¿ªÔÆÌåÓý


Moderated KD 122 Italy

 

Hello Bernd before painting the boat we are finishing the construction of the A-frame mast some small details are missing I have a good welder.
Next week we raise the mast to measure the stay and the central one of the mainsail.
ciao


Moderated Eco75 part built For Sale

 

Hi All,

Due to ill health, I have had to stop building my ECO75. One hull is largely built and Coppercoated, with the second hull having side skins, but not the bottom skins fitted. It is standard except the transoms have been extended by circa 300mm since I intended to fit twin outboards. There are also 2 new 60 litre plastic fuel tanks. No work has been started on the bridgedeck. There are lots of pictures on the forum.

I have enough 2.4 x 1.2m sheets of marine ply (Robbins Elite) to finish the boat and also much of the Douglas Fir needed. I am located in Hampshire UK. If anybody has any (serious) interest please get in touch and I can send you further details. I am only looking for a reasonable price for the remaining plywood sheets and Douglas Fir, the hulls and plans are a give away.
Buyer will have to collect.

Regards
Richard Flegg


Moderated Re: Build time

 

Confucius said: when you check many times, you waste time, but when you don't, you waste a lot more ! Here is a little tool that saves me a lot of time. There are blades of all widths and it is easy to saw to the correct depth with a small mark made with tape. As for my grandmother's knife, it makes very regular little joints....

?


Re: Voyager plans for sale

 

Hello Olivier, 5 years later but I have to ask just in case. Are these plans and stuff still available?
Stanko


Moderated Re: Build time

 

You are right. Having the tools, including the clamps, in the same place is always handy and saves time.
When working with Epoxy, inevitably, there are stains on the tools.?
Remove these after the work is done but within the timeframe of typically four hours. At this time, the smears and stains
can be removed with vinegar without using aggressive solutions.


Moderated Re: Build time

 

Hey, always hard estimating project when you DIY all by your own at free time and when family and duties around. But yes, funny. Searching for tools must be included to the list of things. Workaround? will be to place cheap stuff like pencils all around strategically as well as organising yourself better always return tools to the same place after work. Regards.


Moderated Re: Build time

 

It is good to think but this does not complete the boat. Think every day of one item to complete and do it, Do not try to complete the whole boat at once. If you finish a small piece and another by the time you wipe your eyes the boat is finished and can be enjoyed.
Cheers
Philip Malan

On Saturday, 29 April 2023 at 18:44:40 SAST, Bernd Kohler <ikarus342000@...> wrote:


Interesting. To start this. It is almost philosophical.

Are you a sailor builder or a builder sailor? What do I mean?

I had clients special in the smaller boat range, where this was evident.

?

A granddad was building a beautiful boat, almost too nice to go sailing with it. In the end, he gave the boat to his grandchild to sail the boat. He built it because he liked creating something with his hands.

?

A surgeon came to me. Mister, when I buy a kit for the SC 435 can I build it in four weeks? Because I want to use it in my holiday next month. Okay, he builds the boat in four weeks.

?

A postman was one of my first clients. He was buying an SC 435 plan. He had to use the living room to build the boat. His wife was giving him four weeks, otherwise, she would kick him and the boat out. He made it. I could go on.

Some projects ended up on the rubbish heap, but not many.

I do not design only boats; I have also built 13 of them.

?

I understand the frustration of many builders. Looks like a never-ending story. But you have it in your hands! And more so, use first your brain and then your hands.

I say, when you think you have 90% of your boat finished, there is only the final 90 % to do.

?

This sounds negative, it is overdoing but an excellent thing to start with. Most important, prepare your project as best as you can.

?

For the wood, glass, and epoxy composite system you need not many tools. But if you have to buy them, for a bigger project, buy the best quality tool you can afford.

For example, you can buy a cheap, wobbly jigsaw or, say, a Festo jigsaw with ceramic saw blade guides, a powerful engine, easy to adjust settings. After a short learning time, you can saw easily with an accuracy of say 1 mm without a lot of chipping on the cuts, which means, almost no sanding after the piece is cut out. This saves you days of sanding work. Other tools you should look for the best are sanding tools.

I use still my ORKA flatbed sander with a sway radius of 5mm and good speed control. Sanding paper Aluminum oxide paper. For most work, grid 80 is a good choice. All other tools you will have already.

?

As a reminder, do not change the design. I know how to design in the wood/epoxy composite system. I know what works and what does not. Any change in the basic design will change the character of the boat. And also makes the boat unpredictable to build. I can see this here sometimes, and some will end as a hangar queen as we call this in aircraft development, or a boat that disappoints in use. I give anyway a lot of freedom to individualize the boat.

Make yourself a clear plan of how to start and build. Order, if possible the whole material to build the basic boat in one go. If you have to order items, order them in time. It is frustrating when you have to wait for Epoxy not ordered in time.

One of the least liked works is sanding. A euphemism to call it that, I know. So eliminate any cause to have to sand. Pre-impregnate the plywood panels with Epoxy and sand them before you make the first line. This saves weeks of sanding on the boat itself. See the video

? Here is the example to impregnate all bulkheads for the P 7 power boat. To sand in between to remove the upstanding wood fiber. I put the flatbed sander on the plywood and guide the sander only. No pressure is needed, and no extra heat will be generated to block the sanding paper.

Other examples. I prefer to apply the glass cloth horizontally. Meaning for a KD 860 only one glass cloth connection line. Vertical, it would be 10, which are difficult to sand.

Epoxy needs no pressure to connect parts. Use screws to hold parts in places where necessary to outline pieces. For the bigger parts, plastic nails, clamps, tape on small boats, are sufficient. Every screw means, for instance, 10 to 15 minutes of work to remove, fill the hole, and sand to fit to the structure. Sounds not much? Let's look. An 8,5 m long boat will need every 200 mm a screw to fasten, say to the chine stringer. Meaning 43 screws. Multiply with 10 minutes = 430 minutes, a bit more than 7 hours. If you need only to connect the panels, you need 6 screws. 6 x 10, meaning 1 hour. Compare.

Yes, I also know the problem of having 10 pens in the workshop and can not find one. But reduce this to a minimum and it helps to finish your boat in a shorter time.On the other side, there must also be time for a chat and a beer

Bernd


Photo: SC 435. This is the boat from the postman taken 1980

?

?

?

?

?

?

?



?

?

?

?


Moderated Re: Build time

 

Interesting. To start this. It is almost philosophical.

Are you a sailor builder or a builder sailor? What do I mean?

I had clients special in the smaller boat range, where this was evident.

?

A granddad was building a beautiful boat, almost too nice to go sailing with it. In the end, he gave the boat to his grandchild to sail the boat. He built it because he liked creating something with his hands.

?

A surgeon came to me. Mister, when I buy a kit for the SC 435 can I build it in four weeks? Because I want to use it in my holiday next month. Okay, he builds the boat in four weeks.

?

A postman was one of my first clients. He was buying an SC 435 plan. He had to use the living room to build the boat. His wife was giving him four weeks, otherwise, she would kick him and the boat out. He made it. I could go on.

Some projects ended up on the rubbish heap, but not many.

I do not design only boats; I have also built 13 of them.

?

I understand the frustration of many builders. Looks like a never-ending story. But you have it in your hands! And more so, use first your brain and then your hands.

I say, when you think you have 90% of your boat finished, there is only the final 90 % to do.

?

This sounds negative, it is overdoing but an excellent thing to start with. Most important, prepare your project as best as you can.

?

For the wood, glass, and epoxy composite system you need not many tools. But if you have to buy them, for a bigger project, buy the best quality tool you can afford.

For example, you can buy a cheap, wobbly jigsaw or, say, a Festo jigsaw with ceramic saw blade guides, a powerful engine, easy to adjust settings. After a short learning time, you can saw easily with an accuracy of say 1 mm without a lot of chipping on the cuts, which means, almost no sanding after the piece is cut out. This saves you days of sanding work. Other tools you should look for the best are sanding tools.

I use still my ORKA flatbed sander with a sway radius of 5mm and good speed control. Sanding paper Aluminum oxide paper. For most work, grid 80 is a good choice. All other tools you will have already.

?

As a reminder, do not change the design. I know how to design in the wood/epoxy composite system. I know what works and what does not. Any change in the basic design will change the character of the boat. And also makes the boat unpredictable to build. I can see this here sometimes, and some will end as a hangar queen as we call this in aircraft development, or a boat that disappoints in use. I give anyway a lot of freedom to individualize the boat.

Make yourself a clear plan of how to start and build. Order, if possible the whole material to build the basic boat in one go. If you have to order items, order them in time. It is frustrating when you have to wait for Epoxy not ordered in time.

One of the least liked works is sanding. A euphemism to call it that, I know. So eliminate any cause to have to sand. Pre-impregnate the plywood panels with Epoxy and sand them before you make the first line. This saves weeks of sanding on the boat itself. See the video

? Here is the example to impregnate all bulkheads for the P 7 power boat. To sand in between to remove the upstanding wood fiber. I put the flatbed sander on the plywood and guide the sander only. No pressure is needed, and no extra heat will be generated to block the sanding paper.

Other examples. I prefer to apply the glass cloth horizontally. Meaning for a KD 860 only one glass cloth connection line. Vertical, it would be 10, which are difficult to sand.

Epoxy needs no pressure to connect parts. Use screws to hold parts in places where necessary to outline pieces. For the bigger parts, plastic nails, clamps, tape on small boats, are sufficient. Every screw means, for instance, 10 to 15 minutes of work to remove, fill the hole, and sand to fit to the structure. Sounds not much? Let's look. An 8,5 m long boat will need every 200 mm a screw to fasten, say to the chine stringer. Meaning 43 screws. Multiply with 10 minutes = 430 minutes, a bit more than 7 hours. If you need only to connect the panels, you need 6 screws. 6 x 10, meaning 1 hour. Compare.

Yes, I also know the problem of having 10 pens in the workshop and can not find one. But reduce this to a minimum and it helps to finish your boat in a shorter time.On the other side, there must also be time for a chat and a beer

Bernd


Photo: SC 435. This is the boat from the postman taken 1980

?

?

?

?

?

?

?



?

?

?

?


Moderated Re: Build time

 

Yup, I can attest to it. ?This is a world wide phenomenon. Disappearing tools, especially when a workshop is well organized and not messy (well, okay, maybe a bit messy and maybe not so well organized) are the cost of a ?great deal of unproductive lost time when building a boat. And experience seems to aggravate the problem. More boats built = more disappearing tools = more lost time searching for them.


Moderated Re: Build time

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Ho boy you all right on this one

10min job can take 1hrs !

I pass more time try find the tool a just have in hand 1 min ago!!!?
Magical moment of construction (or gremlins?)
? ??

And nothing is more permanent then temporary thing!
That why you always need to finish what you are doing straight to the end?

Have good weekends all
Keep smiling ??


Envoy¨¦ depuis mon appareil Galaxy




Moderated Build time

 

It is impossible to predict the time needed to self build a boat. Quite simply because Einstein's law of relativity applies to it. First, there is the time for reflection before starting, which can go on forever. Then there is the time for fine-tuning, planing to the millimeter, sanding, errors, omissions, adaptations...
But above all, there is a phenomenon that no one talks about, it is the disappearance of tools and the time spent looking for them. We put them in one place but they move on their own, because when we turn around, they are no longer there! It is then necessary to seek everywhere where the pencil, the eraser, the set square are hidden, all of which sneer while waiting to be found. Well, that's how it is with me ; elsewhere in the world, I don't know.


Moderated Re: Eco 7.5 build

 

Looks good, thanks


Moderated Re: Eco 7.5 build

 

Hi Geoff

I used the same system on my Duo 480 except I used fibreglass tubing not pvc. If it had been a bigger boat I would have used a few mechanical fastenings as well in strategic locations. And i used fibreglass rod inside the tubing, not SS

cheers, Bryan


Moderated Re: Eco 7.5 build

 

Brilliant thank you! That¡¯s what I imagined it would be.?


Moderated Re: Eco 7.5 build

 

This is not mine, but it is easier to see. I do not have the notches cut out of mine yet.
Patrick


Moderated Re: Duo 900 Italy

 

Thank you for that suggestion, David. More options to consider... just when I thought I was getting to the end. :-) The Hobie mast is a solid aluminum one - fortunately not one with the comp-tip. The mast head is a large single sheave which does not allow attaching a mast head light or wind indicator or such and that is why I want to change it. I will keep your idea in mind when I get to the mast. Just now, I am still looking for that "good enough" point on sanding the topsides after fibreglassing it all. -)


Moderated Re: Eco 7.5 build

 

Thank you Patrick! I¡¯m pretty sure I get what you are talking about and I appreciate you explaining that. If you have any photos of your setup that would also be appreciated but if not that¡¯s okay too. ?




On Tuesday, April 25, 2023, 08:21, voya12m via groups.io <voya12m@...> wrote:

Hi Geoff
To attach the trampoline netting to the hull, I used a method where you epoxy glue a sanded pvc pipe to the hull, preferably at deck level. Then you glass over the pvc pipe, multiple layers. There is no strength in the pvc pipe, just the glass. Then you make V cuts every 150mm or so in the pipe with a grinder. Then you insert a stainless steel rod into the pipe. The V cuts allow you to lace your netting to the rod inside the pipe. This method is not great if you place your trampoline below the deck level because the net pulls the glass away from the hull. You could drill holes above and below the pipe and attach the pipe with carbon to the hull through the holes; that is easy but it is more work. And if your net is at deck level you don¡¯t need the carbon.?

Another way is to attach a sail track to the hull at the trampoline level and lace the net to slugs that you slide into the track. There needs to be a stringer inside the hull to receive the screws. And you need to drill oversize holes, then fill them with epoxy, then put your screws into the epoxy, so no screws are actually touching wood. ?

Patrick


Moderated Re: Duo 900 Italy

 

Rod, does your Hobie 16 mast have a comptip or is it a single length of Aluminum? It makes a big difference on how to build a new masthead. If it is Aluminum, you can just reuse the original masthead.

I have made a bunch of mast fittings using polyester resin and fiberglass chopped strand mat. Strength is only 13,000 psi but it can be any shape you want and is pretty much the same strength in all directions (isotropic). To put it into perspective, the fiberglass has to be just over double the thickness of Aluminum to be the same strength. This particular fiberglass material does not have grain like wood, doesn't rot and takes paint well. It can also be re-shaped by woodworking tools after molding.

I make molds from rigid foam and cover them with packing tape. Even semi-enclosed components can be made this way. I just use a small amount of acetone to melt the foam after the fiberglass is cured and then pick out the left over packing tape from the inside of the part with long-nose pliers.

Wood and plaster of paris can be used to make less complicated molds that are not enclosed. Again, covering the mold with packing tape will work as mold release.

David M

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 09:08:59 AM PDT, Rod McLaren <nkosuohene@...> wrote:


7/8 months? So for us normal boatbuilding people, maybe 15 months. Not bad for such cool design. Once again, Dominico, I am super impressed not only by the quality of your work but also your speed. And that Duo900 looks like it will be fast.

I am curious about the mast head. Do you have any other shots with more detail of the mast head? I will be shortening the mast from a Hobie 16 for my ECO 6 and building a new mast head for it. I am thinking of using wood (both plywood and some solid wood) reinforced with carbon fibre. Any advice?


Moderated Re: Eco 7.5 build

 

Hi Geoff
To attach the trampoline netting to the hull, I used a method where you epoxy glue a sanded pvc pipe to the hull, preferably at deck level. Then you glass over the pvc pipe, multiple layers. There is no strength in the pvc pipe, just the glass. Then you make V cuts every 150mm or so in the pipe with a grinder. Then you insert a stainless steel rod into the pipe. The V cuts allow you to lace your netting to the rod inside the pipe. This method is not great if you place your trampoline below the deck level because the net pulls the glass away from the hull. You could drill holes above and below the pipe and attach the pipe with carbon to the hull through the holes; that is easy but it is more work. And if your net is at deck level you don¡¯t need the carbon.?

Another way is to attach a sail track to the hull at the trampoline level and lace the net to slugs that you slide into the track. There needs to be a stringer inside the hull to receive the screws. And you need to drill oversize holes, then fill them with epoxy, then put your screws into the epoxy, so no screws are actually touching wood. ?

Patrick


Moderated Re: Duo 900 Italy

 

Hi Rod
The Duo 900 is not a difficult construction, you have to pay attention to two crucial phases.
First you have to be careful about the positioning of the BHs because when we are going to close on one side with the plating, the rear part tends to lean due to the weight and therefore when we place the plating on one side, we have to put support poles underneath .
According to the locations of the placement of the pipes, you must have the 180mm pipes immediately
? and once the hulls have been turned, position the two tubes with screws without resin and after that it will be easier to finish everything.
?
On the head of the mast is a glued mahogany plywood, resin and fiber cap. Immediately below the two recessed blocks in front and behind. Soon I will put some photos on the wing mast.
If you are interested in the wing mast I have templates to build it even 9mt at no cost ;-)