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Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
I can support what David wrote above, it's definitely not easy to make a good carbon tube from scratch at home without a vacuum pump setup and an enormous oven to cure pre-preg carbon fabric!
For a project to re-rig my dinghy I bought a 5m carbon tube in NL () to form the mast, but I made a 1.5m tube of my own to reinforce the base from inside. It worked out well but for sure it was messy and could have gone wrong. What is really important is that the mast has fibres oriented both diagonally and horizontal/vertical.
However, on his YouTube feed, Yann Quenet seems to have found a good solution. I've twice tried to obtain the details, but it looks like he's using a pre-preg twill and then applying epoxy on top - presumably the hardener in the resin is also triggering the pre-preg to cure at room temperature. I'm keen to know!?
But what Yann and I both independently did the same was to use PVC drain pipe as the mandrel, and being cheap we both left it permanently inside the carbon tube:-)
The professional method is to coat the mandrel with an easy-release fluid which should allow the mandel to be removed without a tractor;-)
Finally, Mike Waters has developed a process for making long and complex carbon masts without vacuum bagging. He sells the plans including the method, but perhaps he'd be willing to sell the method itself, without the full plans, to make a simple round mast instead of the complex profile for his wing mast???
Hope this post is helpful!
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Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
I have made the tubes before. The things you said are 100% true.?
My biggest concern, thinking about that idea was getting the mast to release. Honestly, ill prob just go alum. For the mast, and do the other bits in carbon, as needed. With the wingsail, there is no tracks ect..i can make the rings easy in carbon. An alum. Tube wont be to expensive.?
Have a great holiday week?
Ha
I have made carbon tube battens for a junk sail, 60mm diameter and 6m in length, using carbon sleeves from Soller Composites. It is not an easy process. You need some form of mandrel for the sleeve to go over, you need a mechanism to elongate the sleeves along the mandrel, and then it is not easy to consistently wet out the carbon with epoxy to get a proper wet out. Then the whole thing needs to be kept straight while the epoxy is curing, and then you need to be able to remove the finished carbon tube from the mandrel. We had to tie one end of the carbon tube to a stout fence post, and then use a 4x4 vehicle to pull the tube off the mandrel.
?
There are many obstacles in front of the amateur builder successfully making carbon tube. Based on my experience I would not attempt it for making a mast. You would be much better off to purchase commercially manufactured carbon tube because otherwise you will likely end up with a very expensive mistake.
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David
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
I have made carbon tube battens for a junk sail, 60mm diameter and 6m in length, using carbon sleeves from Soller Composites. It is not an easy process. You need some form of mandrel for the sleeve to go over, you need a mechanism to elongate the sleeves along the mandrel, and then it is not easy to consistently wet out the carbon with epoxy to get a proper wet out. Then the whole thing needs to be kept straight while the epoxy is curing, and then you need to be able to remove the finished carbon tube from the mandrel. We had to tie one end of the carbon tube to a stout fence post, and then use a 4x4 vehicle to pull the tube off the mandrel.
?
There are many obstacles in front of the amateur builder successfully making carbon tube. Based on my experience I would not attempt it for making a mast. You would be much better off to purchase commercially manufactured carbon tube because otherwise you will likely end up with a very expensive mistake.
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David
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Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Well thats cool. I'm sure i can make the mast/gaffstyle top/rings from carbon myself. Then have the sail cut at the place thats supplying Wharram builders with sails. They already have the tooling setup to do it right.?
So im set on the build i belive?
860 open? Single wingsail rig?
Ill be getting the plans after the hoildays?
Do they include the single mast version, OPEN DECK??
THXS AGAIN?
The Wharram ¡°Wingsail¡± is a very good sail.?
At the boat show in Amsterdam, 1982. We were there with the SC 435 and the first carbon fiber bent Gaff. The founder of Polyservice and I developed this Yard.? Not many persons knew carbon at this time as a construction material. The Yard was made for my new Butterfly design. I developed this rig with a big sleeve around the mast for better aerodynamics. Same for the bend Gunterrig gaff/yard. We discussed this rig with James and Hannecke. They developed from this idea their ¡°Wingsail¡±. The Butterfly rig was a nice experiment and learning tool. One result is the parallel rig, which I used for the DUO 425 with big success. I use the sleeve for aerodynamic reasons and on freestanding rotating masts to unfurl the sails.?
By the way, the Wharram ¡°Wingsail¡± rig can be used. But not for parallel rigs, because the rig uses stays. The ¡°Wingsail¡± mast must be stronger because no spreaders can be used. 
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Moderated
Re: Carbon tupes for free standing masts
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Something to think about...when looking to build carbon tubes
Carbon sleeves? A mold (can be wood shaped to size) This company makes shrink wrap You lay the sleeves? Epoxy? Shrink wrap it heat it?
There ate vids on this website to get you thinking?
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 7:24?AM Harald Niespor via <vitamedi62= [email protected]> wrote: Hi all!
I have just ordered the plywood to start the DUO 480 adventure before the end of 2023 :) At the moment I am thinking about the building of the carbon masts?
at home. The company that Bernd found, sells really nice stuff, 6000 mm carbon masts at a good price, so I have to decide....
The idea of this special catamaran is to cruise around the danish island Fyn, put some food, red wine and beer into the hull, (the distance is around 140 nm)
and sleep at the beach.?
Happy Christmas,
Harald
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Moderated
Re: Carbon tupes for free standing masts
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Something to think about...when looking to build carbon tubes
Carbon sleeves? A mold (can be wood shaped to size) This company makes shrink wrap You lay the sleeves? Epoxy? Shrink wrap it heat it?
There ate vids on this website to get you thinking?
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 7:24?AM Harald Niespor via <vitamedi62= [email protected]> wrote: Hi all!
I have just ordered the plywood to start the DUO 480 adventure before the end of 2023 :) At the moment I am thinking about the building of the carbon masts?
at home. The company that Bernd found, sells really nice stuff, 6000 mm carbon masts at a good price, so I have to decide....
The idea of this special catamaran is to cruise around the danish island Fyn, put some food, red wine and beer into the hull, (the distance is around 140 nm)
and sleep at the beach.?
Happy Christmas,
Harald
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Moderated
Re: Carbon tupes for free standing masts
Something to think about...when looking to build carbon tubes
Carbon sleeves? A mold (can be wood shaped to size) This company makes shrink wrap You lay the sleeves? Epoxy? Shrink wrap it heat it?
There ate vids on this website to get you thinking?
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 7:24?AM Harald Niespor via <vitamedi62= [email protected]> wrote: Hi all!
I have just ordered the plywood to start the DUO 480 adventure before the end of 2023 :) At the moment I am thinking about the building of the carbon masts?
at home. The company that Bernd found, sells really nice stuff, 6000 mm carbon masts at a good price, so I have to decide....
The idea of this special catamaran is to cruise around the danish island Fyn, put some food, red wine and beer into the hull, (the distance is around 140 nm)
and sleep at the beach.?
Happy Christmas,
Harald
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
The Wharram ¡°Wingsail¡± is a very good sail.?
At the boat show in Amsterdam, 1982. We were there with the SC 435 and the first carbon fiber bent Gaff. The founder of Polyservice and I developed this Yard.? Not many persons knew carbon at this time as a construction material. The Yard was made for my new Butterfly design. I developed this rig with a big sleeve around the mast for better aerodynamics. Same for the bend Gunterrig gaff/yard. We discussed this rig with James and Hannecke. They developed from this idea their ¡°Wingsail¡±. The Butterfly rig was a nice experiment and learning tool. One result is the parallel rig, which I used for the DUO 425 with big success. I use the sleeve for aerodynamic reasons and on freestanding rotating masts to unfurl the sails.?
By the way, the Wharram ¡°Wingsail¡± rig can be used. But not for parallel rigs, because the rig uses stays. The ¡°Wingsail¡± mast must be stronger because no spreaders can be used. 
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Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Alain?
After reading your last post, its more clear what options are aval.?
This is the boat i decided to build.
The sloop open bridge deck?
My thinking (and could be wrong) was to use the Wharram sail rig instead of the more advanced square top rig.?
This allows me to build the mast rings? And have the sails cut for a good price.
I will prob lose a little in perf. If it is really bad, i can add tracks on my diy carbon mast and change it up.?
Boats going to used 99% in the Bahamae and moored in Key West?
Im having problems seeing any other photos of the open. If you have any to post up hetr, other then the one i did, that would be great.?
Happy holidays everyone?
Do you mean having the Wharram "Wingsail" on a biplan 860? I am not sure if there will be any advantage for this. Bernd would be much better to answer this. Initially I was thinking of having junk rig but Bernd advise me against it and he offered 3 options: a boom-less sail with a rotating mast so you can roll the sail around the mast for reefing which was very tempting but I was a bit nervous about the mechanical strength over time for the rotating mast, a more "standard" sail and boom combination and the one I selected which is the wishbone. The wishbone has been used on quite a number of boats and has a strong reputation for being easy to handle. There is a bit of cost for the rail and carts. Beside this is looks quite economical to build.
Sourcing the plywood could be one of the main issue in Thailand. Meranti is everywhere but not suitable and Oukoume seems almost chimeric.
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Alain?
After reading your last post, its more clear what options are aval.?
This is the boat i decided to build.
The sloop open bridge deck?
My thinking (and could be wrong) was to use the Wharram sail rig instead of the more advanced square top rig.?
This allows me to build the mast rings? And have the sails cut for a good price.
I will prob lose a little in perf. If it is really bad, i can add tracks on my diy carbon mast and change it up.?
Boats going to used 99% in the Bahamae and moored in Key West?
Im having problems seeing any other photos of the open. If you have any to post up hetr, other then the one i did, that would be great.?
Happy holidays everyone?
Do you mean having the Wharram "Wingsail" on a biplan 860? I am not sure if there will be any advantage for this. Bernd would be much better to answer this. Initially I was thinking of having junk rig but Bernd advise me against it and he offered 3 options: a boom-less sail with a rotating mast so you can roll the sail around the mast for reefing which was very tempting but I was a bit nervous about the mechanical strength over time for the rotating mast, a more "standard" sail and boom combination and the one I selected which is the wishbone. The wishbone has been used on quite a number of boats and has a strong reputation for being easy to handle. There is a bit of cost for the rail and carts. Beside this is looks quite economical to build.
Sourcing the plywood could be one of the main issue in Thailand. Meranti is everywhere but not suitable and Oukoume seems almost chimeric.
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Moderated
Re: Carbon tupes for free standing masts
Hi all!
I have just ordered the plywood to start the DUO 480 adventure before the end of 2023 :) At the moment I am thinking about the building of the carbon masts?
at home. The company that Bernd found, sells really nice stuff, 6000 mm carbon masts at a good price, so I have to decide....
The idea of this special catamaran is to cruise around the danish island Fyn, put some food, red wine and beer into the hull, (the distance is around 140 nm)
and sleep at the beach.?
Happy Christmas,
Harald
|
Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Do you mean having the Wharram "Wingsail" on a biplan 860? I am not sure if there will be any advantage for this. Bernd would be much better to answer this. Initially I was thinking of having junk rig but Bernd advise me against it and he offered 3 options: a boom-less sail with a rotating mast so you can roll the sail around the mast for reefing which was very tempting but I was a bit nervous about the mechanical strength over time for the rotating mast, a more "standard" sail and boom combination and the one I selected which is the wishbone. The wishbone has been used on quite a number of boats and has a strong reputation for being easy to handle. There is a bit of cost for the rail and carts. Beside this is looks quite economical to build.
Sourcing the plywood could be one of the main issue in Thailand. Meranti is everywhere but not suitable and Oukoume seems almost chimeric.
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Moderated
Re: Carbon tupes for free standing masts
Hi all
I'm enjoying reading all the messages of which we have had a sudden influx in the past week or so. It's always interesting getting to understand the rationale of builders as they embark on boat building projects, and I take my hat off to those who embark on larger projects. The KD860 has always been a favourite of mine so i was very interested to see the birth of the open version, and also to learn why one builder might choose it over the full bridge deck version.
With the Duo 480 I will be? also very interested to see how Harald's open beam version works out. I think it will be very fast as it? should of course be much lighter than my regular version. It did occur to me, back when I was building my 480,? that I could turn it into an open beach cat type like we see above, and save a lot of time and money. But I went through the beach cat stage 40 years ago and was no longer interested in sailing with a wetsuit on all day, freezing to death half the time. Anyway I am looking forward to see the open version. Looks like twin rudders as of course with the aluminium cross beams it is not practical to have the central single rudder.?
PS Bernd I believe Tomas's 480 was the first to have the twin rig even though it was a little different to mine
happy Christmas everyone
regards
Bryan
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Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Alain
Thxs for that info. I to love the Wharrams designs. I wanted something a little more modern.?
I was thinking that this, wjat say you?
Do the bi plane rig, with a version of his? Soft wing sails? Free standing masts in carbon. I can make my own carbon mast, and rings for the sail, and have the soft wing sails cut at a good price Over seas. Less money for the rigging? And mast gear, Also i think.?
Gratz on the project starting! Im now buying ply sheets. Im starting the build. Mid 2024
I excpect it done mid 2026
If this may help in the discussion let me share the decisions I made when discussing my 860Open with Bernd.
1) sacrificing some cabin space was not an issue because I am not planning to sail overnight with many people on board.
2) I will be sailing mostly in warm waters so I will be spending more time outside than inside. In the design process: a bimini right after the front beam for passengers and another bimini aft combined with the davits for sheltered navigation. At anchor, a tarp can be drawn between the mast and turn the whole space into a very large tent.
3) the open deck makes for a huge cockpit well protected between the two hulls, the front beam and the rear beam so very safe for everybody on board.?
4) the bridge deck on the 860 is very low and I am 1.92 so I will get very annoyed by the lack of headroom. If I was building a bigger boat, I would have got a covered bridge like the Duo1000 with removable canvas windows for weather protection
5) It is an "ode" to people who have sailed open deck catamarans on long distance for centuries. My second choice beside Bernd designs was the Wharrams which are all open deck, sometimes with a kind of shelter at the center of the bridge. Those are very well regarded long distance, albeit minimalistic, catamarans.
6) I choose the biplane rig because
- it offers redundancy in case one mast breaks
- there is no stays so less failure points plus there is not limitation to the angle of the sail
- with the wishbone it is super easy to manage. It is self tacking so minimum work on the sails even in tight corners. Reefing is straight forward and fast at any point of sail.
- with lower sails, the center of effort is lower which reduces the risk of capsizing
7) It should be lighter and it should sail well in light winds despite the lower sails. With less interior space there is less temptation to cram more things inside so it will help keep things light!
8) the bridge clearance is increased from 500mm to 600mm
9) it will look very different from anything floating nearby so it could be a good ice breaker to make new friends ;-)
And then I got good news: I found a buyer for my home with completion at the latest early May and I got a 20-year visa in Thailand. So, the build should start mid 2024 with target to hit the water in May 2025 for my 60 year old birthday.
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
If this may help in the discussion let me share the decisions I made when discussing my 860Open with Bernd.
1) sacrificing some cabin space was not an issue because I am not planning to sail overnight with many people on board.
2) I will be sailing mostly in warm waters so I will be spending more time outside than inside. In the design process: a bimini right after the front beam for passengers and another bimini aft combined with the davits for sheltered navigation. At anchor, a tarp can be drawn between the mast and turn the whole space into a very large tent.
3) the open deck makes for a huge cockpit well protected between the two hulls, the front beam and the rear beam so very safe for everybody on board.?
4) the bridge deck on the 860 is very low and I am 1.92 so I will get very annoyed by the lack of headroom. If I was building a bigger boat, I would have got a covered bridge like the Duo1000 with removable canvas windows for weather protection
5) It is an "ode" to people who have sailed open deck catamarans on long distance for centuries. My second choice beside Bernd designs was the Wharrams which are all open deck, sometimes with a kind of shelter at the center of the bridge. Those are very well regarded long distance, albeit minimalistic, catamarans.
6) I choose the biplane rig because
- it offers redundancy in case one mast breaks
- there is no stays so less failure points plus there is not limitation to the angle of the sail
- with the wishbone it is super easy to manage. It is self tacking so minimum work on the sails even in tight corners. Reefing is straight forward and fast at any point of sail.
- with lower sails, the center of effort is lower which reduces the risk of capsizing
7) It should be lighter and it should sail well in light winds despite the lower sails. With less interior space there is less temptation to cram more things inside so it will help keep things light!
8) the bridge clearance is increased from 500mm to 600mm
9) it will look very different from anything floating nearby so it could be a good ice breaker to make new friends ;-)
And then I got good news: I found a buyer for my home with completion at the latest early May and I got a 20-year visa in Thailand. So, the build should start mid 2024 with target to hit the water in May 2025 for my 60 year old birthday.
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Yes i know its an 860 sorry confused here...looks to me like a square top and jib.?
Is it the open deck or bridge deck ?
?You posted this reply a few minutes ago.?
?"?To control the top of a square top is not possible. The rig, as shown, is, in my view, the most practical one for any weather situation"?
Im Confused...
This is the KD 860.
In this size, it is the most built and sailed boat.
As a start, search here in the photos folder, or watch this.?
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
This is the KD 860.
In this size, it is the most built and sailed boat.
As a start, search here in the photos folder, or watch this.?
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Which boat design is this one please?? Squaretop main
Sorry for the typos, cell hell...
Thxs for the advice, im goong to vo ahead with the standard 860 bridge deck. I think the open deck would be okau for just Bahamas, but i kmow me, i will prob, one day, want to venture oit further.?
Have a great holiday season? Ha, ha, ha. This is the reason all racing catamarans have a cabin. Show me one ;-))?
I see your goal is long-range sailing. Then, only the original sail area is practical to handle in any sea and wind condition.?
For long range. No open bridge. A simple human aspect. When it rains, you are always on the hull without the loo.
Biplane rig. The rig is not possible without a lot of inside room loss. The masts would be standing in the berth rooms.?
To control the top of a square top is not possible. The rig, as shown, is, in my view, the most practical one for any weather situation.
Cheers
Bernd
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Sorry for the typos, cell hell...
Thxs for the advice, im goong to vo ahead with the standard 860 bridge deck. I think the open deck would be okau for just Bahamas, but i kmow me, i will prob, one day, want to venture oit further.?
Have a great holiday season? Ha, ha, ha. This is the reason all racing catamarans have a cabin. Show me one ;-))?
I see your goal is long-range sailing. Then, only the original sail area is practical to handle in any sea and wind condition.?
For long range. No open bridge. A simple human aspect. When it rains, you are always on the hull without the loo.
Biplane rig. The rig is not possible without a lot of inside room loss. The masts would be standing in the berth rooms.?
To control the top of a square top is not possible. The rig, as shown, is, in my view, the most practical one for any weather situation.
Cheers
Bernd
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Thxs for the advice, im goong to vo ahead with the standard 860 bridge deck. I think the open deck would be okau for just Bahamas, but i kmow me, i will prob, one day, want to venture oit further.?
Have a great holiday season?
Ha, ha, ha. This is the reason all racing catamarans have a cabin. Show me one ;-))?
I see your goal is long-range sailing. Then, only the original sail area is practical to handle in any sea and wind condition.?
For long range. No open bridge. A simple human aspect. When it rains, you are always on the hull without the loo.
Biplane rig. The rig is not possible without a lot of inside room loss. The masts would be standing in the berth rooms.?
To control the top of a square top is not possible. The rig, as shown, is, in my view, the most practical one for any weather situation.
Cheers
Bernd
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Bernd Kohler
Alain Dupuis
bryanandmarycox
