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AMEN, SAM !! Listening is the key. If you can't play what you hear, you're in hot water as far as being a good jazz player is concerned. That goes for any instrument. Joe Pass used to say, "being able to play a tuner in all keys is essential. You should recognize a #9 chord when you hear it as well as a Maj9#11 chord. You can't get this from a book. While we're at it, books that supposedly teach improvisation are BS. They're fine for practicing reading skills, but won't teach you a damn thing about putting good ideas together while soloing. Flip

I'll let you know about the soloing in a minor key concept?.....Elroy Jones is a good friend of minds...He taught Stanley Jorday...........He has alot knowledge in this..Stay Tune for the update

oracleelf@... wrote:

Someone recently mentioned Clay's thread on Martino's diminished chord concept, which btw I found immensely helpful. I have read somewhere in the past that when soloing Martino thinks of everything in terms of minor scales, etc. Does anybody know exactly what that concept entails? Is it simply another form of substitions? Just wondering... eme ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

Gmaj -> E Dorian Ami7 -> A Dorian D7+9 -> D# Dorian Ami7b5 -> C Dorian Good luck, Steve Gallagher

Regarding Pat's "minor conversion" approach: a. The main reference is NOT to intentionally redirect one's appraoch to soloing (as Pat himself has pointed out); rather, it is to SIMPLIFY what is already understood relative to any major scale tonality. b. Minor scale conversion is not about scales as such. It is about creating and utilizing conceptual "line-forms" (drawn from a variety of scale sources as well as the available arpeggios, triads, intervals, pentatonics & chromaticism). The reference point merely becomes - for Martino - the minor 7th chord voicings and their inversions along the fretboard, which connect these original line-forms to their parental scale forms. c. The idea that a specific mode is being thought about realitive to Pat's improvising is only part truth; it would be more accurate to say that Pat has worked out several lengthy line-forms (derived in and around the minor 7 voicing shapes) which may be realigned (or modified) at will according to the key of the moment. Pat has internalized these lines and so can phrase them, shape their length, and embellish them to the extent that it appears as "spontaneous combustion" -in terms of improvisation. d. In order to "get inside" this kind of line-form soloing one must take the time to think and hear in terms of music -not scales. The melodic continuity eminating from Pat's solos are the direct result of "hearing" these lines, not looking for which scale fits over what. The journey is from the whole to the part (for analysis) and from the part to the whole (for self-expression). Yes, one may implement the "tools" prior to the forming of the improvised line, but once understood these tools must be put aside in order to occupy the house. There is more to be said here, but suffice to say that Pat Martino's approach to improvising defies a specific "scale" catagory. I have worked out and analyzed Pat's solos now for some 15 years. The melodic continuity is part programed response (to and from the previously learned line-forms) and part adaptation to the immediate response of "being" in the moment. Perhaps Clay Moore can "flesh out" this subject also. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Steve: The brief analysis you offer is, in my opinion, somewhat incomplete or more to the point, inaccurate if you will - nothing intended "ad hominum". Let me try to explain. As I'm certain you know, Gmaj equals E aeolian (natural minor with b6), not E dorian (with a nat. 6th) - if, of course, one is referencing these to a major key area. Each of the other twochord examples (Ami7 and Ami7b5) -if viewed from this perspective- would be correct in relation to dorian "conversion". The difficulty is that Pat does not offer such an explanation (to my knowledge) refarding dorian minor conversions. That is something the method book transcribers have labeled him with; transcription analysis is interpretative as much as historical analysis. I had the honor and pleasure of playing ("jamming" was more like it) with Pat and Les Wise in L.A. before the time of his accident (this was when the "linear expressions" book was just out)and I can tell you from that brief experience that Pat never seemingly defined his soloing in terms which would limit one to a specific minor scale or mode. In fact, he related the concept of line-form improvisation as being a series of melodic phrases, connected (and repeatable) by the various positions of chord voicings (in this case, minor 7th types)which along themselves horizontally along the fretboard. This was the reference point for creating and utilizing long, flowing line-forms; each area of the fretboard may be used to connect a melodic idea to the next. However, the actual "substance" of these lines- I noticed- were a combination of melodic, harmonic and rhytmic elements, which, when combined, served to create these non-stop phrases which marveled all of us. The technical aspect aside, this minor conversion renown of Pat's is acombination of minor scales (dorian, aeolian, melodic & harmonic minor) plus arpeggios, triads, intervals, pentatonic/blues and chromaticism. It is too narrow an analysis to suggest that only a single approach will adequately convey the boundless elements intrinsic in a Pat Martino solo. I know, I've been working on them and trabscribing them for sometime now. This is not to say that the minor scale conversion concept is wrong; it is only the beginning of the story. The melodic continuity which Pat displays is fundamentally grounded in years of internalizing pre-arranged line-forms which will work and which can be modified by him at will to suit any musical occassion. There is far more here than meets the senses. It is not merely enough to suggest one scale - It is far better to suggest utilizing the entire pallette of musical "tools" and combining these into a unique, and melodically constant reference whereby the minor chord voicings are used to "target" the areas of activity. Once again, I find nothing "negetive" in your remarks Steve. I felt the need to clarify on what had been stated. Pat and his playing is always a pleasurable topic. Thanks. ____________________________________________ On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:20:07 -0700 "Steve Gallagher" <steveg@...> writes: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sincerely, Don Price http://www.alljazzguitar.com http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/alljazzguitar http://www.egroups.com/list/alljazzguitar ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

It really kills me the way some of you people are looking for the magic secret something that suddenly turns you into a great jazz soloist. I've got news for you....IT DON"T EXIST. Years ago Martino was talking about a star system he used. Now he's talking about thinking dimished chords when he solos. It was BS then and it still is. Pat Martino is a great guitar player blessed with a wonderful ear, supurb technique and the talent to put them together. There are many talented players out there doing the same thing. It's that simple. Flip .

VxFx gave you some pretty good advice. You've only been playing two years and you have miles to go. Take the guitar in the bathroom with you. When I was younger, that's the only place I could concentrate. Believe me a bunch of fine guitarists learned to put changes together while taking a dump. Don't practice when you're feeling frustrated, but try to keep your excitement level up. I used to do this by listening to great jazz guitarists. Listening is a very important part of the learning process. An excellent ear is crucial for a good jazz guitarist. Stay with it and good luck!

Hi guys. I'm Vincent from Malaysia. I'm currently looking for a Epiphone Sheraton / 335 Dot series model guitar or some others brand that have similar shape and sound. My budget is around $500 - $600 USD. Please contact me by email vinong@... thanks.

Not true all the time. Playing solo guitar chord melody style allows for those beautiful full six and seven string chords. Not always constant, but in the right passages spaced with notes and smaller chords sound great. Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow were known to use a lot of six string chords usually wrapping their thumb around the bottom two strings. I think there was an article a while back in JJG about old rhythm players not playing in freddie green 3 note style. Marty Gross and Barry Galbraith come to mind of 4 note rhythm players. But as far as comping goes less is usually more (3rds and 7ths) give the soloist plenty room to breath. Bill

Most definitely, Bill. I believe we were talking about playing in a big band environment, with the assumption that the guitar was acting solely as an accompaniment instrument. Chord melody work using only short chords would certainly be a bit too sparse, eh? ;-) --brent Brent D. Stuntzner Construction 7931 SW 40th Ave., #D Portland, OR 97219-3598 Stuntzner@... http://www.Stuntzner.Brent.org _______________ Life without industry is guilt, industry without art is brutality. John Ruskin (1819 – 1900), Lectures on Art, III, The Relation of Art to Morals,[1870]

Believe me, There's nothing I enjoy more than helping young players. I would hate to do anything to discourage them. I was very fortunate back in the fifties to have very fine musicians willing to take time with me when I had so many questions and I'm more than happy to do the same. I guess what I'm getting at is, why make it more difficult than it is (and God knows it's plenty difficult already). I believe it's important to set a realistic goal for beginners and then try to show them the least difficult way to get there. I hang with a lot of really good guitar players who love to share ideas. We all agree on one thing. Sometimes we intellectualize to much when simple explanations serve as well. Of course listening to other players, and not just guitar players, is important. Knowing how to listen and what to listen for is at least as important. I'm seeing a lot of caring musicians out there on the net. I love it! Flip

I don't think it's BS; rather, it's a subjective view of self-expression. That is, after all, what the beginner needs to know -up front. Yes, they need to know that there's no magic bullet. However, the real problem isn't with the players who do these instructional videos, books, etc. Conversely, the problem is a mis-application of availble information. A great Source for inspiration (like Pat is many of us) is not to blame; Players may not always be able to inform the piblic of what it is exactly they are doing in order to please so many listeners. So the "schooled" types come in and want to get these players to "share" their knowledge and experience -which, in and of itself, is a noble gesture. What usually takes shape however -and has with several of the "greats"- is that someone else assumes the role of getting that talent to place everything he or she knows intutively into an externalized "systematic approach method" or some such other incapsulating and restrictive form in order to "proove" that others too may play as they do. Of course, there is absolutely nothing bad about honest learning from others work. We all "cop licks" from other players whom we admire. You point is well taken that nothing can substitute for hard work, active playing experience, and a good "ear" for tunes. The only thing you fail to mention is exactly HOW may we help one another in this learning process -irrespective of our experience level. As a teacher, I must recognize that the learning curve is not a constant; many learn best visually, others by ear, while for others the best thing is "hands on" first, explanations second. They all must combine to create the total musical experience. On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:51:55 EDT JHoopes930@... writes: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sincerely, Don Price http://www.alljazzguitar.com http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/alljazzguitar http://www.egroups.com/list/alljazzguitar ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Brent, your right listening is the key...I've been playing guitar for sometime and I have toured with some of best Jazz Katz living.....I grew up in Spfld, MA. I've played with Fat Man, Sheldon Lasenter, Marion Brown, Elroy Jones, Archie Sheppe, Stanley Jordan, Mark Whitfield, Kevin Eubanks, Clyde Criner, Carl Locket, Calvin Keys, Jusif Lateef, Avery Sharpe, Tony McAlpine and the list go on and on...What I've found out from some of these masters....Every body is trying to sound like everybody, you have to sound like you, how many ways can you play a scale, who say's that the scale your playing is wrong, who saids that you have to play the song just like the record. Just because there are books being published, what makes the instructor right or the record? The name of the game is to learn and keep learning and learning and take from your life experiences. Learn how to punctuate a musical phrase, just like writing a story on a piece of paper or holding an intelligent conversation with a friend or acquantance. You know, commas, period, exclamation, questions..Learn to play songs at slow speed if you can't play it fast because everybody is doing it..Learn different time signatures not from just a book.. But from different culturals, latin, ragga, blue, funk, jazz, classical...don't be afraid to talk to these player's that you look up to...don't talk about technique, they couldn't explain it to you even if they wanted too, talk about life...hangaround the doers not the one's that don't...Music is a training that will take a life time to master if you continue on being a student. It helps develop your left side and right side of thinking...and if you not sure what that is and you start to get a headache...then your making progress..It hard to teach someone who doesn't want to understand just want to learn the lick, you have learn where the lick came from...that can be a spiritual vibe that happen for that momemt...How can you document that unless it been recorded and if so can you do it again............If you can. Not all will take the challenge, I have and it has paid off for me...I've work for many years not making a dime but making a name for myself.. ...I've played with some the best katz around and learning from doing not from talking...Once you understand how to make everything happen then you just kick back and play your ass off....Play from the heart not from substance you know what I mean.. Note: The secret is, your already there...Just need to understand who you are! Flex

Speaking of listening....there's a new Jerry Coker book on the shelves called "Hearin the Changes". I have a copy myself and it looks to be a useful tool in learning to discern chord changes by ear. Jerry discusses particular progressions (e.g. IIm7-# IIdim7-IIIm7) and gives a list of tunes in which the target progression can be found. I'm currently working on compiling some of the tunes in the first chapter and am debating about getting Aebersold tapes to go along with my study of the tunes in question. --brent Brent D. Stuntzner Construction 7931 SW 40th Ave., #D Portland, OR 97219-3598 Stuntzner@... http://www.Stuntzner.Brent.org _______________ Life without industry is guilt, industry without art is brutality. John Ruskin (1819 – 1900), Lectures on Art, III, The Relation of Art to Morals,[1870]

In a message dated 9/7/1999 7:02:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, clay@... writes: << " I'd say he was at least "very competent" or even "impressive." >> I'd second that. The blues he plays on the Jazz guitar program is just wonderful. Advanced concept. The guys a great player. Ken

Jim Hall & Dave Holland are doing a duo performance at the Iridium in NY from Sept. 14 - 19. I figured out it would cost me $150 to go to NY from Philadelphia to see the show. Anyone know if this is a one time thing or are they doing a mini-tour? This guitar/bass duo matchup is too good to pass up. Hmm, if I go by myself it'll only cost me $75...... Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

I love buying guitar books. I think I own almost every book on jazz rhythm guitar. Doing this allowed me to buy a book in 1992 which sat in a box until last October. I took all the rhythm books out one weekend and started each one. Then I realized it was the book for me. I recommend it for people who want to learn jazz rhythm guitar. It is: Jazz Rhythm Guitar, by Roger Edison. My copy was published by Alfred and I think it is hard to find right now. I did every exercise and converted every exercise to all the other keys and practiced using the cycle of fifths. It will help you finally remember which chords to play for iim, V7, vim, etc. A major way to hear altered chords is to play them. The last exercise in this book is the tritone substitution. Now that is a sound I want in my hands and in my ears. I have a bass instruction book with a CD which has a piano player playing all types of jazz changes and progressions so the student can get the sound in his/her ears. Once I learned the generic blues progression and could play bass blues progessions over and over, I could finally hear how many complex sounding jazz songs are just blues progressions with the soloists doing altering and substituting. Now I'm working on rhythm guitar blues progressions. (Now it only Mitch Seidman will publish his columns.) I don't believe you can hear it until you play it. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Hello members, Maybe a few of you can give me a hand at reviewing a six page study on Rhythm Chords. The study is scheduled for publication in Guitar Masters a week from tomorrow. Last week we published a 10 study on Triads and a 10 page Study on Octaves. Both have been received very well. This material however, is a little more challenging for the novice or casual player. If you are unfamiliar with Guitar Masters drop on by, you may Find it interesting. I enjoy reading your posted comments, some are very Interesting and accurate. You can access the new material for review at: http://www.guitar-masters.com/Review/Review.html/ Perry W. Terhune Pterhune@... Guitar Masters http://www.guitar-masters.com/