Hi Z
I am a bit late with my answer.? I like the biplane rig also better for the boat.?
Send me a notice to my private mail address (bernd@...) and
I send you the drawing for the wetting machine.
Thanks for the new photos. Nice progress

Cheers

Bernd

Interesting Cyryl, from where the parameters came?

Cyril

This is really intersting. But as you mentioned, more suitable for production boats.
It is also what you want.?

Cheers

Bernd

David, I do agree with you as it pertains to the minimum hours and cost.?

P?

Not so funny Bernd ...

I checked with the first price list I found :

Beneteau Oceanis 30 : 85 000 €
40 : 204 500 € with my mathematical formula : (40/30) x (40/30) x (40/30) x 85 000 = 199 000 €, not so far from 204 500 €
50 : 393 000 € with my mathematical formula : (50/40) x (50/40) x (50/40) x 204 500 = 399 400 €, very closed 393 000 € !!!

This formula could not apply to your boats but seems to be right with "industrial".



----- Mail original -----
De: "Bernd Kohler" <ikarus342000@...>
?: [email protected]
Envoy¨¦: Mardi 17 Novembre 2020 16:51:55
Objet: Re: [K-Designs-Multihull-Sailboats] KD860 as a Liveaboard and ocean cruising.

Let's start with a question addressing Cyril. What is this for a funny formula? Not helpful. Bud, a bit of fun is never bad ;-))
It is always for what as a designer I am striving for.
First, I am designing sailing boats and not motor sailors what is now falsely and misleading sold as a sailboat. I had some days ago
a request to re-design the KD 122 to have two refrigerators with freezers. Electric kitchen, 2 inboard engines of 80 HP. I refused and
was telling him buy a Lagoon.
Now costs, when you add all these things which are possible?? In this size of boat, then the costs explode. The KD 122 is precise the
opposite. The boat has the accommodation of a 10 m catamaran. The added length is to have better movement at sea, making the boat faster, more seaworthy and more comfortable.
Comfortable in the sense of peace of mind in bad weather and also softer movements. The costs go up in principle for 8 more plywood panels, the necessary Epoxy add glass cloth.
The shape of the cabin was dictated by the necessity to have a self righting design. Experiments with the Bionic cat from some years ago and the Concerto designed and built by students of the
university at Delft, department ship building. The made tests on the Ijselmeer (the Netherlands). They needed 25 kg on the mast top to right the boat. See bad picture from the boat.
This as an example how I am thinking when designing a boat. Many times form follows function. Never follow trends but logic

David,
I think for the average person considering a big boat project, hours and cost might be even more closely linked to work style and fitting out preferences. It takes a good amount of experience to be both fast and accurate in the build. And it is very possible to be fast and cheap with your fit out, but very possible to take a long time and cost a lot.?

Patrick

Let's start with a question addressing Cyril. What is this for a funny formula? Not helpful. Bud, a bit of fun is never bad ;-))?
It is always for what as a designer I am striving for.?
First, I am designing sailing boats and not motor sailors what is now falsely and misleading sold as a sailboat. I had some days ago
a request to re-design the KD 122 to have two refrigerators with freezers. Electric kitchen, 2 inboard engines of 80 HP. I refused and
was telling him buy a Lagoon.
Now costs, when you add all these things which are possible?? In this size of boat, then the costs explode. The KD 122 is precise the
opposite. The boat has the accommodation of a 10 m catamaran. The added length is to have better movement at sea, making the boat faster, more seaworthy and more comfortable.
Comfortable in the sense of peace of mind in bad weather and also softer movements. The costs go up in principle for 8 more plywood panels, the necessary Epoxy add glass cloth.??
The shape of the cabin was dictated by the necessity to have a self righting design. Experiments with the Bionic cat from some years ago and the Concerto designed and built by students of the?
university at Delft, department ship building. The made tests on the Ijselmeer (the Netherlands). They needed 25 kg on the mast top to right the boat. See bad picture from the boat.
This as an example how I am thinking when designing a boat. Many times form follows function. Never follow trends but logic

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Have again a real good look at the design of the pelican with the following in mind: I lived on the Pelican and it is absolutely brilliant for that. Form follows function and man, it is functional. A few things that made me happy was the safety on board, like enclosed cockpit where kids don¡¯t fall out and no green water comes in, the streamlined shape for winds coming from behind. Not many cats have that and running from bad weather gets so much more comfortable. And lots of payload and room inside. I had the version of the pelican adapted for the Northsea. There is a video of the boat somewhere on youtube.

Hi,

I think that if the price of a 10 m is 100

the price of a 12 m (20% longer) will be : 100 x (1,2 x 1,2 x 1,2) = 172 !

Nice day,

Cyril

----- Mail original -----
De: "David Mancebo via groups.io" <mancebodesigns@...>
?: [email protected]
Envoy¨¦: Mardi 17 Novembre 2020 04:47:22
Objet: Re: [K-Designs-Multihull-Sailboats] KD860 as a Liveaboard and ocean cruising.




Patrick, The Voyager is 66 percent bigger than the KD860 and 19% bigger than the KD1000. Boats are more accurately compared by weight than by length. Labor hours and cost are more closely linked to weight than length.



David

Samuel
Might I humbly suggest the Voyager 122 design. It is two meters longer than your ideal length but the accommodation parts are similar to a 10m design and it is quite light for its size. And it has a proper deck house.

Just a thought.
Patrick?

Thanks David.
You made perfect sense considering the weight carrying capacity and space. These have been the concerns, despite the fact that the size is exactly what I want.
Realistically, going for something like the Pelican would be ideal but I'm really not a fan of the design.
I can only hope that maybe Bernd will come up with a 10mtr version.
I would like to hear experiences of others sailing with KD860 as well.

Rgds
Samuel

Hi there
The KD 860 is a seaworthy catamaran as is. Hi is big enough with all the stuff necessary for ocean passages for two persons.
But will be too cramped for four. For costal trips with four he is okay. But only the food you need say to sail from Tenerife to the Carib. Also, a fast
Journey will take 18 days. Food, clothing, water. There is no room for four. Consider the KD 1000 this boat is capable for any ocean passage for
4 persons. What Pete did was okay. But we changed a lot. The KD 1000 did not exist when he was building the stretched KD 860.?

Bernd?

Good day all,
I am thinking of building the KD860 for live aboard (2 Adults and 2 kids) and ocean cruising. Is this a suitable boat for that purpose??
I need advice from those of you that have built this boat with regards to performance and comfortability.?
I am thinking of raising the cockpit height by 0.5m. Is this alteration possible??
Thanks

Thank you for your reply.
I totally agree with your statement "Bernd designs robust boats with simplicity, lightness, and ease of construction in mind. " I know building the cat is the simplest part compare with fittings and finishes, in my opinion anyway. Hence my concern.
You are doing a wonderful job.
Goodbye,
C.

Hello Canada ;-))))
You see what Patrick is doing. Yes, it is a big project.
My plans are complete, also for specific parts like the wishbone...See Patrick's
photo presentation.?
To the Wharram rig. 1980 boat show Amsterdam. Hanneke and James were very interested on my carbon yard
and the drawing for the butterfly. The photo was made in the Autumn of 1980. I think needs not more
Cheers
Bernd