Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Ha, ha, ha. This is the reason all racing catamarans have a cabin. Show me one ;-))?
I see your goal is long-range sailing. Then, only the original sail area is practical to handle in any sea and wind condition.?
For long range. No open bridge. A simple human aspect. When it rains, you are always on the hull without the loo.
Biplane rig. The rig is not possible without a lot of inside room loss. The masts would be standing in the berth rooms.?
To control the top of a square top is not possible. The rig, as shown, is, in my view, the most practical one for any weather situation.
Cheers
Bernd
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
"Why should a open bridge dexk be slower then a closed"
I have zero clue, haha....I was told this, and it seems you dont agree. So im okay with that. I think he said it had to do with the air flow begin better over the bridge deck. Could be Bull Crap, i dont know.?
Im already decided, im building a 860
The only question i have left is simple
What would be the different sailing characteristics between these boats.
The 860 bridge deck with bi-plane? 860 bridge deck with a square top main and jib
The 860 open with? bi- plane rig
The 860 with the square top and jib?
For long distance cruising, which rig would.you put on the 860 open??
Thanks Bill?
Choosing one or the other design is not easy.
Luckily, we have experienced people here at the forum giving advice and sharing their experiences.?
?
Only short from my side as the designer. Any design shown is generally a closed standard design.
This is one of the reasons my plans can be so cheap.
I strictly design in wood, glass, and epoxy composite systems. One of the reasons is that any amateur can build these boats without learning a new profession. It is the most cost-efficient system. It is the most environmentally friendly system
if you are thinking in this direction, too. Even the boat-building industry is looking at wood again and having conferences about the issue.
On the sideline. A-symmetrical hulls have less internal space. Today's cruiser catamarans remind me of houseboats with ornamental sails. But they need? U-cross sections. From a technical point of view, cruising catamaran designs
go in an illogical direction. The newest thing is catamarans with solar and, or hydrogen power systems for sailing boats, which cost as much as the boat itself.? When I have a good sailing boat,
I do not need that. In our last sailing season with our Pelican, we used 6 l of petrol and sailed 4200 miles.?
?
I always try to find a solution between a seaworthy, easy-to-build, affordable design. I agree, full of Dick Newicks? Keep it Stupid and Simple statement.
My boats are light and have good load capacity.?
The rigs can, in many cases, not be changed. The jib rig is okay for small boats or motor sailors. Parallel or sloop rigs: The bulkheads are fixed design points.
For example, To change from a sloop rig to a parallel rig. The masts of a freestanding rig are through hull constructions with bearings at the keel and deck (at least 1: 10).
They would intervene with the accommodation in the hulls. Plus, an extra bulkhead is usually necessary
By the way, why should an open bridge catamaran be slower than a bridge deck catamaran??
Cheers
Bernd
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?
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Choosing one or the other design is not easy.
Luckily, we have experienced people here at the forum giving advice and sharing their experiences.?
?
Only short from my side as the designer. Any design shown is generally a closed standard design.
This is one of the reasons my plans can be so cheap.
I strictly design in wood, glass, and epoxy composite systems. One of the reasons is that any amateur can build these boats without learning a new profession. It is the most cost-efficient system. It is the most environmentally friendly system
if you are thinking in this direction, too. Even the boat-building industry is looking at wood again and having conferences about the issue.
On the sideline. A-symmetrical hulls have less internal space. Today's cruiser catamarans remind me of houseboats with ornamental sails. But they need? U-cross sections. From a technical point of view, cruising catamaran designs
go in an illogical direction. The newest thing is catamarans with solar and, or hydrogen power systems for sailing boats, which cost as much as the boat itself.? When I have a good sailing boat,
I do not need that. In our last sailing season with our Pelican, we used 6 l of petrol and sailed 4200 miles.?
?
I always try to find a solution between a seaworthy, easy-to-build, affordable design. I agree, full of Dick Newicks? Keep it Stupid and Simple statement.
My boats are light and have good load capacity.?
The rigs can, in many cases, not be changed. The jib rig is okay for small boats or motor sailors. Parallel or sloop rigs: The bulkheads are fixed design points.
For example, To change from a sloop rig to a parallel rig. The masts of a freestanding rig are through hull constructions with bearings at the keel and deck (at least 1: 10).
They would intervene with the accommodation in the hulls. Plus, an extra bulkhead is usually necessary
By the way, why should an open bridge catamaran be slower than a bridge deck catamaran??
Cheers
Bernd
?
?
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
dear Pete, this is a good question! Bernd is a creative designer, he has invented or rediscovered new rig types that have their advantages. For instance, the dual rig can have shorter, rotating, free standing masts, supported in each hull. Of course, they also have their disadvantages (like the dual rig, performing less on a 90 degrees wind angle, normally the fastest course, because of overlap of the 2 sails). Likewise, asymmetrical hulls give more inner space, but because the water flow is not symmetrical, this shape could give unwanted steering effects, and?more water resistance. As we are not going to build several versions of our desired boats to be able to compare them, how can we wage the advantages against the disadvantages? Bernd, could you please answer that?
By the way, I am sailing a Farrier F82 trimaran, 8m20 x 6m, and I only sail the North Sea at nice weather conditions. Unlike the Baltic, the North Sea can be rough!
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Peet,? The different sailplans each has its followers, You must decide what will work for you. I believe they all perform well with the correct positioning . Some lower sailplans work well not to have a tippy boat, The duo sailplans work well, easy to reef, and the two sails create some sort of turbo effect, in that one sail make the other far more effective, once you undestand how to sail with them, so I think it is great. Cheers Philip Malan
On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 22:32:01 SAST, Bill Mansfield <billman3968@...> wrote:
Im not even close to an expert!?
Im building the open deck version?
I'm not going to re-invent the wheel On my sail/ mast selection.? Single mast? Rotating? Square top main
Boat will be built without allot of bells and whistles (weight)?
?Air head toilet Deck mounted manual pump shower? Deck mounted camp stove system (Able to use kero)? Small interior LED lights? I do allot of fishing, so the deck will have built in coolers, live well, bait station.?
Im going to exclude the galley area below, and use that area for a navigation area.?
I will design a boom tent to cover the deck at anchor. And be able to put a nice size deck tent up top
I will use some lith ion batterys? With a nice solar system?
I will have a water maker system?
9.9 hp on a adj. bracket?
Thats all i need. Bahamas trips 3-months a year out of Miami FL
I wont go cheap on the ply epoxy and glass. The whole structure will be built top notch.?
Hi,
I have personally bought multiple study plans(kd 860, eco 520, eco 6.5(few other designs from trimarans also, composite ones are way too much work ditched them already.)) already and having hard time on deciding which option to go for. I know im not going to do mega build which I consider to be 7-8meters and upwards.
Things that mostly consider me are the different mast and sail designs and their properties which i am not so familiar with.?
Layout design I am fan of eco 6. While loving the sail design from Eco 520, with dual furling ones. Every sail setup has its sides. But what I am wondering is that how much am I sacrificing on performance if I go with dual furling sail design.?
I have some prior experience with kiteboarding and windsurfing so kind of know basics with wind.
I bet here is someone way more smart than what I am when it comes to sail designs and their performances. What I would be interested is to rank them to give some scale of degree in following categories:
- Ease of use
- Costs
- Performance upwind
- Performance speed
Type of rigs: sloop, gunter, jigsaw duo?, dual furling?
Ultimate goal of the build is to sail coastally from Finland to Mediterranean one summer that is to come(1-4ppl). Not in rush but taking my time stopping to cities and kiteboarding spots.
?
Best regards,
Pete
?
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Moderated
Re: Carbon tupes for free standing masts
Berndt? It looks great, I think it will be fast. Cheers Philip Malan
On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 22:38:29 SAST, Bernd Kohler <ikarus342000@...> wrote:
I just finished a special version of the DUO 480 JIGSAW for Harald. You know he built (and some others too) a beautiful Cataproa. See video clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGChrDX3tg
?
Parallel rig or sloop was the critical point. In the end, it will be the parallel* rig. Because I found at last a manufacturer.?
?
Brian in New Zealand built the first DUO 480 Jigsaw with the parallel* rig see video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiTbOKIuxlY&t=2s
Because carbon masts are a lot cheaper there.
Now, this company in the Netherlands makes just the good carbon tubes with an acceptable price of Euro 553.32).
I will place the company address in the file folder of our forum.??
?
* many use biplane rig for a parallel rig. But does the rig have anything to do with a biplane?
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Being the builder and owner for two years of an Eco 6 catamaran I can share some thoughts. In addition to the Eco 6 I have had a life of sailing, over 50 years as Skipper, and have sailed coastal, and many offshore trips in a variety of yachts. Sloop rig, cutter rig, junk rig, monohull, trimaran, and catamaran.
?
I built the Eco 6 as a fun boatbuilding project. I chose the design because I knew it would be an affordable, manageable build, that I could complete in a reasonable time frame. I enjoyed the whole build process, and then once completed I had some coastal cruising goals which included a 100 nm mile exposed coastal sail to an area of New Zealand known as the Bay of Islands. My wife and myself spent a total of about 8 weeks cruising on the Eco 6 over that 2 year period. I sold the Eco 6 earlier this year because although we greatly enjoyed our little catamaran, we ultimately wanted to get back into a boat with more accommodation, and better heavy weather capability.
?
Although there have been many notable extended cruises undertaken in small boats, I think that what you are proposing, Finland to the Mediterranean, would require a larger vessel than both the 520, and the Eco 6., but certainly the Eco 6 would be the smallest you would want in terms of weather capability, and carrying capacity. After my Eco 6 experiences, I would be aiming to the larger KD860, or a similar size. But it is going to take you at least twice as long to build as the Eco 6, and probably cost two to three times as much.
?
Here is a photo of my Eco 6 in cruising mode.
?
?
As for the rig, all types have advantages and disadvantages, and some are better upwind rigs, and some are better downwind rigs. But provided any rig is well set up and has good sails, the relative differences in performance over the various points of sail, and in a cruising situation, is not going to be that great. In the end you will need to go with the rig that is designed for the boat you choose. I have sailed on catamarans with bi-plane rigs, but my own preference now for an easily handled small multihull rig, is for a fully batten mainsail, perhaps square top, a self tacking non overlapping jib, and a furling asymmetric downwind/reaching sail set up on a bow sprit. This provides a robust, easily handled, and efficient rig which covers off all points of sail.??
?
David
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Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
That sounds good Bill!
?
I am also thinking of going light solar ~400w, running small fridge (15l max). Internal basic electronics and most likely just going to buy larger off grid power supply unit with all built in that i might rebuild into the boat structures and re wire a bit for more functionality.?
I also think that the deck tent is kind of a must to extend living area and kinda makes sense what you are saying about having the kitchen outside. I will probably run single induction inside just for the rainy days. (had one in van with 200w of solar in finland and it was enoughg to cook once a day.) Keeping it simple is very smart if going for long term sustained sea vessel as it makes every fixing operation easier. Water maker also a must i think. Not sure which one to go for though. What size boat are you thinking of building ? I am currently working on one 3.5m design from duckworks that is my first build. That shall be vessel for coming summer but after planning to build bit bigger one as all the technique is familiar and have concept of how to best do things.
?
400w of solar on board will get you actually far if you pay attention to your choices of equipment to go with power efficient ones.
Was also thinking that bernd has probably chosen best option for each rig there so maybe my question is even irrelevant in first place. But lets see if we can spark here interesting thread of conversation.
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Just to be clear, the advice i.was given on the open deck not sailing as well? Was for **all** cats not the 860 design
Open deck vs bridge deck? He said the hard top.sloop rig is better.
Im debating both builds vs each other
Thxs?
On Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:33?PM Bill Mansfield via <billman3968= [email protected]> wrote: One last question, whats the sailing performance differances? Open deck and the bridge deck version.?
I was told the open deck dosent sail as well as a bridge deck?
Could be wrong advice ????
Hi Bill
I have you send an email about how you can order.
Sorry for the inconvenience at the moment.
Try it is but cold.
Have a nice weekend too
Bernd
|
Moderated
Carbon tupes for free standing masts
I just finished a special version of the DUO 480 JIGSAW for Harald. You know he built (and some others too) a beautiful Cataproa. See video clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGChrDX3tg
?
Parallel rig or sloop was the critical point. In the end, it will be the parallel* rig. Because I found at last a manufacturer.?
?
Brian in New Zealand built the first DUO 480 Jigsaw with the parallel* rig see video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiTbOKIuxlY&t=2s
Because carbon masts are a lot cheaper there.
Now, this company in the Netherlands makes just the good carbon tubes with an acceptable price of Euro 553.32).
I will place the company address in the file folder of our forum.??
?
* many use biplane rig for a parallel rig. But does the rig have anything to do with a biplane?
|
One last question, whats the sailing performance differances? Open deck and the bridge deck version.?
I was told the open deck dosent sail as well as a bridge deck?
Could be wrong advice ????
Hi Bill
I have you send an email about how you can order.
Sorry for the inconvenience at the moment.
Try it is but cold.
Have a nice weekend too
Bernd
|
Moderated
Re: Choosing between designs and rig options
Im not even close to an expert!?
Im building the open deck version?
I'm not going to re-invent the wheel On my sail/ mast selection.? Single mast? Rotating? Square top main
Boat will be built without allot of bells and whistles (weight)?
?Air head toilet Deck mounted manual pump shower? Deck mounted camp stove system (Able to use kero)? Small interior LED lights? I do allot of fishing, so the deck will have built in coolers, live well, bait station.?
Im going to exclude the galley area below, and use that area for a navigation area.?
I will design a boom tent to cover the deck at anchor. And be able to put a nice size deck tent up top
I will use some lith ion batterys? With a nice solar system?
I will have a water maker system?
9.9 hp on a adj. bracket?
Thats all i need. Bahamas trips 3-months a year out of Miami FL
I wont go cheap on the ply epoxy and glass. The whole structure will be built top notch.?
Hi,
I have personally bought multiple study plans(kd 860, eco 520, eco 6.5(few other designs from trimarans also, composite ones are way too much work ditched them already.)) already and having hard time on deciding which option to go for. I know im not going to do mega build which I consider to be 7-8meters and upwards.
Things that mostly consider me are the different mast and sail designs and their properties which i am not so familiar with.?
Layout design I am fan of eco 6. While loving the sail design from Eco 520, with dual furling ones. Every sail setup has its sides. But what I am wondering is that how much am I sacrificing on performance if I go with dual furling sail design.?
I have some prior experience with kiteboarding and windsurfing so kind of know basics with wind.
I bet here is someone way more smart than what I am when it comes to sail designs and their performances. What I would be interested is to rank them to give some scale of degree in following categories:
- Ease of use
- Costs
- Performance upwind
- Performance speed
Type of rigs: sloop, gunter, jigsaw duo?, dual furling?
Ultimate goal of the build is to sail coastally from Finland to Mediterranean one summer that is to come(1-4ppl). Not in rush but taking my time stopping to cities and kiteboarding spots.
?
Best regards,
Pete
?
|
Moderated
Choosing between designs and rig options
Hi,
I have personally bought multiple study plans(kd 860, eco 520, eco 6.5(few other designs from trimarans also, composite ones are way too much work ditched them already.)) already and having hard time on deciding which option to go for. I know im not going to do mega build which I consider to be 7-8meters and upwards.
Things that mostly consider me are the different mast and sail designs and their properties which i am not so familiar with.?
Layout design I am fan of eco 6. While loving the sail design from Eco 520, with dual furling ones. Every sail setup has its sides. But what I am wondering is that how much am I sacrificing on performance if I go with dual furling sail design.?
I have some prior experience with kiteboarding and windsurfing so kind of know basics with wind.
I bet here is someone way more smart than what I am when it comes to sail designs and their performances. What I would be interested is to rank them to give some scale of degree in following categories:
- Ease of use
- Costs
- Performance upwind
- Performance speed
Type of rigs: sloop, gunter, jigsaw duo?, dual furling?
Ultimate goal of the build is to sail coastally from Finland to Mediterranean one summer that is to come(1-4ppl). Not in rush but taking my time stopping to cities and kiteboarding spots.
?
Best regards,
Pete
?
|
Hi Bill
I have you send an email about how you can order.
Sorry for the inconvenience at the moment.
Try it is but cold.
Have a nice weekend too
Bernd
|
I'm building the ECO 6 now and i will build the KD860 after i finish building and gaining experience with the ECO6 build. Hope to see photos of your build.
Bernd?
Thxs for the reply. I am indeed on the fourm.?
Do the plans include the open version with the singke mast version??
Would you please link the purchase? Site for those plans.?
I will cut the panels myself then.?
Hava a grrat weekend?
Stay dry &? warm !?
On Fri, Dec 15, 2023, 5:35?PM Bernd Kohler < bernd@...> wrote:
Hi Bill
I am first a designer. My plans for the KD 860 series are? DXF drawings, which can be used for CNC? cutting. But it is proven with these simple bulkheads that cutting them out by yourself is convenient. Most builders lofted and cut out the bulkheads in one day! It is not worth spending your money for it.
There is no measurable difference in that cabin or open version. The open beam version is theoretical? only 100 lb (ca. 45 kg) lighter.?
You have it good living in Miami. Here in the South of France it is now (too) cold for me. You are in the forum I could see. I think,? you have seen by now that you have a lot of information on how to build a KD 860. But I'm also always willing to advise you when you have a question.
Best regards
Bernd Kohler?
Le vendredi 15 d¨¦cembre 2023 ¨¤ 15:42:15 UTC+1, Bill Mansfield < billman3968@...> a ¨¦crit :
Bernard
I would like to build a 860 open, with the single sail plan.? ?
Im in the US. Can we have someone here cut the kit? I would pickup from?? CLC in annp. Md?
How much cheaper would it be, then building the standard 860 if i order the kit from one of your venders??
Please let me know the main differances in sailing performance conpaired to the standard 860.
Im going to use the boat for wxtended Bahamas crusing, as live in the miami Area?
Thxs Bill Mansfield?
|
Bernd?
Thxs for the reply. I am indeed on the fourm.?
Do the plans include the open version with the singke mast version??
Would you please link the purchase? Site for those plans.?
I will cut the panels myself then.?
Hava a grrat weekend?
Stay dry &? warm !?
On Fri, Dec 15, 2023, 5:35?PM Bernd Kohler < bernd@...> wrote:
Hi Bill
I am first a designer. My plans for the KD 860 series are? DXF drawings, which can be used for CNC? cutting. But it is proven with these simple bulkheads that cutting them out by yourself is convenient. Most builders lofted and cut out the bulkheads in one day! It is not worth spending your money for it.
There is no measurable difference in that cabin or open version. The open beam version is theoretical? only 100 lb (ca. 45 kg) lighter.?
You have it good living in Miami. Here in the South of France it is now (too) cold for me. You are in the forum I could see. I think,? you have seen by now that you have a lot of information on how to build a KD 860. But I'm also always willing to advise you when you have a question.
Best regards
Bernd Kohler?
Le vendredi 15 d¨¦cembre 2023 ¨¤ 15:42:15 UTC+1, Bill Mansfield < billman3968@...> a ¨¦crit :
Bernard
I would like to build a 860 open, with the single sail plan.? ?
Im in the US. Can we have someone here cut the kit? I would pickup from?? CLC in annp. Md?
How much cheaper would it be, then building the standard 860 if i order the kit from one of your venders??
Please let me know the main differances in sailing performance conpaired to the standard 860.
Im going to use the boat for wxtended Bahamas crusing, as live in the miami Area?
Thxs Bill Mansfield?
|
Hi Bill
I am first a designer. My plans for the KD 860 series are? DXF drawings, which can be used for CNC? cutting. But it is proven with these simple bulkheads that cutting them out by yourself is convenient. Most builders lofted and cut out the bulkheads in one day! It is not worth spending your money for it.
There is no measurable difference in that cabin or open version. The open beam version is theoretical? only 100 lb (ca. 45 kg) lighter.?
You have it good living in Miami. Here in the South of France it is now (too) cold for me. You are in the forum I could see. I think,? you have seen by now that you have a lot of information on how to build a KD 860. But I'm also always willing to advise you when you have a question.
Best regards
Bernd Kohler?
Le vendredi 15 d¨¦cembre 2023 ¨¤ 15:42:15 UTC+1, Bill Mansfield <billman3968@...> a ¨¦crit :
Bernard
I would like to build a 860 open, with the single sail plan.? ?
Im in the US. Can we have someone here cut the kit? I would pickup from?? CLC in annp. Md?
How much cheaper would it be, then building the standard 860 if i order the kit from one of your venders??
Please let me know the main differances in sailing performance conpaired to the standard 860.
Im going to use the boat for wxtended Bahamas crusing, as live in the miami Area?
Thxs Bill Mansfield?
|
Bernard
I would like to build a 860 open, with the single sail plan.? ?
Im in the US. Can we have someone here cut the kit? I would pickup from?? CLC in annp. Md?
How much cheaper would it be, then building the standard 860 if i order the kit from one of your venders??
Please let me know the main differances in sailing performance conpaired to the standard 860.
Im going to use the boat for wxtended Bahamas crusing, as live in the miami Area?
Thxs Bill Mansfield?
|
Outstanding! A build and pictorial that does more than give justice to the elegance and economy of Bernd¡¯s design, it inspires!
Thank you for posting.
Matt in Ohio
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Bernd Kohler
Philip Malan
Bernd Kohler