John:
??? It's on this group's website in the files area, and consists
of two PDFs called Lufboard1 and Lufboard2.?? Here's the URL to
the files area:
??
? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? H.W.
On 11/28/2017 10:16 AM, j.hess@... [k-designs] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
What is the URL for the luffboard pdf you mentioned?
Thanks, John
---In k-designs@..., wrote :
Bernd:
??? ?? I ran across the "luffboard" pdfs the other day,
an interesting
addition to the KD860, a much better option than a
dagger board or
centerboard, and ironically it reflects the thought that
always crosses
my mind when I see photos of cats with daggerboards,
which I consider
too vulnerable.? Richard Woods for example offers the
option of
daggerboards or mini keels, one too vulnerable to
damage, and the other
reduces the draft too much.
??? On a hull with the shape of the KD860, it's a
natural solution,
because the support is relatively simple.??? Leeboards
are an excellent
solution for sailing craft, but tend to be ugly and look
like an
afterthought, due to the need to angle them outward to
get the desired
effectiveness.?? On a multihull, with it's narrow hull
as compared to
monohulls, and broad beam........ and shallow heel
angle, it makes
excellent sense to simply follow the hull on the inboard
side like this.
??? Your outside the box thought process very much
reminds me of the
engineer I greatly admired when I was in my teens....
Buckminster
Fuller.?? His solutions were based on reason and logic,
with a touch of
brilliance, rather than on convention. Other teens were
obsessed with
rock stars, movie stars, and sports heroes........... I
would have given
my eye teeth to have had the chance to sit at
Buckminster Fuller's feet,
and hopefully to absorb some of that brilliance.
??? I'm wondering if any KD860's have been built with
these luffboards,
and how they have worked out.??? They are not deep, but
an asymmetric
foil operating in water can produce a lot of force.
??????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
|
build times: specifically Eco5.5
Hi all, thought I would mention the above subject as there has been some discussion on it recently. you know, taking the time you need , enjoying the process etc, etc.?
But I thought maybe to point out here Bernd, that over on the Duckworks facebook site they have obviously mis quoted you on this since , on that nice presentation of the Eco cat, and the pics of Hamish's boat that his build time has been well over 2 years, not the 9 months they quoted there. I've been following his build and visited with him a few times, so I know approximately how long he has been on it.?
Anyhow, a very nice article about the boat.I really like that design. It's kind of like the big brother to the Jigsaw.
regards Bryan
|
What is the URL for the luffboard pdf you mentioned? Thanks, John ---In k-designs@..., <owly@...> wrote : Bernd:
??? ?? I ran across the "luffboard" pdfs the other day, an interesting
addition to the KD860, a much better option than a dagger board or
centerboard, and ironically it reflects the thought that always crosses
my mind when I see photos of cats with daggerboards, which I consider
too vulnerable.? Richard Woods for example offers the option of
daggerboards or mini keels, one too vulnerable to damage, and the other
reduces the draft too much.
??? On a hull with the shape of the KD860, it's a natural solution,
because the support is relatively simple.??? Leeboards are an excellent
solution for sailing craft, but tend to be ugly and look like an
afterthought, due to the need to angle them outward to get the desired
effectiveness.?? On a multihull, with it's narrow hull as compared to
monohulls, and broad beam........ and shallow heel angle, it makes
excellent sense to simply follow the hull on the inboard side like this.
??? Your outside the box thought process very much reminds me of the
engineer I greatly admired when I was in my teens.... Buckminster
Fuller.?? His solutions were based on reason and logic, with a touch of
brilliance, rather than on convention. Other teens were obsessed with
rock stars, movie stars, and sports heroes........... I would have given
my eye teeth to have had the chance to sit at Buckminster Fuller's feet,
and hopefully to absorb some of that brilliance.
??? I'm wondering if any KD860's have been built with these luffboards,
and how they have worked out.??? They are not deep, but an asymmetric
foil operating in water can produce a lot of force.
??????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
|
??? The person to talk to about moving
a 20' wide boat would be a house mover.? While there is not even
the remotest weight comparison, their know how with regard to
loading, supporting, and transporting wide odd shaped loads, as
well as knowledge of regulation and problems, best routes, etc
would be invaluable.? They more or less construct a trailer from
the beams and dollies they have, for each specific job........ at
least the real pros do.?? Your boat of course could be hauled on
an ordinary? drop deck or lowboy trailer just fine....... even a
long goosneck equipment trailer, but the issues are permits and
such.? Roads may need to be closed briefly, turn outs found to
allow traffic to pass, trees and brush trimmed back in places.?
Choosing the right route, the right time of day, and finding
detours for traffic, and gaining the cooperation of the
authorities are all important, but it's worth going through all of
this BEFORE the boat is built....... which obviously you are
doing.
??? The more ideal solution is to build sub assemblies as much as
possible so that final assembly can be done in a boatyard.? That
bypasses all the transport problems.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? H.W.
On 11/28/2017 08:20 AM, voya12m@... [k-designs] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Hi Franco
I am planning on transporting the Voyager, upon
completion of course, to the water by means of a trailer.
The empty weight of the voyager (no mast either) should be
around 3100 kg or about 7000 lbs. Even if it weighs a bit
more, a double axle flat bed trailer meant for
transporting farm machinery should work. Maybe even a hay
bale trailer that has a pivoting forward axle. We are in a
farming area here. The hulls should be plenty strong -
enough to go unsupported. I plan to use pallets or some
other simple structure on the flat trailer with either
tires (tyres) or foam on top to support the bridge deck
between the hulls. Of course the Voyager is wide enough to
take up the entire road, so a special permit is needed for
the wide load and usually a flag truck is required to
precede the whole operation on the road. A farm tractor
will certainly be strong enough to pull it, perhaps even a
simple truck or utility vehicle. Another consideration is
the boat ramp. Most boat ramps around here are 10 or even
18 feet wide. Not wide enough. Our plan A is to use a very
gently sloping sandy and shallow pond which has canal
access to launch the boat. This requires permission from
the farmer but no permit. Plan B is to get the permit to
transport the “wide load” down to the only boat ramp wide
enough. Plan C is to get the permit to transport the boat
to the nearest boatyard which has an old crane to lift the
Voyager to the water. The attached pic is an Oram 44c.?
I think if you currently have a good place to build,
use it. There is usually a way to get the boat to the
water somehow. I think Bernd had to remove part of the
roof of the shed to get his Pelican out, and used a crane.
I have seen other pictures of a crane lifting the boat out
of the backyard and on to a big truck. The more important
issue is having plenty of time to build. And not having to
pay rent for a shed. Or at least, not having to pay very
much rent. This allows you to enjoy the building process
without the passing of time costing you financially. I
have more pictures of the build than what is on this forum
if you are interested at any point.?
Cheers
Patrick
|
no Andrew is right, 500mm from the "mastbeam" till the entrance, the 600mm till the aft beam.
Bernd
|
H.W.
Thanks for the compliments. Buckminster Fuller was in many respects ahead of his time and this for many differnt subjects. Example: the use of the geothetic constructions he invented abd used for the Lancaster. What I am telling you, you will know. I use the luffboards now also for the updaded ECO series of sailing crafts. Nobody build a KD 860 with these bords till now. Sailors in general are very conservative for new ideas. See my bow shape of the original ECO 55. The merits for this hull shape is clear, but not as a ?gimmick as on so many boats now. It was taking an other 9 years as the idea was picked up by the Swiss ALINGI crew/designers. Vertical rudder automatic, I designed for my first cat, the SC 435. Was also shown in one of the "Practical Boatowner" magazine 1981. Other climed then it was there invention years later. Now you can them see in different forms on many boats.? Never mind, Have fun
Bernd ?
|
There is a special transport for necessary. Companies exists which can do this. If you have the possibility to build on the water edge, the better I would do so
|
As stated in on the webpage in the deck house 1,9m. By the way in the hulls 2,0m
|
On 11/28/2017 12:33 AM,
andrewklees@... [k-designs] wrote:
500? loaded, 600 empty..............? That's what it looks like to
me.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? H.W.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Yep 500 & 600mm is correct for bridge deck clearance
for kd860. And hull width to lenght ratio @ waterline is
11:1 not 8:1 as far as i know.
|
Hi Franco I am planning on transporting the Voyager, upon completion of course, to the water by means of a trailer. The empty weight of the voyager (no mast either) should be around 3100 kg or about 7000 lbs. Even if it weighs a bit more, a double axle flat bed trailer meant for transporting farm machinery should work. Maybe even a hay bale trailer that has a pivoting forward axle. We are in a farming area here. The hulls should be plenty strong - enough to go unsupported. I plan to use pallets or some other simple structure on the flat trailer with either tires (tyres) or foam on top to support the bridge deck between the hulls. Of course the Voyager is wide enough to take up the entire road, so a special permit is needed for the wide load and usually a flag truck is required to precede the whole operation on the road. A farm tractor will certainly be strong enough to pull it, perhaps even a simple truck or utility vehicle. Another consideration is the boat ramp. Most boat ramps around here are 10 or even 18 feet wide. Not wide enough. Our plan A is to use a very gently sloping sandy and shallow pond which has canal access to launch the boat. This requires permission from the farmer but no permit. Plan B is to get the permit to transport the “wide load” down to the only boat ramp wide enough. Plan C is to get the permit to transport the boat to the nearest boatyard which has an old crane to lift the Voyager to the water. The attached pic is an Oram 44c.?
I think if you currently have a good place to build, use it. There is usually a way to get the boat to the water somehow. I think Bernd had to remove part of the roof of the shed to get his Pelican out, and used a crane. I have seen other pictures of a crane lifting the boat out of the backyard and on to a big truck. The more important issue is having plenty of time to build. And not having to pay rent for a shed. Or at least, not having to pay very much rent. This allows you to enjoy the building process without the passing of time costing you financially. I have more pictures of the build than what is on this forum if you are interested at any point.? Cheers Patrick
|
Can someone tell me what the height is in the new KD1000 in the hulls and bridgedeck?? Thanks.
|
Yep 500 & 600mm is correct for bridge deck clearance for kd860. And hull width to lenght ratio @ waterline is 11:1 not 8:1 as far as i know.
|
I am studying kd122 and an important parameter is whether it is transportable by (special) truck or whether it must be built near a waterway.? Anyone any idea?? Thanks? Franco?
|
Bernd:
??? ?? I ran across the "luffboard" pdfs the other day, an interesting
addition to the KD860, a much better option than a dagger board or
centerboard, and ironically it reflects the thought that always crosses
my mind when I see photos of cats with daggerboards, which I consider
too vulnerable.? Richard Woods for example offers the option of
daggerboards or mini keels, one too vulnerable to damage, and the other
reduces the draft too much.
??? On a hull with the shape of the KD860, it's a natural solution,
because the support is relatively simple.??? Leeboards are an excellent
solution for sailing craft, but tend to be ugly and look like an
afterthought, due to the need to angle them outward to get the desired
effectiveness.?? On a multihull, with it's narrow hull as compared to
monohulls, and broad beam........ and shallow heel angle, it makes
excellent sense to simply follow the hull on the inboard side like this.
??? Your outside the box thought process very much reminds me of the
engineer I greatly admired when I was in my teens.... Buckminster
Fuller.?? His solutions were based on reason and logic, with a touch of
brilliance, rather than on convention. Other teens were obsessed with
rock stars, movie stars, and sports heroes........... I would have given
my eye teeth to have had the chance to sit at Buckminster Fuller's feet,
and hopefully to absorb some of that brilliance.
??? I'm wondering if any KD860's have been built with these luffboards,
and how they have worked out.??? They are not deep, but an asymmetric
foil operating in water can produce a lot of force.
??????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
|
Re: Trailering an ECO 5.5 (or similar small cat)
Robert
A flatbed trailer is a very good solution. Normally the have a ramp for car transport. Make a device (wood will do) with wheels on each side. Tilt the boat on the bow up Place the wheel construction till the boat is almost in equilibriumand. ?Have a winch at the front to get the boat on the trailer. Fasten the boat and you are ready to go. At the ramp go backwards so that the ramp is on the wateredge. Unfasten the boat and it will go almost by itsel in the water. Remove the wheels and you are almost ready to go. There exists trailers for two bikes side by side the will also work. It is a matter to find the correct geometry that this system works. But I am sure this would be the easiest and most cost effective solution.
Bernd
|
Re: Intro [2 Attachments]
H.W.
On the Pelican we had a sort of gooseneck fitting to control the twist. On the KD 860 and the ECO 75 the mast rotates to control the twist. Yes there are also control lines to control the wishbone. This is in both version enough to control the twist in the sail. Because we use no Aluminum profile over the stay, the sail can be lowered like any normal main sail. In all the years we have had never a furler failure. I see no reason why the furler should jam. This problem from jamming mainsails is a problem when you have to roll the sail inside the mast. Then the mostly full cut main sail jams in the middle (because to much material form in this region) and yes, you have a problem. Multihulls have anyway less problems, because the corde to depth of a monohull main is normally 6 to 8 %, wheres 4 % is the maximum for fast multihulls. For a cover you can have a sleeve with a long zipper which you can set when the sail is furled.
Lucky you with a fast Internet. If there is some wind, and it is a region with much wind power failure is also a very common occurence here.?
Bernd
|
Re: Intro [2 Attachments]
Bernd:
???
??? What I was not understanding is that the wishbone and gaff are
permanently attached at the masthead.?? Your photo clearly shows
this to be the case, and also shows the sail furled to the mast,
rather than the usual? method of furling to the boom on a
mainsail.?? The wishbone & gaff here are clearly stayed so
that they cannot swing as the boom swings, which would seem to
enforce a twist.? The head of the sail is obviously drawn out to
the wishbone by a control line through a block, and I would assume
this line to be pretty important in controlling sail twist.?? The
wishbone / gaff combination is similar to a jib crane arrangement,
and clearly the wishbone allows for the head of the sail to be
slacked a bit to come at least partially in line with the boom.??
I'd love to see this rig sailing in real life.?? I can only
imagine the mess if the furler jammed and failed to work, but
that's never pretty, and invariably happens at the most
inopportune moment.?? Another question that comes to mind is how
is a sail cover installed?
??? I also live in a very remote small town with a current
population of 7 people, and the same number of dogs.?? Fortunately
for us, a main fiber optic cable passes through here, and we have
a telephone exchange sitting right on it, and so have superb
internet.??? The biggest problem here is extremely unreliable
electricity with outages ranging from 12 hours to 24 hours much
more common than they should be.?
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? H.W.
On 11/27/2017 07:40 AM, Bernd Kohler Bernd@...
[k-designs] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Hi
Funny, I
posted the wrong picture from the Ljunstr?m rig, the
intentoin was to post this one. I did it of course for
obviouse reasons, to show the difference in design
approach. I think Pete used this extreme low aspect
ratio because of his experience with "China Moon" whit
which he was very far down to the South (below 50°) and
the weather conditions there.
Okay to
the wishbone rig. As attachment a picture of a wishbone
rig on an ECO 75. Here you can see more details. The
owner was afraid of the boat. To fast for his liking
?and he gave it away for $ 7800,-!
I have no
sailing pictures or a video of the Pelican under sail,
not even one! An other time, I had a mobile phone with a
weight of 8 kgs. We are now back at 1997 or so. Als I
sold the Pelican there where no videos. By the way, in
this time you meed some other sailors some where sai in
the Aegeis sailing to Istanbul and we back perhaps to
Denia (Spain). Sometimes, for a good sip and chat where
to go next and never meed them again. I have a lot of
pictures from others boats and the will have them from
the Pelican. The never got there photos, or I mine. It
was the end of the time "bumming" around on boats for
almost nothing. We where not interested in videos or
photos, we where living our dream of freedome. A long
storry for nothing; I know, so, besides this photo, I
can show you nothing. I have a complete plan a wishbone
rig which I sell as an extra. For good measure I add
also an illustration ofte KD 860 wittis rig.?
Cheers
Bernd?
NB.:
I life relative far away from the sillivication (no
mistake) in a hamlet with now 19 inhabitants. So when I
do not answer quick, my slow or many times not working
Internetconnection is the reason.
Von:
"StoneTool owly@... [k-designs]"
An:
k-designs@...
Gesendet:
18:54 Sonntag, 26.November 2017
Betreff:
Re: [k-designs] Re: Intro
?
Bernd:
??? I know the first rig well.... It's
Arne's boat Johanna with his cambered
junk rig, The second (Dobra Kusa) I
believe is a Ljungstr?m rig, though
the photo doesn't really show it to
best effect with it's double loose
footed sails furled about a rotating
mast..... A very interesting rig. ?
Your photo of Pete's final, or at
least third iteration on Oryx, shows
great detail of how he built his
version of Paul McKay's Aerojunk rig.?
I've felt since I first saw photos of
Oryx that the aspect ratio was a bit
too low, nor could I understand why
one would truncate the upper panel,
except perhaps to serve as storm
canvas, though there are other ways
this could be done.?? The beauty of
this system is that a nicely cambered
sail can be achieved using absolutely
flat sailcloth, and the batten system
is simple and very strong.? A rugged,
and very "field serviceable" rig.?
When people comment about windage or
drag, one has only to point the
veritable birds nest of standing
rigging on most Bermuda rigs, and the
liabilities it often poses when
setting sails and tacking, and that
without mentioning the veritable house
of cards with dozens of possible
points of failure, any of which can
bring the whole thing toppling down.?
Ljungstr?m rig
??? I'd love to see a video of your
wishbone gaff rig in operation...... I
have difficulty really understanding
the details of it from the few photos
I can find.?? I've read most of your
work that is to be found on the
Duckworks website, all of which is
quite worthwhile reading, and contains
some valuable insights.?? I have a
passion for innovative, original, and
outside the box thinking.?? It's what
drives progress forward.?? Sometimes
things that didn't work out well are
of as much value as things that did,
as far as what can be learned from
them.?? Your own work only came to my
attention through Oryx, and shows the
kind of innovative outside the box
thinking, good choices, and great
flexibility of thought that I've
always admired.???
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
On 11/26/2017 06:49 AM, Bernd@...
[k-designs] wrote:
?
?You are rigth, it was not
necessary to go into the junk rig
details. I am also a memberfrom
the Junk Rig Assication. Because
there are intersting developments.
I like special some of the
Norwegian boats with there
beautiful champerd sails. I hope
also that the discussion was,
besides for you, helpful. Thanks
for all the contriputions from the
others. At last here two pictures
from complete different rigs to
make my point in this respect.?
Cheers
Bernd
|
Hi
Funny, I posted the wrong picture from the Ljunstr?m rig, the intentoin was to post this one. I did it of course for obviouse reasons, to show the difference in design approach. I think Pete used this extreme low aspect ratio because of his experience with "China Moon" whit which he was very far down to the South (below 50°) and the weather conditions there. Okay to the wishbone rig. As attachment a picture of a wishbone rig on an ECO 75. Here you can see more details. The owner was afraid of the boat. To fast for his liking ?and he gave it away for $ 7800,-! I have no sailing pictures or a video of the Pelican under sail, not even one! An other time, I had a mobile phone with a weight of 8 kgs. We are now back at 1997 or so. Als I sold the Pelican there where no videos. By the way, in this time you meed some other sailors some where sai in the Aegeis sailing to Istanbul and we back perhaps to Denia (Spain). Sometimes, for a good sip and chat where to go next and never meed them again. I have a lot of pictures from others boats and the will have them from the Pelican. The never got there photos, or I mine. It was the end of the time "bumming" around on boats for almost nothing. We where not interested in videos or photos, we where living our dream of freedome. A long storry for nothing; I know, so, besides this photo, I can show you nothing. I have a complete plan a wishbone rig which I sell as an extra. For good measure I add also an illustration ofte KD 860 wittis rig.?
Cheers Bernd?
NB.: I life relative far away from the sillivication (no mistake) in a hamlet with now 19 inhabitants. So when I do not answer quick, my slow or many times not working Internetconnection is the reason.
Von: "StoneTool owly@... [k-designs]" <k-designs@...>
An: k-designs@...
Gesendet: 18:54 Sonntag, 26.November 2017
Betreff: Re: [k-designs] Re: Intro
?
Bernd:
??? I know the first rig well.... It's Arne's boat Johanna with
his cambered junk rig, The second (Dobra Kusa) I believe is a
Ljungstr?m rig, though the photo doesn't really show it to best
effect with it's double loose footed sails furled about a rotating
mast..... A very interesting rig. ? Your photo of Pete's final, or
at least third iteration on Oryx, shows great detail of how he
built his version of Paul McKay's Aerojunk rig.? I've felt since I
first saw photos of Oryx that the aspect ratio was a bit too low,
nor could I understand why one would truncate the upper panel,
except perhaps to serve as storm canvas, though there are other
ways this could be done.?? The beauty of this system is that a
nicely cambered sail can be achieved using absolutely flat
sailcloth, and the batten system is simple and very strong.? A
rugged, and very "field serviceable" rig.? When people comment
about windage or drag, one has only to point the veritable birds
nest of standing rigging on most Bermuda rigs, and the liabilities
it often poses when setting sails and tacking, and that without
mentioning the veritable house of cards with dozens of possible
points of failure, any of which can bring the whole thing toppling
down.?
Ljungstr?m rig
??? I'd love to see a video of your wishbone gaff rig in
operation...... I have difficulty really understanding the details
of it from the few photos I can find.?? I've read most of your
work that is to be found on the Duckworks website, all of which is
quite worthwhile reading, and contains some valuable insights.?? I
have a passion for innovative, original, and outside the box
thinking.?? It's what drives progress forward.?? Sometimes things
that didn't work out well are of as much value as things that did,
as far as what can be learned from them.?? Your own work only came
to my attention through Oryx, and shows the kind of innovative
outside the box thinking, good choices, and great flexibility of
thought that I've always admired.???
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
On 11/26/2017 06:49 AM, Bernd@... [k-designs] wrote:
?
?You are rigth, it was not necessary to go into the junk
rig details. I am also a memberfrom the Junk Rig
Assication. Because there are intersting developments. I
like special some of the Norwegian boats with there
beautiful champerd sails. I hope also that the discussion
was, besides for you, helpful. Thanks for all the
contriputions from the others. At last here two pictures
from complete different rigs to make my point in this
respect.?
Cheers
Bernd
|
Re: Trailering an ECO 5.5 (or similar small cat)
To trailers
I did not want to make a new topic. I would first thank Hamish for the photos. Looks perfect, as expected from you. You a very hard working and patient person. The boat looks phantastic. And now, sailing at the weekend? Keep us informed. I am very curiouse, and you know why. By the way, can be that you need some more strands od bungee cord on the lower part of the rudder housing.
Cheers
Bernd
|
Re: Voyager plans for sale
My apologies, I thought the name Voyager was sufficient; it’s the KD122.?
Anybody interested should contact me directly at lvogtman@... so as not to clutter the forum with personal email.
Lee
|
Bernd Kohler