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exhibition 10th feb
Hello everyone
Aas you may be aware I am in the process of putting together an exhibition and organising a Mass on 13th Feb 2995 here in Bradford UK. re the ebay and photos etc is theer any chance of having copies on CD or DVD? not just of this find but if anyone else has any thoughts of what would make the exhibition 'come alive' so to speak. Linder you have connections with Silorski Inst do you think they might be willing to help? As we are all aware this is a dark period of history not only in the reality of the experience but also in the continued ignorance of it by the general public . There are many reasons for this which we are all too aware of but it is up to us to enlighten and to inform and teach whereever it is possible to do so. I am aware that several months ago ther was a travelling exhibition doing the rounds in US and Canada is there any chance of including UK? As I also mentioned I am a teacher and I hope to put toggether with your help teaching materials for schools so that in the curriculum on WW2 this may also be included. Bye 4 now Hela. _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! |
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Re: Photo Album E-bay
Barb - My father and aunt were at Abercorn...Last name Dzieciol..? grace Barbara Kwietniowski wrote: Zbyszek,
Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. |
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Re: Eastern Europe secured its own freedom.
romed46
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Hello Eve, You are correct, however Poland was abandoned by the UK and USA in 1943 at the Teheran conference, Nov.28-Dec.1.,where Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin agreed that the post-war Poland will be included in the Russian sphere of influence. On July 22, 1944 Churchill announced in the British Parliament that Britain will not guarantee Polish borders. On Feb 4-11, 1945 at Yalta conference Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt agreed to partition Poland along the Curzon Line. On July 6, 1945 British, American and French Governments ceased to recognize the legal Polish Government in London. They ,instead, recognized the Russian created Polish Provisional Government of National Unity. On Aug. 2, 1945 at Potsdam Conference Attlee, Truman and Stalin agreed that German territories of East Prussia and the German territories east of the river Oder and Western Neisse be placed under Polish administration. Throughout that period Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen under the British command gave their lives for a free Poland. Please see my website Poland & WW II at or on The Forgotten Odyssey site under LINKS-POLANDIN WORLD WAR 2-GENERAL - POLAND AND WORLD WAR II 1939 -1945, for more details Regards, Roman Skulski West Vancouver, Canada -- In Kresy-Siberia@..., Eve5J@a... wrote: If I recall correctly, shortly after the war ended, Britain did notrecognize the Polish-Government-in-Exile, did it? The British formallyrecognized the Communist Government in Warsaw. |
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Re: Photo Album E-bay
Zbigniew Bob Styrna
Henry,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Very good point. Before I donate the photo album, if I win it, I/we'll have to check this out. First I'll post all pictures in high quality. And provide better scans for anyone that is interested. I'll keep a high quality scan myself or course. Any other suggestions. Zbyszek -----Original Message-----
From: henrysokolowski [mailto:hsokol@...] Sent: November 8, 2004 6:45 PM To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Photo Album E-bay The Hoover Institute may consider donations of documents and photos as well. Donation to small libraries and museums is dangerous since they often have very limited staff, space and funds and may throw out old donations 20 years from now in order to make room for new donations. Does anyone know if the Polish Institute and Sikorski Museum in London has secured funding in perpetuity? Is their future viability secure? Henry Sokolowski Mississauga, Canada --- In Kresy-Siberia@..., "Zbigniew Bob Styrna" <styrna@t...> wrote: Gary,and then scan all the pictures and post them on our site.collects such old Polish historical pictures?there's another photo album concerning displaced Poles.ViewItem&category=26265&item=61293588 04&rd=1 |
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Eu...
Zbigniew Bob Styrna
开云体育Yes I agree, ?Chamberlain’s ?judgment was rather na?ve. And probably Poland was very na?ve when she signed an agreement with Britain prior to WWII. After all, how could Britain help Poland, when it she herself was hopelessly unprepared.? That’s why Sept 3, 1939, it was a ‘token’ gesture. If England was not an Island, but located on mainland Europe, Hitler would have overran it rather easily.? ?And people laughed when Hitler occupied Poland in 4 weeks. From: Drwhitem@...
[mailto:Drwhitem@...]
Sent: November 8, 2004 9:58 AM To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Eu... ? I do not agree that Britain's declaration of war against Germany was a "token gesture," and that the British only became serious when they were attacked by Germany a year later.? I wasa child?in England at the time and the war was taken very seriously.? But the English were totally unprepared.? They could not even protect themselves, let alone anyone else.? I still remember the soldiers being drilled in Hyde Park.? They did not have proper uniforms and they had no arms at all.? They were using sticks instead of guns.? If Hitler had tried to land in England, he could easily have done so.? It is extremely fortunate that he did not.? ? It was too bad that Chamberlain had not had the foresight to make England more prepared against a possible German attack.? But then, Chamberlain's judgement was appalling.? However, the British not doing more for Poland at the time was not due to?indifference or to some kind of conspiracy, it was simply due to lack of preparedness.? Dorit B. Whiteman
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Re: Photo Album E-bay
henrysokolowski
The Hoover Institute may consider donations of documents and photos
as well. Donation to small libraries and museums is dangerous since they often have very limited staff, space and funds and may throw out old donations 20 years from now in order to make room for new donations. Does anyone know if the Polish Institute and Sikorski Museum in London has secured funding in perpetuity? Is their future viability secure? Henry Sokolowski Mississauga, Canada --- In Kresy-Siberia@..., "Zbigniew Bob Styrna" <styrna@t...> wrote: Gary,and then scan all the pictures and post them on our site.collects such old Polish historical pictures?there's another photo album concerning displaced Poles.ViewItem&category=26265&item=61293588 04&rd=1 |
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Europe
Lech Lesiak
--- HJ Trevelyan <hjtrevelyan@...> wrote:
End quote Thank God that only the Brits and the Americans are guilty of this. Cheers, Lech ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! |
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Europe
Lech Lesiak
--- Ralph Apel <Ralph.Apel@...> wrote:
The only people who could have brought matrerial aid to Poland in the event of a German invasion were the Russians. End quote Hardly. France had a large modern army and air force, and shared a frontier with Germany. If the French had invaded from the West while Hitler was busy in Poland who knows what might have happened? Cheers, Lech ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! |
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Re: forgotten again!
Lech Lesiak
--- Ralph Apel <Ralph.Apel@...> wrote:
The Channel would have been ablaze and mustard gas would have coated the invasion beaches. End quote This scenario has been wargamed to death over the decades, and the Germans never succeed. The biggest factors are: - The Germans had no landing craft to move large numbers of troops. (Operation Sealion was going to use Rhine river barges completely unsuited to sea conditions) - The British navy controlled the Channel. Cheers, Lech ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! |
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The Calgary Herald, Nov. 7, 2004
开云体育?
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The Incredible
Will to Survive: During the Second World War, millions of Poles were banished to
remote labour camps. Five Calgarians share their stories David Bly, Calgary Herald Anatoli Nieumierzycki's long journey to Calgary began when Russian soldiers pounded on his family's door in eastern Poland in 1940 and told everyone they had half an hour to pack up and move out. The forced journey took him north to a remote labour camp in Russia's Siberia, then south across Russia to Kazakstan, then to Iran, Iraq, Egypt and Italy, where he fought for the Allies. Then, because he couldn't go home to Poland, he came to Canada. Millions shared this journey. Among them were Jan Kraska, Witold Mazur, Jan Zygadlo and Paul Wiencki. The five men gathered at the Polish Combatants' Hall on Kensington Road recently to talk about their experiences. About 1.5 million Poles were deported to the Soviet Union in 1940 to work in remote labour camps. About 500,000 survived. It was an ordeal that almost ranks with the Holocaust in its cruelty and depravity, a chapter of the Second World War that has been largely overlooked. About 1.5 million Poles were deported to the Soviet Union in 1940 to work in remote labour camps. About 500,000 survived. It was an ordeal that almost ranks with the Holocaust in its cruelty and depravity, a chapter of the Second World War that has been largely overlooked. Germany invaded Poland on Sept. 1, 1939, setting off the Second World War. On Sept. 17, Russia invaded Poland from the east, taking back what it claimed was its territory. Germany and Russia had hated Poland for centuries, and the 1939 invasions were part of a calculated plan to erase a country from the map and eliminate a people through assimilation, starvation and outright murder. The Russians set up their own government and brought in their own police. Nieumierzycki's father, a veteran of the First World War, was arrested and taken away, as were any others who were seen as potential military or civic leaders. At 3 a.m. on Feb. 10, 1940, soldiers pounded on the Nieumierzyckis' door. "Pack your belongings," they said. "You are being transplanted." A horse-drawn sleigh waited outside in the -- 35 night -- it was the coldest winter in a century. "We started grabbing whatever we could carry and put it on the sleigh," said Nieumierzycki, then 16 and the oldest of four children. ?From the gathering place outside the town, a convoy of sleighs started through the deep snow eastward 40 kilometres to a train station in Russian territory. "There was snow up to your belly," said Nieumierzycki. "Little kids rode on the sleighs. Those who could walk, walked. Everyone was crying." Late at night, the convoy reached the train station, and people were loaded in boxcars, 60 people to a car. Each uninsulated boxcar had wooden stoves for heat, a hole in the floor for a toilet and wooden shelves for sleeping. As each boxcar was loaded, its door was slammed shut and locked. "We spent two days sitting on the train, locked in the cars," said Nieumierzycki. "Then we started going somewhere. We didn't know where. There was no food supplied. You had only hot water and what you brought with you." It was a journey of misery and many didn't make it. At almost every stop, bodies were taken off the train and left by the wayside. After about a month of travelling, the train reached a station in Siberia. The exiled Poles transferred their belongings to another convoy of sleighs and trekked another seven days to a labour camp. Their job was to cut logs and haul them to the riverbank, where they were floated downstream to a paper mill. The stories of the other men differ only in the details. Mazur was only four when the soldiers pounded on his door. As young as he was, he distinctly remembers the red star on the Russian officer's uniform, and how the star was peeling away from the coat. Mazur said coming in the middle of the night was part of the Russians' strategy. "It was a psychological thing," he said. "At that time of night, people are not thinking, not at their best." Wiencki's family was not deported to Siberia. His father had come to eastern Poland as a farmer in 1912 and had not served in the military. Yet, the Russians saw the 17-year-old Pawel, and many like him, as a threat to stability, so he was arrested as a counter-revolutionary. "I was imprisoned . . . interrogated day and night; beaten, tortured and starved," he wrote in his memoirs. "A few months of this and I could no longer hold out -- I confessed to the accusations." He was sentenced to eight years in the labour camps. Life in the Siberian labour camps was harsh. Some of the deportees lived in barracks built by Polish exiles from a previous generation. Others had to build their own. Food was minimal and the amount disbursed often depended on how much work was done. Zygadlo, the oldest of four sons, saw his mother die of illness and starvation in the labour camp, and helped take her coffin to a grave in the boggy terrain. He remembers the difficulty they had in burying her. "There was water in the grave," he said. "The coffin floated." In the camp where they were sent, Mazur's father cut logs to be floated down the river to a paper mill, and his mother chopped the branches off the logs. Mazur was sent to a Russian kindergarten where the brainwashing started early. "At one time, a very well-dressed woman, a high-ranking KGB officer, I think -- asked us, 'Do you believe in God?' We said, 'Of course.' She brought out a small statue of the Virgin Mary and told us to pray for food. "So we prayed and nothing happened. "Then she said, 'But if you pray to Father Stalin, you will get food.' So we prayed to Stalin, and guess what? The door was opened and there were people with food. We got sandwiches. I remember it so well -- there was meat on my bread." Getting food meant standing in long lines, said Kraska, who was 11 when his family was exiled to Russia. "Sometimes you would stand in line for a day and a half for bread," he said. "If someone got pushed out of line, that was it. They wouldn't get any food that day. "You got two slices of bread if you worked, one if you didn't. A family got a very small loaf of black bread, light on the rye, heavy on the sawdust. "I saw no meat, no milk, no eggs for a year and a half." The elderly and the very young who couldn't work died by the thousands. "After 45 years old, few survived. No one under four years old survived," said Kraska. "My brother died in three months. My grandparents died in six months." When Hitler turned on Stalin in the summer of 1941, the Soviet Union formed an uneasy partnership with the Allies, including the Poles. In the fall of 1941, the labourers were informed they had been granted "amnesty." "Amnesty!" said Mazur. "That's a funny word, as if we were criminals or traitors." The Poles were told they were free to join the army being formed by Gen. Wladyslaw Sikorsky, the Polish prime minister. Their new-found freedom was mostly illusion. The Russian officials kept many of the forced labourers in the camps and did nothing to help the others make their way to the Polish army. "From the point when we were free, that's when we really started suffering," said Zygadlo. As captive labourers, the Poles were fed a starvation diet; when they were set free, they were given nothing. Wiencki said officials in his camp announced the Poles would be freed, but weeks passed without word on when they could leave. No travel documents were issued. With two other young men, Wiencki escaped from the camp, even though he was weakened by starvation and disease. They joined up with other young men who had become adept at stealing food and other essentials. For Wiencki, that created a conflict. "My upbringing helped me form a conscience that would not permit me to cheat and steal," he said. "I was constantly faced with this dilemma: In Russia, if you did not steal, you perished." Mazur's view is more pragmatic. "We became very good at stealing," he said. "It was a matter of survival." The Poles had to make their way to Kazakstan along the Caspian Sea to connect with Polish officials and the army. "The closest train station was 100 kilometres away," said Nieumierzycki. "So we didn't move until the springtime and then we started travelling." Even after they trekked to the railway, the going was difficult because of German bombardments. "Then the whole family got sick," said Nieumierzycki. "My father said, 'Son, I'm going to watch the family, try to find some work. You go find the army.'" Leaving behind his parents, a six-year-old sister and two brothers, ages nine and 12, Nieumierzycki climbed on the bumper of a southbound train. "It took me 42 days of travelling," he said. When Germany declared war on Russia, six men in Zygadlo's camp were arrested, including his father. "I saw them take him away in a truck," he said. "That was the last time I saw him." That left the youth in charge of his three younger brothers. "It was September and I knew if we stayed in the camp, we would die over the winter," he said. "I thought if even one of us could make it out, we could tell the world what happened." He and his brothers trekked to the nearest train station and managed to get aboard a train. On the train, one of his brothers died of starvation. "We wrapped his body up, and when the train stopped, we tried to take the body off the train, but they wouldn't let us," said Zygadlo. "So I put it on the hitch at the front of the boxcar. The next time the trainstopped, the body was gone. I don't know what happened to it. The journey seemed endless. "On the 18th of September, we got in the boxcar. On the 18th of December, we got out in Uzbekistan," he said. Polish soldiers and their families made their way from labour camps all over Russia to the Caspian region, to Kazakstan, Turkestan and Uzbekistan, where Polish units were forming. Women and children who had relatives in the army had a better chance of being able to settle temporarily near the army camps. Children as young as 12 enlisted as cadets so they could have a connection to the military. The journey from Siberia was as arduous as the original exile, and many arrived at the camps barely alive, suffering from starvation and disease. They were then shipped across the Caspian Sea to Iran, then known as Persia. Polish relief groups provided shelter, clothing and food, but for some of the refugees, the food was too much. "They had been eating nothing for weeks," said Mazur. "Then they were given all this good food. Their bodies couldn't take it, and some died." By the time he arrived with his family, the authorities had learned to give the refugees only a little plain food at first, giving them time to become accustomed to a normal diet. The soldiers went to Palestine and Egypt for training; their families went to India, then to Africa to camps in the British colonies there. Mazur's father joined the army. He and his mother were with a group that was taken by truck from Iran to India. From Bombay, they sailed to Dar es Salaam in Tanzania (then Tanganyika). They were loaded onto trucks and taken to an orphans' camp at a place called Kidugala. Camp life in Africa was austere, but reasonably comfortable. Already fluent in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian, Mazur learned to speak Swahili. "We were out of harm's way," said Mazur. In 1948, he and his mother were reunited with his father in England. After earning a degree at London University, Mazur came to Calgary in 1958 and worked for a steel company. He then worked for Shell Oil for 20 years before retiring. Kraska followed a similar route, from Iran to India to Africa, where he spent two years in a refugee camp at Tengeru, Tanganyika, before being reunited with his family in England in 1948. In 1955, he came to Calgary, got a job with the CPR and retired in 1989. When Poland fell in October of 1939, thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen made their way to France and Britain to continue the fight. With its government operating in exile in London, the country never capitulated. "It was the first country to experience the terror of the Nazi Blitzkrieg," write Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud in their book, A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron, "the first to fight back, the first to say -- and mean -- 'We shall never surrender.' " Their account of the RAF's 303 Squadron, made up of fighter pilots who had fled Poland, is sub-titled Forgotten Heroes of World War II, underscoring the betrayal Poles suffered at the hands of historians and Allied politicians after the war. Yet, "for the first full year of the war, Poland . . . was Britain's most important declared ally," write Olson and Cloud. The authors, who were in Calgary recently on a book tour, told their audience the contest was so close in the early days of the war that the Polish pilots likely tipped the balance in favour of Britain. In only six weeks of combat, during the Battle of Britain's most crucial period, the squadron was credited with shooting down 126 enemy aircraft, more than twice as many as any other RAF squadron for that period Many years later, a Battle of Britain historian would write: "Even though it was equipped with the Hurricane, the least effective of the . . . main fighters, 303 Squadron was by most measures the most formidable fighter unit (RAF or Luftwaffe) of the battle . . . ." In 1996, the Queen said, "If Poland had not stood with us in those days . . . the candle of freedom might have been snuffed out." On the ground, the Polish soldiers fought fiercely and bravely. They routed the Germans from Monte Cassino in Italy, after five months of attacks by other Allied units had made no progress. It was costly --nearly 1,000 Poles died and 3,000 were wounded. Pawel Wiencki fought in that battle, and like most of the Poles, when the war was over, he had a chest full of medals and no home. Roosevelt and Churchill had given Poland away. They let Stalin slice off the eastern portion of the country, and set up a puppet government in the rest. To return would be almost certain death or life in labour camps for soldiers and airmen who had fought for the Allied cause -- the communists branded them traitors -- so most chose to stay in England or emigrated to Canada, the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and Argentina. Those who came to Canada found freedom and opportunity, and built good lives. The tide of politics shifted in eastern Europe, and now they are able to visit a free Poland, but they still feel the loss of a homeland and grieve for families killed. "It still hurts," said Zygadlo. dbly@... |
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher
Krys Dobrzanski
开云体育Hi Eve, my historical knowledge is not brilliant but one thing that I have
read up on is that Britain and France (for whatever reason) did not 'physically'
come to Poland's aid in time and Britain only became involved when one of their
passenger ships, "Athenia" was??torpedoed. Additionally, French troops
where amassed on the Franco-German border and if they had attacked this weak
German front, theoretically Germany may have been defeated sooner and
consequently, Poland may have been spared quite so much suffering.
?
I believe that this is why so many Poles of my parent's
generation,?now living in the UK, feel betrayed and understandably bitter
at Britain's?ambiguous stance at that time.
?
With kindest regards,
Krys Ipswich, England ?
? How long did it take Britain and France to get their act together to
come to Poland's aid?? By the time they finally were prepared, it was too
late, wasn't it?? The damage was done.? They had knowledge that the
invasion was going to take place prior, yet they vacillated.? In retrospect
we state?"woulda, shoulda, coulda," but it occurred and was allowed to
occur.
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher and WWII
Hello Ralph,
?
I'm familiar with the pro-Russian historical line that you?are expressing.? It was and is part of the anti-Polish Russian propaganda.? The Russians also learned that throwing in a bit of pro-British issues generally makes the statement more pallatable to a wider audience.
?
Cordially,
?
Halina
Los Angeles
Ralph Apel wrote:
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Europe
it was in order to deter Hitler from attacking Poland that the British
Governemnt gave its guarantee. The next step was war, and so it was. The only way to have prevented it was an Anglo-Russian-Polish Alliance to give Hitler a very clear warning. The only people who could have brought matrerial aid to Poland in the event of a German invasion were the Russians. Prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact the UK tried to get the Colonels to agree to a Russian Alliance. The Colonels reply: we may, with the Germans, lose our body; with the Russians we would lose our soul. As I said the RAF flew missions to drop supplies to the Home Army. As we all know Polish Forces fought in Africa, Italy, France the Low Countries and Germany. Britain became the home of the Polish Government-in-Exile (and many others). And yes in 1939 the RAF were restrained from bombing Germany. It made up for it later. ---------- From: HJ Trevelyan <hjtrevelyan@...>"helping" Eastern Europe Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:19:24 -0800 (PST)reason and not self-laudatory emotion as the British and Americans tend to do. Despite treaty obligations, no one except for a Czechoslovak pilot or two, came to Poland's aid in September of 1939. The Brits' help consisted of dropping leaflets over Germany...I kid you not. behavior is best described by the following quote from Churchill: "There is one helpful guide, namely, for a nation to keep its word to actin accordance with its treaty obligations to allies. This guide is called honour." But, then, Churchill wrote his own history of WWII. Did he not? His words resounded with honor and duty, but his acts did not necessarily do honor to his lofty prose. It was in August of 1939 that Poles gave the British and French replicas of the Enigma machine and the initial codes. I think Poles had a right to expect more than leaflets. gold--the gold that was placed in the Bank of England in September of 1939? Is it still in England? In Poland? Got used up--how? If any is still left, could it not yet be used to repatriate those Poles who had been deported to Siberia and other places, but have been unable to return to Poland? gave Eastern Europe its freedom. In fact, he used Eastern Europe as his primary example. I feel we in this group know a lot more than most of the world's citizens. Although my father did not speak about his deportation much, I was raised with full knowledge of Ugly Americanism, of the importance of the United Nations, and allies. |
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Europe
Dear Group,
?
Eve, thanks for this post.? One needs to look at the facts of WWII with reason and not self-laudatory emotion as? the British and Americans tend to do.? Despite treaty obligations, no one except for a Czechoslovak pilot or two, came to Poland's aid in September of 1939.? The Brits' help consisted of dropping leaflets over Germany...I kid you not.?
?
Some?people, including historians,?seem to imply and believe?that Britain's?behavior is best described?by the following quote from Churchill:
"There is one helpful guide, namely, for a nation to keep its word to act in accordance with its treaty obligations to allies.? This guide is called honour."? But, then, Churchill wrote his own history of WWII.? Did he not? ?His words resounded with honor and duty, but his acts did not necessarily?do honor to?his lofty prose.? It was in August of 1939 that Poles gave the British and French replicas of the Enigma machine and the?initial codes.? I think Poles had a right to expect more than leaflets.
?
By the way, does anyone know whatever happened to the Polish Government's gold--the gold that was placed in the Bank of England in September of 1939?? Is it still in England?? In Poland?? Got used up--how?? If any is still left, could it not yet be used to repatriate those Poles who had been deported to Siberia and other places, but?have been?unable to return to Poland?
?
Cordially,
?
Halina
Los Angeles
?
Eve5J@... wrote:
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Europe
Lech Lesiak
--- Ralph Apel <Ralph.Apel@...> wrote:
Let us not now go into the matter of the Warsw Uprising of '44 lest we discuss that of '43. end quote The Warsawa ghetto uprising been discussed here in the past. I, for one, have no qualms about stating my views on either even though they offend certain sensitivities. Cheers, Lech ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! |
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Re: Forgot
Lech Lesiak
--- Ralph Apel <Ralph.Apel@...> wrote:
--------------------------------- Oh and one thing more: the RAF flew missions to Warsaw during the uprising to help the AK with supplies air-dropped to the city. end quote Polish RAF crews flew those sorties after overcoming a good deal of objection from the RAF brass. Most of the supplies they dropped ended up in German hands. If the flights had been better coordinated with AK plans, more of the drops would have fallen into Polish hands. Cheers, Lech Edmonton Alberta Kanada ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! |
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Europe
Zbigniew Bob Styrna
Ralf,
toggle quoted message
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I appreciated your comments as you bring up some valuable points, however, it is not fair to quote facts out of context or state partial facts either. Yes it is true that Poland expanded it's borders past the Curzon line in 1920 It did so very reluctantly. The Poland Russian war occurred because Russia was preparing to attack Poland to regain/maintain it's 130 occupation of Poland. Miraculously, Poland somehow defeated Russia even though Russia had a much larger and superior armed forces and was right on the outskirts of Warszaw. Polish troops chased the Russians eastwards until Lennin 'sued' for peace. Hence a new border was established. Poland only did this in pure self defense. In 1920 or 1939, there was no country named Ukraine so how could "... Stalin take back these lands for Ukraine.." ? Ukraine came into existence after WWII. Prior to Sept 1, 1939, there was lots of evidence that Hitler/Germany were extremely aggressive and for 10years amassed huge weapons stock and massive armed forces. In spite of Poland's "begging", no one, neither England/Britain, or France wanted to 'really' help. Every nation 'stung' from the huge losses of WWI and non one wanted to get involved with another war. Even after Hitler occupied Austria (Mar 1938) and then Czechoslovakia (Mar 1939), all other nations were willing to do is 'negotiate' with Germany to no avail. Yes Britain decaled war two days after Sept 1, 1939, but it was just a token gesture. It wasn't until Aug 1940 (one year later) when Germany attacked Britain that Britain started some real 'effort' to do something in the war. Even then , Germany would have overrun Britain in couple of weeks, if not days, were it not for improved radar, and Polish Pilots and because Poland gave Britain the codes for the Engima machine. I'm not sure what you mean about "'44 lest we discuss that of '43."? Zbyszek -----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Apel [mailto:Ralph.Apel@...] Sent: November 8, 2004 4:32 AM To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Europe If there is anything worse than a lie it is a partial (in every sense of the word) truth. When Poland was invaded one country did aid her. The United Kingdom declared war on Germany in compliance to its treaty obligations to Poland. France joined in a few days later. At Yalta the UK as the by then junior partner in the Grand Alliance did its best. Poland had to accept the Curzon line as its Eastern Frontier. (This was the internationally agreed frontier as arranged at Versailles). Poland had expanded beyond Curzon in the aftermath of its independence. It also took parts of Ukraine and Lithuania. These are facts; look at a history book. Stalin took these back for Ukraine and Lithuania, (ie for the Soviet Union). In compensation the Polish frontier expanded Westwards at Germany's expense to the line of the Oder-Niesse. Let us not now go into the matter of the Warsw Uprising of '44 lest we discuss that of '43. ---------- From: Eve5J@...Eastern Europe Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:28:33 ESTto watch this week's Bill Maher if you can.know Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland began World War II in 1939.Simultaneously Poland was invaded by the USSR on her long Eastern borders. Not one single country came to Poland's aid to help its citizens fight off this dualslaughter, and Poland was almost annihilated. Then began the long war years ofoppression, deportation to Siberia of millions of its Eastern citizens, incarceration,and Germany. When the entire city of Warsaw rose against the Nazis, theRussian army (at that time our allies) watched as the city was destroyed, starved, anda free pass to do what it would, which in this case was nothing.an ally and for its own freedom. This service was without parallel. Men andwith the Polish Forces Under British Command in Europe and elsewhere, and with theiceberg regarding what Polish citizens did for the war effort and how theysuffered. allow this. Roosevelt and Churchill capitulated to his demands, and this was just oneof the many times that this occurred. 2). Its Eastern borderlands were given toEurope, was promptly HANDED OVER in its entirety to the USSR. Poland just emergedfrom the USSR's yoke in 1989.leading member.received the brunt of the war as far as destruction of society and actual warfare.All of Eastern Europe was served as one of the sacrificial lambs of World WarII. "helping Eastern Europe" would be laughable if it wasn't so disgusting an oppositereality.
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Eastern Europe secured its own freedom.
开云体育If I recall correctly, shortly after the war ended, Britain did not recognize the Polish-Government-in-Exile, did it?? The British formally recognized the Communist Government in Warsaw.?
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Britain became the home of the Polish Government-in-Exile (and many others). |
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forgotten again!
I forgot another couple of points:
The Germans set up the Ukraine after the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in 1917. After the First World War, during the Civil war the Ukraine became a Socialist Republic and was one of the Signatories to the Treaty of 1922 setting up the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Yes the Reds attacked Poland and Poland with the help of the French (in the persons of Weygand and a junior officer called Charles De Gaulle, beat them back from the gates of Warsaw and pushed them back and continued to push. Enigma was NOT a factor in the Battle of Britain; the two squadrons of Polish Pilots WERE an important factor and Radar supremely important. It is however doubtful if germany could have mounted a succesful invasion of England. The Channel would have been ablaze and mustard gas would have coated the invasion beaches. ---------- From: "Zbigniew Bob Styrna" <styrna@...>Eastern Europe Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:12:01 -0800occupation of Poland.Stalin take back these lands for Ukraine.." ? Ukraine came into existence afterGermany to no avail.token gesture. It wasn't until Aug 1940 (one year later) when Germany attackedthe word) truth.declared war on Germany in compliance to its treaty obligations to Poland. France Trywho was a guest on the HBO show "Real Time With Bill Maher" yesterday. tosinglewatch this week's Bill Maher if you can.know country came to Poland's aid to help its citizens fight off this dualslaughter,and Poland was almost annihilated. Then began the long war years ofoppression,deportation to Siberia of millions of its Eastern citizens, incarceration, armystarvation, enslavement, and wholesale murder of Poland by both the USSRandGermany. When the entire city of Warsaw rose against the Nazis, theRussian army(at that time our allies) watched as the city was destroyed, starved, and afree pass to do what it would, which in this case was nothing.an women served bravely on many fronts: in Poland's own Underground Army,with thePolish Forces Under British Command in Europe and elsewhere, and with theiceberg *and made part of the USSR, and, 3). Poland, with the rest of EasternEurope,was promptly HANDED OVER in its entirety to the USSR. Poland just emergedfromthe USSR's yoke in 1989.leading KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION* Discussion site :* To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail*
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Re: Comments on Bill Maher yesterday: US "helping" Eastern Eu...
开云体育I do not agree that Britain's declaration of war against Germany was a
"token gesture," and that the British only became serious when they were
attacked by Germany a year later.? I wasa child?in England at the time
and the war was taken very seriously.? But the English were totally
unprepared.? They could not even protect themselves, let alone anyone
else.? I still remember the soldiers being drilled in Hyde Park.? They
did not have proper uniforms and they had no arms at all.? They were using
sticks instead of guns.? If Hitler had tried to land in England, he could
easily have done so.? It is extremely fortunate that he did not.?
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It was too bad that Chamberlain had not had the foresight to make England
more prepared against a possible German attack.? But then, Chamberlain's
judgement was appalling.? However, the British not doing more for Poland at
the time was not due to?indifference or to some kind of conspiracy, it was
simply due to lack of preparedness.? Dorit B.
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