Ian Farrier: It is with a heavy heart that I tell you Ian Farrier passed away in San Francisco on his way back from the USA yesterday. We are in deep shock as we come to terms with the huge loss of our captain, and our focus is on Ian¡¯s immediate family and the Farrier Marine team. Ian was a visionary, a multihull genius, an all-round nice guy who leaves behind a huge legacy to the sailing world....
Sadly,
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yes, i was satisfied with the performance and what i liked even more was the simplicy of raising lowering, automatic raising in case running on ground and of course it did not take any additional space. I had teflon washers between the box and board so it was running more smoothly.? ?I would consider again such setup if i'll need boards in the future. BR, Primoz
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Very nice, thank you !
Pat
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Bernd,
thanks for the encouragement. No I have not been sailing yet, I will post images and comments just as soon as I do though. Great to hear the yacht has created interest on the Duckworks Site. I was in buying supplies for the yacht a couple of weeks ago and got chatting to the store attendant, he was intrigued by what I was doing and as soon as I showed him an image of the design he recognised what it was and who the designer was. You are a legend! (Kiwi slang for all round good guy!)
Merry Christmas
Hamish?
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I have wondered if the pivot-base drags in the water when heeled. It looks like it would in waves at least. Did you ever notice it dragging? Daggerboards are notorious for picking up debris, even more so, leeboards. Was picking up debris a common problem on your Windrush?
From: "primoz.kolar@... [k-designs]"
To: k-designs@...
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: [k-designs] Re: Leeboards
?
Hi guys, i was not really following the luff/lee-board discussion, just seen it now.?Might be interesting to share with you I had the luff boards on the Windrush 600 catamaran (LOA 6,0 m). It's an Australian cat from 1980+. The box was from cast aluminium and a alu-plate top plate screved to the hull. Attach some photos (had issues with attaching so links below) where the box is visible and the boards (i guess they were somewhere 1,0-1,2m x 0,3m). The boards were pulled in down position by a rubber band and from that point safe in case hitting an obstacle/ground. They were raised by pulling the 2nd rope from the trampoline and fixing in a cleat. Worked quite ok.? Regards,Primoz
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Primoz:
???
??? There was concern expressed about lifting and lowering
luffboards as part of tacking........?? I'd be interested in
knowing your experience and use of these boards.??? Do you leave
both down when doing short tacks, or find it useful or necessary
to lift one to get through the tack quickly.
??? I like the idea of the "rubber band".? Was tension kept on the
band all the time, or released when lifting the board?
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Howard
On 12/10/2017 03:28 AM, primoz.kolar@... [k-designs] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Hi guys,
i
was not really following the luff/lee-board discussion,
just seen it now.?Might be interesting to share with you I
had the luff boards on the Windrush 600 catamaran (LOA 6,0
m). It's an Australian cat from 1980+. The box was from
cast aluminium and a alu-plate top plate screved to the
hull. Attach some photos (had issues with attaching so
links below) where the box is visible and the boards (i
guess they were somewhere 1,0-1,2m x 0,3m). The boards
were pulled in down position by a rubber band and from
that point safe in case hitting an obstacle/ground. They
were raised by pulling the 2nd rope from the trampoline
and fixing in a cleat. Worked quite ok.?
Regards,Primoz
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Hamish
I like the name, some throughts in it to and unusual. With the mast rake you can play anyway easy. But for the beginning it will be okay. Perhaps you was already sailing (time difference) and I hope it was a success. By the way, I put some of your photos on "Duckworks magazine" Facebook. Score till today 88 tumbs up. This is unusual high. And now I hope the boat performs to your satisfaction.
Cheers
Bernd
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Hi Primroz
Thank you for the pictures. Nice setup and I think it worked good. A typical production set up with the parts (Aluminum casting etc). Was you satisfied with the performance?
Cheers
Bernd
Von: "primoz.kolar@... [k-designs]"
An: k-designs@...
Gesendet: 11:28 Sonntag, 10.Dezember 2017
Betreff: Re: [k-designs] Re: Leeboards
?
Hi guys, i was not really following the luff/lee-board discussion, just seen it now.?Might be interesting to share with you I had the luff boards on the Windrush 600 catamaran (LOA 6,0 m). It's an Australian cat from 1980+. The box was from cast aluminium and a alu-plate top plate screved to the hull. Attach some photos (had issues with attaching so links below) where the box is visible and the boards (i guess they were somewhere 1,0-1,2m x 0,3m). The boards were pulled in down position by a rubber band and from that point safe in case hitting an obstacle/ground. They were raised by pulling the 2nd rope from the trampoline and fixing in a cleat. Worked quite ok.? Regards,Primoz
|
Hi guys, i was not really following the luff/lee-board discussion, just seen it now.?Might be interesting to share with you I had the luff boards on the Windrush 600 catamaran (LOA 6,0 m). It's an Australian cat from 1980+. The box was from cast aluminium and a alu-plate top plate screved to the hull. Attach some photos (had issues with attaching so links below) where the box is visible and the boards (i guess they were somewhere 1,0-1,2m x 0,3m). The boards were pulled in down position by a rubber band and from that point safe in case hitting an obstacle/ground. They were raised by pulling the 2nd rope from the trampoline and fixing in a cleat. Worked quite ok.? Regards,Primoz
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Hello Andrew et all
I know that
antivortex panels work self on monohulls. It is known that the
"Paradox" from Matt Layden and some other small boats with
outside chines (Bolger, Michalk) sail good to windward. Better as
with the chine on the inside. Some owners made the experiment. Some
KD 860 owners are happy with there performance to. As an amentment,
it is advisable to place them 100 mm furter back as shown in the
drawing. The sharp corneres are paramount.
Howard, as far as
Junkrigs are from interest, special from you, it is clear that the do
not sail to windward as good as any sloop rig. The best sort of
Junkrig with good performance was the semi Junk/wing sail from my
friend. He found also a solution to need half of the usual ropes to
control the sail. At last, just some days ago Richard Woods in
Duckworks magazine mentioned a sail with the "Jester" and a
Volkeboat with his normal sloop rig. On all courses the Jester was
nowhere. "Jester" hat auch einen Volkebaot hull. No
discussion about Junk rigs here anymore
Andrew you was
precise descriping why I chose in the end for the rotating
daggerboard, mounted at the center line in a sort of pod under the
bridge deck.
I came up with more
or less the same measurements you where given regarding of the area
for the board and place.
You use one board in
the port hull, also when the board is on the lee side the decrease of
stablity is minimal, because the boat has a great beam. For smaller
catamarans as the ECO 5.5 and ECO 6 it is a different story. The luff
board is used on the windward side. In this way the board will
increase the stability of the boat. It is almost a hoek on the good
side to prevent capsicing. I use the CLARK Y wing section which has a
lift coefficient of 0,7 at only 4¡ã and has a maximum from 1,6. This
will help enourm in sailing to windward. The lee drift angle will be
almost diminished. Other point. The CLARK Y has an plane
undersurface. So the boards can be build on a flat surface without a
jig.
Back to the KD 860
and the center daggerboard.
It can be
build/mounted on existing boats and of course new ones without
intvering with the interiour.
No chance that by
grounding the board will damage the hull.
Tacking easy,
because no necesity to lift the one board and lower the other for the
new course.
Extra weight about
34 kg including board.
When the boards is
angled with 3 to 4¡ã forward almost no ventilation.
As mentioned I just
this morning finished the last drawing. I will send the drawingas as
DXF files without further comment, because the construction is easy
and logcal. The rudder jig can be use to buid the board with a
modivication of the vertical parts.
To the persons who
contacted me to receive the drawings. In the next days you will
receive them..
The KD 860 is a big
succsess. There are sailing a lot more KD 860this as I know as I hear
sometimes from here and there. If these persons in the group, contact
me also if you would like to have the addition.
The board will be in
the standard delivery by the way. All other appendages as LAR keels
and lee of luff boards are not available anymore.
At last, thank you
for any input from your side. This side is for doing and learning, to
get in the end a better boat.
And Andre, all the
best for a quick recovery of your leg.
Cheers (my bottle of
Wodka stand wayding for me)
Bernd
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Andrew:
??? I did read Pete's post, and that's exactly why I suggested
leaving both luffboards down.
??? The area of the hull above the pivot on a leeboard, and the
pivot pin itself, support the load on a leeboard.? Usually a
slotted structure at the gunnel or near it, accepts the top of the
leeboard when deployed.? Thus it is pulling outboard at the
gunnel, and pressing inboard on the area around the pivot pin when
in use.?? Reverse the tack with a leeboard down, and you reverse
the forces, but of course you also reverse the heel.
??? Bernd's luffboards are exactly the reverse situation as the
leeboard.?? The tension is on the shaft, and the compression load
at the top.? There is a big difference however when you change
tacks, as the luffboard closely follows the hull below the pivot
shaft.?? With the luff board down on the "wrong tack", the
luffboard is going to lay against the hull, so the tension loads
above will be far lighter.?? An ordinary leeboard cannot be
anywhere near the hull, while Bernds' luffboards follow it
closely...........? The result is that I have zero structural
concerns about reverse forces.??
??? My only concern is how it would tack with both down........
not the structural loads.???
??? The central folding dagger is a far better solution than the
standard dagger in my opinion because it can fold back if it
strikes something.......... But it means that a strong nacelle
type structure must be placed beneath the bridge deck.?? The fact
that the bow waves tend to pile up in the center however means
more "grip" for the length of the board.
??? In any case the central dagger lacks to my mind the
fundamental elegance and simplicity that I see throughout the KD
860 design.??? I would love to see the AV panels work, and was
very disappointed with the results some builders such as yourself
were having with them.?? If the issue is the lack of the sharp
edge Bernd mentions on his site, or insufficient panel area, that
is fairly easily remedied.? If as Bernd suggested the other day,
it's an issue of not enough hull immersed ( too low aspect ratio
to be an effective wing ), then there is no solution except boards
or keels.??
??? As I've mentioned before, I don't really anticipate building a
KD 860, but I would hope to find one within my budget someday.?
But if I were building one, I would definitely concentrate on that
sharp corner, and perhaps increase the area of the AV panel.? I'd
probably also build the luffboard support structure at the outset,
weather or not I installed the boards later.? I don't believe that
their location conflicts with the AV panels, but lacking plans, I
don't really know that.?? That structure would be my proverbial
"ace in the hole" which would allow me to easily convert later if
necessary.
??? The PDF Luffboard1.pdf shows the luffboard structure being
right where the curvature of the leading edge of the bridge deck
flattens out, if I read the drawing right....... in line with the
mast step.
??? The photo showing the launch of Catharsis KD 860 found here:?
???
Seems to show both luff boards and AV panels, the luff boards
being forward of the AV panels and having to slide past them to
swing aft and retract....... I don't quite understand this
conflict.?????
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? H.W.
On 12/07/2017 05:27 PM, andrewklees@... [k-designs]
wrote:
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?
Howard.
If you read the post from Pete, you would understand the
response from Bernd in relation to a central foil.
In relation to the lee board issue.I was under the
impression that Tradionaly the hull side was used to
suport the foil, hence the term lee board, as the foil was
only used on the lee side, but meant that what looks like
a barn door was often quite refined as it could have
asymetry and or tow in. You might want to clarify with
Bernd if he has desighned the structure of the luff boards
so as both can be left down all the time.
Andrew.
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Howard.
If you read the post from Pete, you would understand the response from Bernd in relation to a central foil.
In relation to the lee board issue.I was under the impression that Tradionaly the hull side was used to suport the foil, hence the term lee board, as the foil was only used on the lee side, but meant that what looks like a barn door was often quite refined as it could have asymetry and or tow in. You might want to clarify with Bernd if he has desighned the structure of the luff boards so as both can be left down all the time.
Andrew.
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Hamish
you wont regret the larger motor.? I have got a 3.6 hp on the Duo 480 and at times? (up wind in a strong choppy sea against the tide) I have been glad of it.
These small multis get a lot of windage on the superstructure.? In calm conditions any tiny egg beater would push the boat.
Waiting with great anticipation for a sailing report
regards Bryan
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Bernd:
??? It's unfortunate that the problems with the AV panels are
something you don't have the resources or time to resolve.? It's
one of the many very attractive features of the KD 860.?? I
apologize for creating an obviously uncomfortable situation by
bringing this up, but it looks like the result will be some
positive changes that will benefit future builders and current
owners.?? Nobody wants customers to be unhappy with their designs
or their work, at least no responsible business person.........
and that includes myself.?? I hope my comments and questions on
this forum have had positive results.
??? I'm curious as to why you are now advocating the central
rotating daggerboard rather than the two luffboards.?? The
luffboards appear to take advantage of the adjacent hull structure
utilizing it effectively and efficiently, and to be easily
retrofitted.?? What seems to be an elegant solution to me.? The
only issue I see, is a pretty minor one, and that is two sets of
control lines, and the desirability of switching luffboards on
each tack, though considering the minimal angle of heel, both
would have significant effect? as far as leeway reduction on
either tack.?? In other words, sailing "hard on the wind", one
might want both down or partially down except during the tack
itself.??
??? I would also hope that bringing it up here would alert
builders of this and other smaller cats to the importance of the
very sharp corner on the chine.?? I'd love to be reading this
forum someday and find a post where a builder pulled his KD 860
for bottom work, and eliminated the sanding radius on the chine,
and found a significant improvement as a result.?? Nothing would
please me more than to see the AV panels work successfully.
??? The KD 860 seems to be nearly the perfect boat for my
purposes, but unfortunately I don't expect to be in a position to
build, rather I will end up settling for a used boat I can afford
without breaking my cruising budget.?? Your design and
construction methods make this one of the simplest boats to
construct in this class.... or so it appears.?? But I have no
illusions about the basic construction being anything but the
beginning of the job.?? I've built too many things ;-)? The real
time and labor (and expense) is in the details.
???????????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
???
On 12/07/2017 03:24 AM, Bernd@... [k-designs] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Hi Pete
Opinions about sailing characteristics are as diverse
as their owners of the KD 860. But one thing is clear,
more work has to be done to make the panels for the boat
more effective. As I already told Andrew in the answer,
the underwater surface of the KD 860 is too small to
work effectively with the drawn ?AV plates. By the way,
the extreme leeway tentency of the ORYX has a lot to do
with the inefficient rig (sails with an aspect ratio of
1: 1.5 sail better sideways). I've developed an
antivortec plate, years back, for a multichine catamaran
(under protest). Result, 7 ¡ã better to windward with the
panels. By the way, I was not happy with the result!
Reason, shows how much work has to be done on dese
devices. I do not have the time and money to make these
experiments.?
?Long story short.
As mentioned, I drew a central rotating dagger board
for the boat. (an old idea). This is nothing new, a
few designers have been using this configuration for
years. With these construction, nothing has to be
changed on the inside of the boat. I will offer this
construction as standard. Unfortunately, I could not
load the photo of such a boat and a sketch yesterday
(my internet is very slow). So if you are interested,
please let me know.?
Can you report how you have done the window front of
your boat. I like it very much. Klenklen had made a
rendering in these direction some time ago. The
rendering is in the photo section. Is there a false
ceiling in the sleeping quarters? Did you do the engine
pod as on your drawing? If you feel like it, please
notify, possibly with photos
Many greetings
Bernd
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Oops,
did not answer the question about the "donk" yes I am sticking with the motor. It is a 5hp extra long shaft Mercury engine, got it online almost new for $600, in NZ they are $1700 new! its over kill for this yacht a little 3hp would be more than adequate and save weight, however I still have the 6.1 Merlin mono hull and not the luxury of 2 outboards! compromise, always compromise! I should point out the 5hp weights 21kg, and a 3hp about 17kg.?
Hamish?
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Rien,
thanks for the flattering comments. I have been thinking of a name for the past year, nothing of personal significance has really grabbed me. I was keen just to call it ECO 5.5, but currently I am thinking of ECO 5.5HAC. Why HAC, Hamish Allen Carr! I guess there is a bit of me in the yacht!, blood and sweat.?
I have built some mast supports with rollers and raising and lowering the mast is now a simpler proposition. I have also added some rake to the mast 2.8 degrees, I did not block the yacht level and plumb, instead I took a photo side on and used CAD to extend a known vertical line (the center board) and the mast and asked the software to tell me the angle. I hope this approach is scientific enough for a start, sailing tests will confirm or otherwise. With the rake sorted I can raise the jib and look at sheeting angles and the placement of the cam cleats and tracks for the jib sheet. The main is already sorted to satisfaction.?
Our summer holiday break from school starts in a weeks time, so weather permitting I will be fully into getting it on the water before we go away for Christmas/ New Year!
Hamish??
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Re: Eco 6 at Machans Beach
Hello Rien
You making good progress. Your work looks very good. It is so nice to work with boats with this construction system. One of the merits, easy turning. When you see what it takes to turn a monomaran ;-). Thanks for the photos. I will put them (if my internet works again proberly in a phot album, Title "Riens ECO 6" Have fun
Cheers
Bernd
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Hi Pete
Opinions about sailing characteristics are as diverse as their owners of the KD 860. But one thing is clear, more work has to be done to make the panels for the boat more effective. As I already told Andrew in the answer, the underwater surface of the KD 860 is too small to work effectively with the drawn ?AV plates. By the way, the extreme leeway tentency of the ORYX has a lot to do with the inefficient rig (sails with an aspect ratio of 1: 1.5 sail better sideways). I've developed an antivortec plate, years back, for a multichine catamaran (under protest). Result, 7 ¡ã better to windward with the panels. By the way, I was not happy with the result! Reason, shows how much work has to be done on dese devices. I do not have the time and money to make these experiments.? ?Long story short. As mentioned, I drew a central rotating dagger board for the boat. (an old idea). This is nothing new, a few designers have been using this configuration for years. With these construction, nothing has to be changed on the inside of the boat. I will offer this construction as standard. Unfortunately, I could not load the photo of such a boat and a sketch yesterday (my internet is very slow). So if you are interested, please let me know.? Can you report how you have done the window front of your boat. I like it very much. Klenklen had made a rendering in these direction some time ago. The rendering is in the photo section. Is there a false ceiling in the sleeping quarters? Did you do the engine pod as on your drawing? If you feel like it, please notify, possibly with photos
Many greetings
Bernd
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Every day I make a little progress. Then one morning it is hull turning day.
It was easy work flipping the hulls over in the sling with the help of some cheap chain blocks. No outside assistance required.
Next job is clean up of the sheer line, then make and install the now famous luff boards.
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
'It' is very beautiful, Hamish. She is as graceful as a swan. A real credit to your skill and perseverance.
She moves along with just the little donk. Is that what you are sticking with?
I like your foldable wing seats. And the colour scheme.
Do you have a name for 'it' yet?
Regards,
Rien.
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Bernd Kohler