Re: Portable petrol tanks?
Hi Patrick. Yep theres no problem there. As previously stated, separate system for each motor and tanks in well ventilated area are the go. On my single outboard set up, I use 2 x 45l tanks plumbed into 1 fuel/ water separating filter. The filter has 2 inlet ports in it and I put a small ball valve in each port to select one or both tanks. Works well and did not cost much. There is a large selection "portable" fuel tanks out there. I personally would install the biggest ? ones that will fit in the space you have. After all you don't have to have them full all the time if weight is a problem. As for size, you might want to do some calculations in relation to fuel load and intended usage, before you get too carried away. The down side of petrol outboard motors in relation to diesel motors, is they can be thirsty. My 25hp high thrust yamaha gives 6.5 - 7 kts in calm conditions @ about 3.5 - 4l hour (1/3 - 1/2 throttle) in the Kd860. I think it uses about 9l hour @ full throttle. Does not sound like much, but if theres no wind and you have a long way to go, it soon ads up. Cheers..Andrew.
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Hi. I mean no offence, but the type of boat you describe only exists in an alternate reality.? If you want load carying ability and pleasant motion to windward, a monohull is the boat of choice. If you want to circumnavigate in a catamaran, 8.6m is too small when you consider the required payload. If you want safety in a multihull, performance is a priority unfortunately. light weight, windward ability etc. Installing a junk rig on a boat not designed for it, is a major engineering exercise. But if installing dagger boards after the fact is unappealing. how are you going to cope with the amount of design modification and construction work that would be required to turn this stock design into your dream ship? As for bridge deck clearance the kd860 is textbook @ approx 6% of w/l length @ the lowest point and more under the cockpit, were you need it most, how much do you require? As far as I know Pete Hill is using mini keels, and had one fall off, with no noticeable difference, not the AV panels. As for your rig, I don't want to weigh into the debate about efficiency, however your modern cambered junk rig is going to take a huge effort to design, build, and get working properly, as opposed to installing an bermudan rig with essentially off the shelf components. It certainly is something for the very motivated enthusiast. I don't won't to appear negative, but as they say, all boats are a compromise and the one your after is not the Kd860 or perhaps any mulltihull that would be seaworthy. I own a Kd860, and although I am very happy with it's performance, it certainly won't do what you want, from my experience. Anyway, good luck with the design hunting.
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Re: Portable petrol tanks?
Good plan and no problem. Just store them in them in fresh air and out of direct sunlight. Two 9.9 Yamaha workhorses will be plenty. On crossings you only use them if there is no wind. Then only one engine running for a speed of 5 knots. Will not even use a gallon/hour. Keep it simple and two completely separated systems for max redundancy. You have all the time to switch and fill a tank under no wind conditions.
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Op 22 nov. 2017 om 20:49 heeft voya12m@... [k-designs] < k-designs@...> het volgende geschreven:
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Hi all, does anyone have any experience using portable petrol (gasoline) tanks for the outboards on their cat? The regulations are very strict for a permanent tank mounted below deck, so that would be good to avoid. ?But if you use portable (20 liter or 5 gallon) tanks don¡¯t you have to keep switching them out at sea because you can use 5 gal rather quickly? Perhaps someone has used a Y valve attached to two different portable tanks??
I am building a 12 m Voyager, with two outboards in the 9.9 - 25 hp range. I want to be able to cross oceans, and carrying some extra jerry cans of petrol is fine. My question is about what kind of tank and size to use that will actually fuel the outboard.? Cheers Patrick
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??? I joined this group due to my interest in the KD860 and it's big brother the 980 for extended ocean cruising of the circumnavigation type..... though that is not a specific goal.??? Being a junk rig enthusiast, Pete Hill's Oryx led me to consider this boat as an option.??? Multihull is a non-negotiable for me, and ultimately junk rig is also due to the ease and safety, and many other factors that make it the best rig for short handing / single handing.?? I've been looking at trimarans, specifically Searunners and Cross boats, and while they are convertible, it's not a simple task, and the mast height drives the cost of free standing masts up rapidly, though I fundamentally prefer a single rig.? Performance is NOT a priority for me, however the modern cambered and split junk rigs perform on par overall with Bermuda rigs if properly designed, and take a fraction of the effort, hardware, etc. ???? What is pushing me toward Bernd's KD860 also is the smooth curved cabin top, rather than the chopped up deckhouse designs with all kinds of corners to create wind resistance / turbulence.?? I've concluded the obvious.... that a cat has two load bearing hulls instead of one? hull and two outriggers.?? This adds up not only to more load capacity, but also more internal space. ???? I have grave reservations about bridge deck clearance...... My calcs show about 19", but they are a bit crude, based on measuring drawings.?? Cabin height does not bother me, as this is a sitting area, but pounding when driving to windward is something that I cannot put up with.??? Both Bernd and Richard Wood build boats of similar size and bridge deck clearance..... I like Bernd's better based on the smooth contour, and other factors.?? What is lacking in the KD860 is any forward visibility inside the boat, except in the berth rooms.? To be an acceptable choice for me, it would be necessary to remedy that.? Pete Hill installed a plexiglass bubble in the saloon, obviously for that reason.? I'm imagining an aircraft style streamlined canopy forward over one of the areas that is designated as a berth........I don't need two.?? These are fairly easily blown, and it would fair into the smooth forward sloping roof, providing a wide field of view.?? ???? I'm interested in accounts of real world oceanic experience in the KD860 and it's variants......... How much pounding, and under what circumstances??? I'm not a guy to "drive" a boat hard to windward relentlessly for example......? have no reason not to back off, and I do not live by schedules.??? This boat attracts me partly because of it's diminutive size, as I will be single handing a lot.? I don't need a huge boat, I don't want one. What I want is a capable boat with good load capacity that won't let me down when I make bad choices... we all do.?? ???? I'm also concerned about the AV panels, which are one of the main "features" of this boat.? Do they really work as claimed?? Pete Hill lost at least one and claimed he couldn't tell the difference.? Having to install dagger boards "after the fact" does not appeal to me. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
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Hi all, does anyone have any experience using portable petrol (gasoline) tanks for the outboards on their cat? The regulations are very strict for a permanent tank mounted below deck, so that would be good to avoid. ?But if you use portable (20 liter or 5 gallon) tanks don¡¯t you have to keep switching them out at sea because you can use 5 gal rather quickly? Perhaps someone has used a Y valve attached to two different portable tanks??
I am building a 12 m Voyager, with two outboards in the 9.9 - 25 hp range. I want to be able to cross oceans, and carrying some extra jerry cans of petrol is fine. My question is about what kind of tank and size to use that will actually fuel the outboard.? Cheers Patrick
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Can happen. It is a known problem that partly through our information systems the attention span is getting shorter. Example Twitter, or that modern movy scenes are now about 4 seconds for movies before 1980 the scene gengtths where 12 seconds which we find now boring. I see this also by my self. Patience an other personal problem to. Never mind
Cheers
Bernd
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Re: electric motor experiments
Thanks for this great link, Jan
Hans
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Re: electric motor experiments
Hello again Hans,
One more link that explains the connection between horsepower and rated thrust -
Best,
Jan
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Hello Bernd, I don't have a short attention span, although I am not as patient as I used to be. I have no quarrel with your design - it just wasn't the right one for me after all.?
Best,
Jan
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Re: electric motor experiments
Hello Hans, You are so lucky to have such a nice neighbor!? I suggest that you get a different propeller (the ones for RC models are not the best solution). When I had an electric boat I bought one of these -?, you have to choose the one that best fits your motor. The people there were very helpful when I bought mine (5 years ago).
Best,
Jan ?
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Re: electric motor experiments
Hi Pepijn,
I've posted two pictures. I sure like to know more about the charger option and balancing.? I have a problem with one of the cells getting to 3.6 V slightly before the other three cells reach that voltage. So when I'm charging without balancing (prefered option because the balancing is fidly with all the wires going to my RC charger) that cell gets charged at about 4.2 V - but only 3.5 A.? The net is full of different opinions how much that hurts, so I'm eager to hear firsthand experience. Could you please contact me at hanszilver at kpnmail punt nl ?? Thanks and sorry for the other forum members for going into technical details, greetings from Amsterdam, Hans
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Re: electric motor experiments
Hi Hans, Very interesting! You have pictures?? I¡¯m getting more and more experience with lifepo4 batteries over the years. I have some tips for charging them using LED drivers on the cheap. Just put new life in an old forklift truck here with 8 cells of 500 ah. Driving like max verstappen now. You have to carefully choose the low and high voltage cut offs. And when staying within those boundaries there will be almost no need for balancing the cells.? Drop me a line if you want more info. You know where my boat floats;) Cheers Pepijn
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Op 21 nov. 2017 om 22:06 heeft hanszilver@... [k-designs] < k-designs@...> het volgende geschreven:
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Hello group,
FYI some thoughts about my electric propulsion experiment.
After I was warned by the port authorities that next time they saw me sailing without a motor stand by I would be fined I started an experiment with an e-motor for my little tri. Unfortunately using a gas motor here in Amsterdam is very expensive because of eco-government measures (and 2 stroke motors are completely forbidden).
I got inspiration (or should I say I just copied the setup) from a gentleman in this thread (see post 252). On a standard 40 lbs trolling motor I use an inexpensive RC propeller and spinner. Also for speed control I use a pwm controller insead of the standard inefficient resistance based speed control of the trolling motor.
For batterys I bought 4 lifepo4 cells, 40 Ah?
weight : motor 7 kg, battery and controller also 7 kg
cost : motor free (from a neighbour who was very dissapointed with the speed he could get. list price 220 euro), controller 90 euro, battery and connectors 300 euro, charger 50 euro.
I made a few test outings already, some with quite a lot of wind. This is what I learned : - Very luxureous feeling being near silently propelled (the "real" efficient electric outboards are noisy because they use a high speed motor and gear reduction - more efficient and lighter but noisy) - With no wind and a speed of 6km/h (3,3 knot) my range is about 16 km. top speed is about 8 km/h (4,4 knot) with range of about 8 km. - With moderate headwind I can still attain 6 km/h (altough at full power) - With stiff headwind (and waves ?) you realise that the power of the motor at the propeller is only about 0,3 hp....... There's no comparison to a normal outboard. - I don't like the extra weight and hassle of the engine and battery. Had my first sailing accident ever (colided at a speed of 7 knots with houseboat while wrestling to get motor out of the water ;-(? ) - charging takes ages (with my small charger - with a bigger one that wouldn't be a problem, but that would be heavier and more expensive)
Overall I think for my small boat e-propulsion is do-able, but expensive and heavy. The propeller modification turns the trolling motor from "unusable" to "just usable". My old (and in Amsterdam not allowed) 2 stroke 2hp yamaha is much lighter and much stronger.? BUT I have to say again that leisurely slipping along in silence feels nice.
Greetings from Amsterdam, Hans
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electric motor experiments
Hello group,
FYI some thoughts about my electric propulsion experiment.
After I was warned by the port authorities that next time they saw me sailing without a motor stand by I would be fined I started an experiment with an e-motor for my little tri. Unfortunately using a gas motor here in Amsterdam is very expensive because of eco-government measures (and 2 stroke motors are completely forbidden).
I got inspiration (or should I say I just copied the setup) from a gentleman in this thread (see post 252). https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/efficient-electric-boat.27996/page-17 On a standard 40 lbs trolling motor I use an inexpensive RC propeller and spinner. Also for speed control I use a pwm controller insead of the standard inefficient resistance based speed control of the trolling motor.
For batterys I bought 4 lifepo4 cells, 40 Ah?
weight : motor 7 kg, battery and controller also 7 kg
cost : motor free (from a neighbour who was very dissapointed with the speed he could get. list price 220 euro), controller 90 euro, battery and connectors 300 euro, charger 50 euro.
I made a few test outings already, some with quite a lot of wind. This is what I learned : - Very luxureous feeling being near silently propelled (the "real" efficient electric outboards are noisy because they use a high speed motor and gear reduction - more efficient and lighter but noisy) - With no wind and a speed of 6km/h (3,3 knot) my range is about 16 km. top speed is about 8 km/h (4,4 knot) with range of about 8 km. - With moderate headwind I can still attain 6 km/h (altough at full power) - With stiff headwind (and waves ?) you realise that the power of the motor at the propeller is only about 0,3 hp....... There's no comparison to a normal outboard. - I don't like the extra weight and hassle of the engine and battery. Had my first sailing accident ever (colided at a speed of 7 knots with houseboat while wrestling to get motor out of the water ;-(? ) - charging takes ages (with my small charger - with a bigger one that wouldn't be a problem, but that would be heavier and more expensive)
Overall I think for my small boat e-propulsion is do-able, but expensive and heavy. The propeller modification turns the trolling motor from "unusable" to "just usable". My old (and in Amsterdam not allowed) 2 stroke 2hp yamaha is much lighter and much stronger.? BUT I have to say again that leisurely slipping along in silence feels nice.
Greetings from Amsterdam, Hans
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Hi Philip
My appology, but now I know who you are as I was looking on some of the pictures here,
cheers
Bernd
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Here two photos froma a CATAPROA build in Germany.The customer has not much time to build, but what he is building looks good. Here the main hull and the daggerboard box.?I have more photos from the build, but here the latest.
Bernd
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Hello Philip
Some time ago that we where communicating, when I am right who you are. I hope not only Robert will read your response, because you have a lot experience. Never mind. I fully agree to your explications.? I am not so much concered regarding Epoxy on the skin. Of course work with Vinyle cloves. DO not use the cheap chirurgical gloves. Epoxy penetrates over time. If you have some Epoxy on your skin, clean it of with vinegar! and washing your hands afterwards. Sanding is a different matter. After about 64 hours Epoxy is fully cured and not toxic anymore. Sanding produces a lot of dust. Do not breat in the dust (any dust) ?it is advisable to whear a mask for sanding.? I did not know that you was building a CATAPROA. Any info concerning the boat, pictures, sailing impressions would be nice. I will place after this letter two pictures from a new Cataproa under construction in Germany.
Bernd
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Hello Robert
Yes you are right, I mean the Bosch PEC 400 AE. I have no idea what a track shaw is but use whatever suits you. The cutouts for the stringers and other small parts a jigsaw is very useful, and not only for these cut outs, there many more to make. You have read here a lot of good advice, so it will be not so difficult anymore to make your choice. Philip was given a very good tip with a long plank with sanding paper. I forgot it a bit, I use this also regularely. This is a very flexible way, you vcan make the long or short. A longe one for example to get a good smoth surface on a planked hull. With a rotating sander it is easy to get rotation marks! Never happen with a plank. Read and follow the advice of Philip also in regart to his other points (pre impregnation etc). I made a schematic which is part of the construction manual how to work parallel (also building an other part in the time a part cures for the SC 435. I added also when to order things. This can be done for a smal boat but would take to much time to do this for bigger projects. Good planning is 1/3 of the work. Regarding the ECO 6. The hulls are build with a spacing of say 70cm. No clampering around here. The situation changes when you have the beams, respectively the bridge deck added. But in the end, the work on the ECO 6 is a lot more. The work is going up not linear, but the boat is wider also. The accomotation takes also a lot more time. I think it is wise to stay with the ECO 5.5.
Bernd
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Swiftrider, a lot has been said about tools all true, but remember a good artisan never blames the tools. It is your skill in using the tools that give the required result. As far as sanding is concerned I just finished a Cataproa and have not used a power sander on it, make yourself a few different long block sanders from 10 mm plywood it smooth and fast. I use 80 grid on it it is called production paper by the panel beating fraternity and you buy 50 mm wide rolls. I have found on my first boat built that hand and machine sanding take the same time I ended up hand sanding. As far as building time is concerned, the planning and thinking take a lot of time, do this elsewhere and not in the workshop with idle hands. In the workshop work. You can think and plan when doing tedious jobs.? Remember to epoxy all panels beforehand and even the stringers, you want to do the minimum sealing once the boat is assembled as some places is nearly impossible to reach.? Protect yourself from epoxy, no epoxy on skin and not breathing it or the dust either use activated carbon filter cheers. Philip malan
On Sunday, November 19, 2017, 8:00:45 PM GMT+2, swiftrider4@... [k-designs] wrote:
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Hi Bernd,
thanks again. I think I will buy the?Bosch PEC 400 AE sander ( a REC sander doesn't seem to exist).? I am still considering the Festool?jigsaw because I am not sure whether I really need a jigsaw at all.? I think I will need a track saw?to make the long cuts for the planking, but I could make, for instance, the small cutouts in the bulkheads for the stringers with a hand jigsaw. Pls let me know if you think that is a grave mistake...
I am tempted?by your idea to build the ECO 6 with a slightly smaller beam so it can pas my garage doors.? However, that still leaves me with the slight problem that I will have very limited working space around the hulls, at least if am going to build them parallel to each other. I would have to clamber under a hull each time I want to get to the other side instead of simply walking around. So I am not so sure whether I will follow up on this suggestion. After all, the ECO 5.5 offers everything?the ECO 6 has, only a little less space on board...
Thanks anyhow Robert
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Thanks, David, I think you are right, I will not over-invest in tools. However, I currently have only some very amateur and often old tools, so I will have to buy a few new ones for this project.? But I will take your advice (and that of many others) and invest in a good sander since sanding will apparently absorb a large percentage of the total project effort :-)
Cheers Robert?
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Hi Bernd,
thanks again. I think I will buy the?Bosch PEC 400 AE sander ( a REC sander doesn't seem to exist).? I am still considering the Festool?jigsaw because I am not sure whether I really need a jigsaw at all.? I think I will need a track saw?to make the long cuts for the planking, but I could make, for instance, the small cutouts in the bulkheads for the stringers with a hand jigsaw. Pls let me know if you think that is a grave mistake...
I am tempted?by your idea to build the ECO 6 with a slightly smaller beam so it can pas my garage doors.? However, that still leaves me with the slight problem that I will have very limited working space around the hulls, at least if am going to build them parallel to each other. I would have to clamber under a hull each time I want to get to the other side instead of simply walking around. So I am not so sure whether I will follow up on this suggestion. After all, the ECO 5.5 offers everything?the ECO 6 has, only a little less space on board...
Thanks anyhow Robert
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Bernd Kohler
Philip Malan
Robert Twiss