bob

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:22:07 -0000
From: "ladbrooke" <ladbrooke@...>
Subject: Re: to Linder

Hi,

Thanks sooo much for your kind offer. I've lots o questions I'd like to ask
you, but need to get all the 'bumf' together over this weekend. I always
assumed my father was deported from Lwow, Poland, but, now I've made contact
with his family in Nahaciv, west of Lwow - it appears he joined the Red Army
and was sent to 'Krasnoyarsk', Russia [I'm confused, but willing to learn].
So, perhaps there are places that I should write? [conscription?] . Then, we
have him joining Anders Army, must have escaped/deserted? No wonder his
Polish Army records didn't contain his REAL name/religion - so far, 8 years
searching!

Will talk soon
Thanks again
Linder
----- Original Message -----
From: razelsmith
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:56 PM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] to Linder


Hi again!

Sorry for not answering. I was away because of national holidays
here. You were asking for some help with your Ukrainian reserches. I
think there are members in our K-S group who wrote to Ukrainian
archives. I know there is something like Association of archives in
Orienburg (O). You know what? Ask Stefan Wisniowski in our
group-he was writing requests to Ukrainian archives. But their
answered him in Russian.Prepare for this and start to learn cyrylic
right now.(lol). Remember-I can help you with translation
russian/ukrainian-english, russian-polish, and variations. I'm
helping Stefan already. He got recently an answer from them. And my
girlfriend knows russian very well. She can translate it from
russian/ukrainian into polish for me and I'll translate it into
english for you. Only if you'd like some help.
And I live in Katowice. This is in Silesia (south Poland).
Take care!
Gabriel.


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."

*
Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :

*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...

*


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[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:02:06 -0600
From: helen tarnowski <niki@...>
Subject: Re: Russian translation please

Hi Stefan,
I will try to translate Russian into Polish or English.
Helen

Stefan Wisniowski wrote:

Hello friends

I have recently received some documents in the post from my contact in
deepest Russia (Orenburg), Wanda, regarding the search for my

grandfather's

place of death and burial.

Could I anybody help me out with a translation from the Russian into

English

(or into Polish)? You can reply off-list to swisniowski@... and I

can

send you the scans...

Many thanks
Stefan Wisniowski

*

KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish

citizens

deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."

*

Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :

*

To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...

*

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:38:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Halina Trevelyan <hjtrevelyan@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Norman Davies and the deportations

Dear Bob:

I don't believe that anyone misquoted you. We all use the written word in
different ways and sometimes we start out with a slightly jocular sentence.
You received a politely worded response that started out in a jocular vein
and ended with information meant to satisfy an implied request. I certainly
hope that you don't find my post negative ... it's not meant as such. I
agree wholeheartedly that a thoroughly researched book written by a
well-known historian on the subject of the Kresy-Siberia deportations is
sorely needed and would be a blessing.

Cordially,

Halina
USA


Robert Ambros <AmbrosR@...> wrote:

Stefan wrote that I asked: does Norman Davies know ANYTHING on the
deportations to Siberia?

I never asked this question and I do not appreciate the misquote.
This is what I wrote:

Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the

deportations

to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his work. He

may not

even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone in the group

know Norman

Davies or know how to reach him?

I am familiar with Norman Davies' work and I use God's Playground as
a reference source. When I write 'familiar' I mean this is an
academic sense. As a professor of pathology, the author of numerous
scientific publications, and as an editor of an international medical
journal, I understand the exhaustive amount of research that is
needed to be considered truly familiar with a topic. The ability to
give a ten minute interview does not qualify.

The point of my message is that there is an opportunity for someone
such as Norman Davies to fill an obvious void and provide the first
fully documented account of this history in the way that Anne
Applebaum provided the first documented account of the Gulag system
with Gulag: A History. Such a project would necessitate among other
things, travel to various countries and study a countless number of
documents first hand.

Nor did I state that I wish to personally contact Norman Davies and I
have no intention of contacting him. My point is that maybe someone
in the group and perhaps representing the group can suggest to him
that there is a growing interest in the topic and witnesses are
rapidly leaving us.

Bob





--- In Kresy-Siberia@..., Stefan Wisniowski
<swisniowski@p...> wrote:

Bob - does Norman Davies know anything on the deportations to

Siberia? Is

the Pope Polish?!

Norman's wife Myshka is from Lwow and he is very familiar with the

events.

Norman is actually interviewed in the film "A Forgotten Odyssey"

and when we

premiered it in Sydney just after the Olympics in September 2001,

he sent a

message to be read on the evening. Here it is:

Message from Norman Davies
21 September 2001

Congratulations on screening Jagna's film which I watched on

History Channel

last Monday. I have seen it before but it was a moving experience

again.

Our home has a common interest in the subject with Mr Wisniowski.

The

parents of my wife, Myszka, like those of Mr Wisniowski, were in

the town of

Brody near Lvov when the Soviet Army arrived. Her father, as an

educated

man and professional surveyor, was on the list of people to be

deported. He

only escaped because the NKVD went to arrest him at an old address

from

which he had removed sometime earlier.

This incident suggests that the Soviet authorities planned for the
deportations 2 or 3 years before they actually happened.

I hope that the Australian media take note of the film and they

react more

sensibly than those in London. The BBC included an item about the

film in

one of its programs but relied on only "expert" information of a

woman from

LSE who calmly explained the deportations away as a rational

exercise in

removing "anti-soviet elements", and who forgot to mention that a

similar

number of human beings perished in the Soviet deportations as

perished in

Auschwitz.

Serdecznie pozdrawiam,
Professor Norman Davies
Author, Europe - A History

Bob I will send you some contact details off-line.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski

From: "Robert Ambros" <AmbrosR@m...>

Does anyone know if Norman Davies has published anything on the

deportations

to Siberia? This would be a logical continuation of his work.

He may not

even be that familiar with the events. Does anyone in the group

know Norman

Davies or know how to reach him?

Bob

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
*
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
*
Discussion site :
Gallery (photos, documents) :
Film and info :
*
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@...
*


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:41:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Lech Lesiak <lech_lesiak@...>
Subject: Re: desertion thing in Palestine

--- Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...> wrote:

Leszek,

Please review the message logs for an extensive
discussion of this about a
month or two ago. Read Harvey Sarner's extensive
examination of this.

I read those avidly.

Read

Anders' own book.

Been trying to borrow a copy for years. No luck so
far.

The desertions were de
facto sanctioned by the Polish command and were
rarely if ever punished
(much to the annoyance of the British military who
became the initial target
of Jewish militants).

And that's one of the matters that interests me. Why
would the Polish command sanction it?

From a military perspective in doesn't make much
sense. You bring several thousand guys out of the
USSR with you. People who have to be clothed and fed.
People that you have spent time and money on training
as well.

You are planning to go fight the Germans and need all
the manpower you can get because Polish replacements
are tough to obtain.

Besides, you know such a policy will piss of the
Brits, who are supplying you with all your goodies.

I just don't understand it.

Any anti-semitic behaviour

amongst non-Jewish Polish
soldiers prior to that may have been annoying or
distressing, but would not
be a reason to desert.

Dunno about that. It very much depends on the
individual. When I was in the RCAF in the 60's there
was one Jewish guy in basic training who took his
Jewishness very seriously, and made sure everyone knew
it. Any time he pissed someone off and that person
reacted, he would see it as anti-semitism.

Given pre-war Polish-Jewish divisions, I wouldn't be
surprised if that kind of attitude was pretty common
among the Jews with Anders.

In a military setting where people live in each others
pockets, irritants of this sort magnify quickly.

I've seen the same thing in the USAF. The airmen's
club at Goose Air Base in the 60's was divided in two.
One side was exclusively black, the other white.

If those black draftees were stationed in an African
country that was being touted as a new homeland for US
blacks, I suspect many of them would have deserted as
well.

The occasional claims by

some deserters that the
army itself was an anti-semitic organisation do not
stand up to serious
scrutiny.

The army itself was no more anti-semitic than the US
Army was anti-black. And yet even after official
integration of US forces in the late 40's, blacks were
separated from whites after basic training and put
into jobs more or less reserved for them. Read Victor
Grossman's memoir, he mentions this practice. He was
drafted in the early 50's.

The organization may officially treat everyone the
same, but in practice matters just might be different.

Israeli Arabs are officially treated the same as
Israeli Jews. How many Arabs are drafted into the
IDF?

Czesc,
Leszek

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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:09:26 +0000
From: "Paul Havers" <haverp@...>
Subject: Re: desertion thing in Palestine

Lech

Any good comander will be leanient towards some actions of his men. I
suppose he understood what they were trying to do as they wanted a homeland
in a same way as the Polish soldiers did. There had to be some mutterings
from the Brits but as the soldiers came under the command of Anders it was
up to him in the end what action he took. It would be worth reading his book
to get his view on the subject. I was in the British Army for 10 years and
there was some difference between the soldiers, my unit was a Scotish one
and as the only Englishman there in 1979 I took some stick from them, till
they eventually took me on "board" after making sure that I could do my job.

We did have a few blacks in a unit that I was posted to towards the end of
my service and as you say they kept to themselves, mainly by choice. They
decided to sit on a table of their own and would not look too kindly on one
of us joining them. So it all depends on the individual I suppose

Paul

Lech Lesiak writes:

--- Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...> wrote:

Leszek,

Please review the message logs for an extensive
discussion of this about a
month or two ago. Read Harvey Sarner's extensive
examination of this.

I read those avidly.

Read

Anders' own book.

Been trying to borrow a copy for years. No luck so
far.

The desertions were de
facto sanctioned by the Polish command and were
rarely if ever punished
(much to the annoyance of the British military who
became the initial target
of Jewish militants).

And that's one of the matters that interests me. Why
would the Polish command sanction it?

From a military perspective in doesn't make much
sense. You bring several thousand guys out of the
USSR with you. People who have to be clothed and fed.
People that you have spent time and money on training
as well.

You are planning to go fight the Germans and need all
the manpower you can get because Polish replacements
are tough to obtain.

Besides, you know such a policy will piss of the
Brits, who are supplying you with all your goodies.

I just don't understand it.

Any anti-semitic behaviour

amongst non-Jewish Polish
soldiers prior to that may have been annoying or
distressing, but would not
be a reason to desert.

Dunno about that. It very much depends on the
individual. When I was in the RCAF in the 60's there
was one Jewish guy in basic training who took his
Jewishness very seriously, and made sure everyone knew
it. Any time he pissed someone off and that person
reacted, he would see it as anti-semitism.

Given pre-war Polish-Jewish divisions, I wouldn't be
surprised if that kind of attitude was pretty common
among the Jews with Anders.

In a military setting where people live in each others
pockets, irritants of this sort magnify quickly.

I've seen the same thing in the USAF. The airmen's
club at Goose Air Base in the 60's was divided in two.
One side was exclusively black, the other white.

If those black draftees were stationed in an African
country that was being touted as a new homeland for US
blacks, I suspect many of them would have deserted as
well.

The occasional claims by

some deserters that the
army itself was an anti-semitic organisation do not
stand up to serious
scrutiny.

The army itself was no more anti-semitic than the US
Army was anti-black. And yet even after official
integration of US forces in the late 40's, blacks were
separated from whites after basic training and put
into jobs more or less reserved for them. Read Victor
Grossman's memoir, he mentions this practice. He was
drafted in the early 50's.

The organization may officially treat everyone the
same, but in practice matters just might be different.

Israeli Arabs are officially treated the same as
Israeli Jews. How many Arabs are drafted into the
IDF?

Czesc,
Leszek

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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:42:30 -0800 (PST)
From: James Wilson <polishroots2003@...>
Subject: Russian documents

Hi,
I have recently found a document relating to my late grandmother. Although
in russian (cyrillic script), from a date included, 1964, it appears to be
her exit visa from Siberia via Moscow. I shall be grateful if someone is
able and willing to translate it into english and am able, hopefully, to
scan and e-mail it.
Thank you
Jim Wilson
Leek, Staffs.


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[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:32:34 -0000
From: "Ken Fedzin" <ken.fedzin@...>
Subject: Ukraine Archives - Translation

Hi All!

A few messages have been sent today on the subject of Russian and Ukraine
Archives and also requests for help with translation of these. As luck (or
fate) would have it, I received a reply today from the State Archives in
Lwow, to an e-mail I sent on 6 June asking for details about my father.
They included their e-mail address on the letter head, and for those who may
have need of it, it is... archives@.... This is the 'Central
State Historical Archives of Ukraine'. I e-mailed them in English, as a long
shot. My reply took 5 months, so you must be patient.
Their reply to me was also in Ukrainian and, if anyone would be kind enough,
I would very much appreciate a translation. I know a little Polish (and
English!), but absolutely no Russian etc.
If you can help, please reply to me direct and I will send you the letter as
an attachment to an e-mail.

Regards,

Ken Fedzin.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:32:46 +1100
From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
Subject: Re: Julian Plowy update

Jason,
Thank you so much for getting through to us with your news, which I am
passing on to the group.

Thank God that nobody in the family was hurt. You all have our thoughts and
our prayers; please let us know if there is anything else that we can do to
help.

Regards
Stefan Wisniowski

From: Jastrac1@...
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:45:37 -0500
To: swisniowski@...
Subject: Re: Kresy-Siberia Julian Plowy

I didn't have your email, so I requested membership. My father is Julian
Plowy. He wanted me notify the membership that he will not be

participating

with the group for a couple of weeks. I am writing to let you know the

status

of my family and the house. Julian(father, Theresa (Mother),

Justine(Sister),

Rob(Brother-in-law), Taylor(Niece) and Jeremy(Nephew) are fine. The house

is

not. Unfortunately, the house burnt down to ash on Saturday Evening,

October

27,2003. They have only ahandful of pictures, a few changes of clothes,

his

computer drive and their lives. Everything burnt down in about 20 minutes.

We

looked through the ash but there is really nothing to be found. Only a few
metal objects were not melted. The heat was so intense that it caused the
metal to rust. It was a complete loss. I am attaching a jpeg of what was

the

house. I thought you might want to know his current situation.

Take

care,

Jason D. Plowy




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:36:08 +1100
From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
Subject: Re: Julian Plowy update - house photo

Sorry, I forgot to attach the house photo Jason Plowy sent.
Regards
Stefan Wisniowski

[...] I am attaching a jpeg of what was the house. [...]

[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:37:54 -0000
From: "feb10transport" <richpna@...>
Subject: Jews in Anders Army

In regards to the continued interest in about Jewish soldiers and
the lack of anti-semitism in Anders army, I would suggest purchasing
the Harvey Sarner book, General Anders and the Soldiers of the
Second Polish Corp. I checked on Amazon.com this evening and it is
not available at the present time. However the note said that it
does come up on occasion and it is worth checking in periodically to
see if it available. Another book source is eBay. Additionally,
Mr. Sarner resides in Palm Springs, CA perhaps a letter to him
personally might turn up a copy. I don't know his specific address
though.
Take care,
Rich Widerynski
richpna@...



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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:02:29 -0000
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>
Subject: Re: Norman Davies and the deportations

--- In Kresy-Siberia@..., Stefan Wisniowski
<swisniowski@p...> wrote:

Bob - does Norman Davies know anything on the deportations to

Siberia? Is the Pope Polish?!

Pope is Polish and his real name is Karol Wojtyla (read:voityla)


Gabriel.



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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:07:52 -0000
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>
Subject: Re: Ukraine Archives - Translation

Hi Ken!

I think I can help with translation into polish or english. Let me
know which version would you like and give me your ukrainian text.
I'll do my best.

Gabriel.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:11:41 -0000
From: "razelsmith" <razelsmith@...>
Subject: Re: Russian documents

Hi Jim!
I can help! So let me know what it is,ok?

Take care!

Gabriel.

--- In Kresy-Siberia@..., James Wilson
<polishroots2003@y...> wrote:

Hi,
I have recently found a document relating to my late grandmother.

Although in russian (cyrillic script), from a date included, 1964, it
appears to be her exit visa from Siberia via Moscow. I shall be
grateful if someone is able and willing to translate it into english
and am able, hopefully, to scan and e-mail it.

Thank you
Jim Wilson
Leek, Staffs.


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________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

From: "razelsmith"
[...] Pope is Polish and his real name is Karol Wojtyla (read:voityla)
Gabriel.

From: Eve5J@...
Sorry, I must have missed this, but where are the attachments kept now that Yahoo no longer stores them?

They have only ahandful of pictures, a few changes of clothes, his
> computer drive and their lives. Everything burnt down in about 20 minutes. We
> looked through the ash but there is really nothing to be found. Only a few
> metal objects were not melted.

Sorry, I forgot to attach the house photo Jason Plowy sent.
Regards
Stefan Wisniowski

> [...] I am attaching a jpeg of what was the house. [...]