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OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you must
play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier strat ??

However, if you are playing a $1000+ istrument you're contradicting
yourself...

-Brian

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

I think I'm pretty much on the other end of the spectrum from
gearheads, but I see this differently.

I agree that your touch is the most important thing. But, being a
great electric guitar player means that you're playing an

instrument

which begins with body and ends with the dispersion of sound to

your

audience. Every link in that chain is important. Sure, some may

make

more difference than others, but they all count. Playing great is

the

sum of a seemingly endless series of details. And, in the end,

you'll

have to pay attention to every one.

The fact is that some setups sound better than others and getting
great sound is important. I wouldn't wait until some arbitrary

time

in the future to think about it. The sound of the instrument will
change the way you play. It's a feedback loop, not a one way

system.

Having said that, I think it's important to be focused in the

effort

to improve your sound. I don't think it's enough to say, will a

new

pickup sound better? I think it would be better to be able to
identify what characteristics you're looking for and then figure

out

what you need to do to get them.

You'll hear all kinds of stories. Some guys (me included) have
changed pickups to advantage. Other guys talk about preamps making
all the difference. For others is pedals. For others it's
amplification. For others it's amp placement for proper

dispersion.

And, in the cracks you'll find guys talking about pots,

capacitors,

cables, tube types etc.

All of those things can change the sound -- and there are so many
you'd be hard pressed to try every combination. So, I like a

problem

solving approach. What is it you want to sound like? What do you

need

to do to get it?

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "hueyhoolihan"
<hueyhoolihan@y...> wrote:

different pickup manufacturing methods and designs sound

different.

the same design and manufacturer's pickup will sound different

on

the

same guitar too if mounted in a different orientation relative

to

the

top, nut and bridge.

in general, i believe buying equipment to enhance ones sound is
counterproductive. it tends to lose the focus on ones personal
improvement that is so necessary to reaching goals. i liken it to
golfers who are members in good standing to the 'driver of the

month'

club, who will insist that the lastest $500 toy is finally the

answer

to their problem. yes, it may help for a while, but it is only

for a

while, because the real problem lies elsewhere. eventually they

manage

to groove their poor swing skills on the new club, and are back

where

they started.

i think your instincts are correct regarding "the sound is in

your

fingers, and nothing else matters" statement, but it is perhaps a
little too extreme to agree with completely.

regards,
huey

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "bebmen" <bebmen@y...> wrote:

Does a good pickup really change the sound? I mean, I have

always

thought that the sound is in your fingers, and nothing else

matters.

Last year I bought chinesse Epi Dot with serial Epiphone pups,

and to

my vast surprise they sound good. Will any Gibson 57 or

Seymour

make

me sound better?

On Oct 1, 2005, at 12:45 PM, brianmayeux wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you must
play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier strat ??

I think you should reread what Rick said. He said the exact opposite of what you claim he said. He said that *every* link in the chain, including (but not limited to) pickups, matters.

Jeff

First of all, I want to apologize if I sounded argumentative. That
wasn't my intention.

To answer your question, I play a Gibson L5-S (paf reissue in neck
position) with and ME-50 pedal board. I use a little stereo chorus
and typically play thru two amps at once with the ME-50 generating
the stereo. The amps are a Roland JC-55 and a Yamaha JX-40. These are
pretty cheap amps and neither one sounds that great alone, but,
together, the boominess of the JX-40 compensates for the tinniness of
the JC-55 and I like the result. Before that, I played the L5-S into
a Mesa Boogie Mark III.

Even with all that, I can pretty much get my clean sound out of any
reasonable amp. But I also use some distortion based sounds at times
which are more gear sensitive.

I also play a Godin nylon multiac thru exactly the same electronic
rig. Oddly enough, I don't find it necessary to adjust things very
much when I switch guitars. I may have to reduce the bass on the amps
if the Godin is feeding back. Depends on the room.

If I seemed like I was contradicting myself, maybe that's because
this is a balancing act. I was responding to a post from a player who
seemed to be concerned that his Epi pickups, which he liked, could be
improved by going to a replacement. My thought was that he would be
better off focusing on exactly what change he wanted to make in his
sound and then try to figure out exactly where the problem, if any,
was.

Overall, I think gear is very important, even though I rarely tinker
with it any more (I used to build the Anderton projects and on board
preamps and so forth). My post was in reaction to a commenter who
suggested just focusing on touch. I suggest a very focused approach.
The stuff is expensive and there are so many possible combinations
that you can't try them all.

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "brianmayeux" <brianmayeux@y...>
wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you

must

play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier strat ??

However, if you are playing a $1000+ istrument you're contradicting
yourself...

-Brian

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

I think I'm pretty much on the other end of the spectrum from
gearheads, but I see this differently.

I agree that your touch is the most important thing. But, being a
great electric guitar player means that you're playing an

instrument

which begins with body and ends with the dispersion of sound to

your

audience. Every link in that chain is important. Sure, some may

make

more difference than others, but they all count. Playing great is

the

sum of a seemingly endless series of details. And, in the end,

you'll

have to pay attention to every one.

The fact is that some setups sound better than others and getting
great sound is important. I wouldn't wait until some arbitrary

time

in the future to think about it. The sound of the instrument will
change the way you play. It's a feedback loop, not a one way

system.

Having said that, I think it's important to be focused in the

effort

to improve your sound. I don't think it's enough to say, will a

new

pickup sound better? I think it would be better to be able to
identify what characteristics you're looking for and then figure

out

what you need to do to get them.

You'll hear all kinds of stories. Some guys (me included) have
changed pickups to advantage. Other guys talk about preamps

making

all the difference. For others is pedals. For others it's
amplification. For others it's amp placement for proper

dispersion.

And, in the cracks you'll find guys talking about pots,

capacitors,

cables, tube types etc.

All of those things can change the sound -- and there are so many
you'd be hard pressed to try every combination. So, I like a

problem

solving approach. What is it you want to sound like? What do you

need

to do to get it?

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "hueyhoolihan"
<hueyhoolihan@y...> wrote:

different pickup manufacturing methods and designs sound

different.

the same design and manufacturer's pickup will sound different

on

the

same guitar too if mounted in a different orientation relative

to

the

top, nut and bridge.

in general, i believe buying equipment to enhance ones sound is
counterproductive. it tends to lose the focus on ones personal
improvement that is so necessary to reaching goals. i liken it

to

golfers who are members in good standing to the 'driver of the

month'

club, who will insist that the lastest $500 toy is finally the

answer

to their problem. yes, it may help for a while, but it is only

for a

while, because the real problem lies elsewhere. eventually they

manage

to groove their poor swing skills on the new club, and are

back

where

they started.

i think your instincts are correct regarding "the sound is in

your

fingers, and nothing else matters" statement, but it is perhaps

a

little too extreme to agree with completely.

regards,
huey

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "bebmen" <bebmen@y...>

wrote:

Does a good pickup really change the sound? I mean, I have

always

thought that the sound is in your fingers, and nothing else

matters.

Last year I bought chinesse Epi Dot with serial Epiphone

pups,

and to

my vast surprise they sound good. Will any Gibson 57 or

Seymour

make

me sound better?

I was refering to the remark,

"I think I'm pretty much on the other end of the spectrum from
gearheads, but I see this differently."

Every time I talk about equipment on this site, I get people telling
me not to focus on it... And these are most likely people with the
$6000 Gibson L5's (or something as expensive)... To me, that is a
contradiction...

I already know how to improve myself musically/technically... I come
to this site to mostly get info on equipment... Good or bad that is
what I do...

-Brian

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Jeff Shirkey <jcshirke@m...>
wrote:

On Oct 1, 2005, at 12:45 PM, brianmayeux wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you

must

play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier strat ??

I think you should reread what Rick said. He said the exact

opposite

of what you claim he said. He said that *every* link in the

chain,

including (but not limited to) pickups, matters.

Jeff

I already know how to improve myself musically/technically... I come
to this site to mostly get info on equipment... Good or bad that is
what I do...

If it's equipment info you want, I'd highly recommend visiting The Gear Page (thegearpage.net) regularly. It's frequented by a lot of high end, boutique gear snobs, but, hey, I'm one of them. :)

Jeff

You certainly weren't argumentative and now that you are saying gear
is important changes my outlook totally...


--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

First of all, I want to apologize if I sounded argumentative. That
wasn't my intention.

To answer your question, I play a Gibson L5-S (paf reissue in neck
position) with and ME-50 pedal board. I use a little stereo chorus
and typically play thru two amps at once with the ME-50 generating
the stereo. The amps are a Roland JC-55 and a Yamaha JX-40. These

are

pretty cheap amps and neither one sounds that great alone, but,
together, the boominess of the JX-40 compensates for the tinniness

of

the JC-55 and I like the result. Before that, I played the L5-S

into

a Mesa Boogie Mark III.

Even with all that, I can pretty much get my clean sound out of

any

reasonable amp. But I also use some distortion based sounds at

times

which are more gear sensitive.

I also play a Godin nylon multiac thru exactly the same electronic
rig. Oddly enough, I don't find it necessary to adjust things very
much when I switch guitars. I may have to reduce the bass on the

amps

if the Godin is feeding back. Depends on the room.

If I seemed like I was contradicting myself, maybe that's because
this is a balancing act. I was responding to a post from a player

who

seemed to be concerned that his Epi pickups, which he liked, could

be

improved by going to a replacement. My thought was that he would

be

better off focusing on exactly what change he wanted to make in

his

sound and then try to figure out exactly where the problem, if

any,

was.

Overall, I think gear is very important, even though I rarely

tinker

with it any more (I used to build the Anderton projects and on

board

preamps and so forth). My post was in reaction to a commenter who
suggested just focusing on touch. I suggest a very focused

approach.

The stuff is expensive and there are so many possible combinations
that you can't try them all.

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "brianmayeux"

<brianmayeux@y...>

wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you

must

play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier strat ??

However, if you are playing a $1000+ istrument you're

contradicting

yourself...

-Brian

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

I think I'm pretty much on the other end of the spectrum from
gearheads, but I see this differently.

I agree that your touch is the most important thing. But,

being a

great electric guitar player means that you're playing an

instrument

which begins with body and ends with the dispersion of sound

to

your

audience. Every link in that chain is important. Sure, some

may

make

more difference than others, but they all count. Playing great

is

the

sum of a seemingly endless series of details. And, in the end,

you'll

have to pay attention to every one.

The fact is that some setups sound better than others and

getting

great sound is important. I wouldn't wait until some arbitrary

time

in the future to think about it. The sound of the instrument

will

change the way you play. It's a feedback loop, not a one way

system.

Having said that, I think it's important to be focused in the

effort

to improve your sound. I don't think it's enough to say, will

a

new

pickup sound better? I think it would be better to be able to
identify what characteristics you're looking for and then

figure

out

what you need to do to get them.

You'll hear all kinds of stories. Some guys (me included) have
changed pickups to advantage. Other guys talk about preamps

making

all the difference. For others is pedals. For others it's
amplification. For others it's amp placement for proper

dispersion.

And, in the cracks you'll find guys talking about pots,

capacitors,

cables, tube types etc.

All of those things can change the sound -- and there are so

many

you'd be hard pressed to try every combination. So, I like a

problem

solving approach. What is it you want to sound like? What do

you

need

to do to get it?

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "hueyhoolihan"
<hueyhoolihan@y...> wrote:

different pickup manufacturing methods and designs sound

different.

the same design and manufacturer's pickup will sound

different

on

the

same guitar too if mounted in a different orientation

relative

to

the

top, nut and bridge.

in general, i believe buying equipment to enhance ones sound

is

counterproductive. it tends to lose the focus on ones

personal

improvement that is so necessary to reaching goals. i liken

it

to

golfers who are members in good standing to the 'driver of

the

month'

club, who will insist that the lastest $500 toy is finally

the

answer

to their problem. yes, it may help for a while, but it is

only

for a

while, because the real problem lies elsewhere. eventually

they

manage

to groove their poor swing skills on the new club, and are

back

where

they started.

i think your instincts are correct regarding "the sound is

in

your

fingers, and nothing else matters" statement, but it is

perhaps

a

little too extreme to agree with completely.

regards,
huey

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "bebmen" <bebmen@y...>

wrote:

Does a good pickup really change the sound? I mean, I

have

always

thought that the sound is in your fingers, and nothing

else

matters.

Last year I bought chinesse Epi Dot with serial Epiphone

pups,

and to

my vast surprise they sound good. Will any Gibson 57 or

Seymour

make

me sound better?

I play a high end guitar, but the exact same one for more that 20
years, with no mods except for the pickup. I play low end amps (even
though I have a high end amp). You can buy a JX-40 for about $50 on
ebay and a JC-55 for about $250. And I can get my sound out of
almost any amp. I rarely change my rig. I'm insensitive to string
brand, although I have my preferred gauges. I'm not especially
curious about every new great thing that comes out. Years ago I
experimented with all kinds of electronic devices and modifications
and ended up going back to stock stuff except for a little chorus and
reverb.

So, am I a gearhead?

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "brianmayeux" <brianmayeux@y...>
wrote:

I was refering to the remark,

"I think I'm pretty much on the other end of the spectrum from
gearheads, but I see this differently."

Every time I talk about equipment on this site, I get people

telling

me not to focus on it... And these are most likely people with the
$6000 Gibson L5's (or something as expensive)... To me, that is a
contradiction...

I already know how to improve myself musically/technically... I

come

to this site to mostly get info on equipment... Good or bad that is
what I do...

-Brian

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Jeff Shirkey <jcshirke@m...>
wrote:

On Oct 1, 2005, at 12:45 PM, brianmayeux wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you

must

play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier

strat ??

I think you should reread what Rick said. He said the exact

opposite

of what you claim he said. He said that *every* link in the

chain,

including (but not limited to) pickups, matters.

Jeff

You're not a gear head and neither am I... Just someone who wants to
get the sound I am looking for...

It's funny... My wife and I agreed that I would only own two guitars
the rest of my life ... One solid body and one hollow... The solid
body is a no brainer: 73 Gibson Les Paul... I am just trying to find
the right hollow body (that I can afford) for me...

I have only owned one solid body and one amp my whole life...

Well the amp was replaced since my other was ready for the
graveyard...

Anyway enough with the gear talk...

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

I play a high end guitar, but the exact same one for more that 20
years, with no mods except for the pickup. I play low end amps

(even

though I have a high end amp). You can buy a JX-40 for about $50

on

ebay and a JC-55 for about $250. And I can get my sound out of
almost any amp. I rarely change my rig. I'm insensitive to string
brand, although I have my preferred gauges. I'm not especially
curious about every new great thing that comes out. Years ago I
experimented with all kinds of electronic devices and

modifications

and ended up going back to stock stuff except for a little chorus

and

reverb.

So, am I a gearhead?

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "brianmayeux"

<brianmayeux@y...>

wrote:

I was refering to the remark,

"I think I'm pretty much on the other end of the spectrum from
gearheads, but I see this differently."

Every time I talk about equipment on this site, I get people

telling

me not to focus on it... And these are most likely people with

the

$6000 Gibson L5's (or something as expensive)... To me, that is

a

contradiction...

I already know how to improve myself musically/technically... I

come

to this site to mostly get info on equipment... Good or bad that

is

what I do...

-Brian

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Jeff Shirkey <jcshirke@m...>
wrote:

On Oct 1, 2005, at 12:45 PM, brianmayeux wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess

you

must

play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier

strat ??

I think you should reread what Rick said. He said the exact

opposite

of what you claim he said. He said that *every* link in the

chain,

including (but not limited to) pickups, matters.

Jeff

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "brianmayeux" <brianmayeux@y...>
wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you

must

play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier strat ??

I do, and it doesn't affect my playing at all.

I don't play a Benedetto one dang bit better than I play my JT-136
which cost $299. Probably worse, since I don't have fb problems with
the Jay Turser.

I do have a squier lineage guitar too, a DeArmond X-145 I paid $250
for, and it plays fine too.

The videos I've put up have all been on cheap guitars, the above
mentioned and an Epiphone Studio Dot, ($237) and the output sounds
about the same to me. The ornithology/moon fingersyle solo is on the
DeArmond and the chick and trane stuff up now is on the jt-136.

My mentor on guitar early on, Oscar Wright, was an excellent player
and a pretty large influence on my outlook.

He told me he didn't personally care anything at all about the tone
of his instrument. What mattered to him was timing, note choice,
phrasing and being at one in a group and with himself.

He was a very busy cat, and always caught the attention of the Joe
Henderson Woody Shaw type musican because he was so well plugged into
that idiom. He'd also gigged with every r&b artist I'd about ever
heard of, and stayed busy, so it didn't affect his employability,
either.

He cared not one little bit about tone, just dialed in something he
was comfortable with. He played a Framus with a Jim Hall neck and two
floating single coil pickups that were very trebly straight into a
twin he'd cut down some for portability.

I've sort of hit on one jazz tone I like and just get that out of
whatever guitar, since it's pretty easy to do.

What's important to me is dimension - I want a short scale guitar
with accesible frets and a reasonably low action and straight neck,
Competent workmanship, not necessarily perfect, and strings between
14's and 11's, but if I have all that, there's not going to be any
improvement in my ability if all I'm doing is playing on something
fancier.

I do tend to favor blond guitars, but to me they usually sound a
little different acoustically in a way I like.

I dunno, maybe some people get ten times the performance, or a
hundred times the performance for the same ratio of investment, but
that doesn't happen with me at all. I'll play a cheap short scale
better than a mint New Yorker from before WWII, I'll guarantee you.

For me, if it's in there, it'll come out regardless, and if it isn't
no price of guitar is going to make it be otherwise.

Clif Kuplen

Clif,

I don't know how worthy of bandwidth my response will be, but I do
see this differently.

Tone is important to me in two main ways. One is that I care how
others hear my guitar. But, probably even more important, is that I
can't play my best unless the guitar sounds "right". If I don't get
my sound it feels like I'm playing with somebody else's hands. I
can't get comfortable, because every note irritates me. Predictably,
there are times when I can't stand the sound and the other musicians
can't figure out what I'm complaining about.

I do agree, though, that if you had to pick tone vs groove, you'd go
with groove every time. But, in reality, you don't have to pick
between them, so you might as well pay attention to both.

Also, the guitar players I like all have great tone. Wes, Jim Hall,
Santana, Knopfler, Metheny, for example, are all guys whose tone I
love.

Joe Pass is an example of the other side of things. I have an album
of his called Tudo Bem. It's the music I like (Brazilian), played by
a great rhythm section. Joe's stuff is in the pocket and melodically
terrific. But his guitar sounds thin and dry and keeps me from
enjoying the music more.

Rick




--- In jazz_guitar@..., "jazzclif" <jurupari@a...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "brianmayeux"

<brianmayeux@y...>

wrote:

OK... So what do you play... If gear doesn't matter I guess you

must

play the cheapest thing out there ... Like a Used squier strat ??

I do, and it doesn't affect my playing at all.

I don't play a Benedetto one dang bit better than I play my JT-136
which cost $299. Probably worse, since I don't have fb problems

with

the Jay Turser.

I do have a squier lineage guitar too, a DeArmond X-145 I paid $250
for, and it plays fine too.

The videos I've put up have all been on cheap guitars, the above
mentioned and an Epiphone Studio Dot, ($237) and the output sounds
about the same to me. The ornithology/moon fingersyle solo is on

the

DeArmond and the chick and trane stuff up now is on the jt-136.

My mentor on guitar early on, Oscar Wright, was an excellent player
and a pretty large influence on my outlook.

He told me he didn't personally care anything at all about the tone
of his instrument. What mattered to him was timing, note choice,
phrasing and being at one in a group and with himself.

He was a very busy cat, and always caught the attention of the Joe
Henderson Woody Shaw type musican because he was so well plugged

into

that idiom. He'd also gigged with every r&b artist I'd about ever
heard of, and stayed busy, so it didn't affect his employability,
either.

He cared not one little bit about tone, just dialed in something he
was comfortable with. He played a Framus with a Jim Hall neck and

two

floating single coil pickups that were very trebly straight into a
twin he'd cut down some for portability.

I've sort of hit on one jazz tone I like and just get that out of
whatever guitar, since it's pretty easy to do.

What's important to me is dimension - I want a short scale guitar
with accesible frets and a reasonably low action and straight neck,
Competent workmanship, not necessarily perfect, and strings between
14's and 11's, but if I have all that, there's not going to be any
improvement in my ability if all I'm doing is playing on something
fancier.

I do tend to favor blond guitars, but to me they usually sound a
little different acoustically in a way I like.

I dunno, maybe some people get ten times the performance, or a
hundred times the performance for the same ratio of investment, but
that doesn't happen with me at all. I'll play a cheap short scale
better than a mint New Yorker from before WWII, I'll guarantee you.

For me, if it's in there, it'll come out regardless, and if it

isn't

no price of guitar is going to make it be otherwise.

Clif Kuplen

I feel a bit responible for this discusion, since I asked about my Epi
pups. I agree with Rick, the sound is your goal, and you must find the
way (equipment) to get it. The point is I have already bought Seymour
Duncan SH1 59' model. Was it a good decision?

On 10/1/05 4:28 PM, "Rick_Poll" <richardipollack@...> wrote:

Joe Pass is an example of the other side of things. I have an album
of his called Tudo Bem. It's the music I like (Brazilian), played by
a great rhythm section. Joe's stuff is in the pocket and melodically
terrific. But his guitar sounds thin and dry and keeps me from
enjoying the music more.

I have the same problem with a lot of modern jazz records, especially almost
all of the studio stuff I've heard from Metheny (admittedly not a lot, but
still 3 or 4 albums) and people the likes of Frissel. I can hear their
"musical ideas" but I just can't get into a groove with their playing mainly
because of their recorded guitar tone. Thin and effected guitar just doesn't
sound right to me, sort of the way someone
half-singing/half-whispering/half-whining behind a wall of chorus and
reverb doesn't make for the same impact as a Nat Cole or Diana Krall or Ella
or Sinatra vocal. I don't like the lead melodic instrument to be hard to
hear!

<please guys, don't flame me! I'm just calling it like _I_ hear it>

The interesting thing is that I've seen Frissel live once or twice and come
away with a similar impression, but I do dig some of his old stuff with Paul
Motian. I can find examples of Metheny that I do like, but they're mostly
live "unofficial" releases as well.

So maybe I'm a gearhead, like to hear the instrument as much as the
musician, and only dig the energy from live performances where the artist
might take risks that they wouldn't in a studio? Or maybe they just left all
the damn stompboxes at home that night!

I will say that I felt I played better while visiting my big/heavy fender
amps in LA last month. Why? Because I could get a fullness of sound from the
12" combo amps with just the right amount of reverb that my lightweight tube
gear (all 10" speaker combos) here in NJ can't touch. And that was with the
borrowed Epi Joe Pass I was working on, vs. my normal Heritage Eagle that
didn't make the flight.

-mike

I really think that only you can answer that.

We talk about classic jazz tone. I think that people are generally
referring to something like Wes' sound, not much treble and lots of
warmth. Sometimes called a "round" sound.

But, that sound is a half century old. It's classic and some people
still use it and sound great. But there are lots of great players who
use different sounds entirely. Scofield, Mike Stern and Pat Metheny
quickly come to mind. Why not sound like them? Or better yet,
concentrate on finding your own voice.

The pickup you mentioned is a great choice -- for somebody. Maybe for
you.

Rick


--- In jazz_guitar@..., "bebmen" <bebmen@y...> wrote:

I feel a bit responible for this discusion, since I asked about my

Epi

pups. I agree with Rick, the sound is your goal, and you must find

the

way (equipment) to get it. The point is I have already bought

Seymour

Duncan SH1 59' model. Was it a good decision?

Ok, again I agree with you, but the main conclusion of this
discussion is that there is no other way to find that 'own great'
sound without spending thousands on various equipment. Isn't it sad?

I do, and it doesn't affect my playing at all.

I think the ability to get a decent jazz tone using cheap gear is much easier than getting a good tone in, say, blues, or rock.

Jeff

I agree. Pickups especially. How are you going to A-B compare pickups?
The sound of each depends on a number of factors, including the
capacitor values, pot types, and details of setup. By the time you'd
finished soldering in the next one and trying different caps, you'd
have forgotten what the first one sounded like.

I think you probably start with what you've got, or somebody you've
heard whose sound you like and tinker a little at a time. Tough
problem.

One time a guy came out of the audience and offered to buy my entire
rig. Maybe not such a bad approach, unless, of course, the sound is in
the player, not the equipment. And, if that's true, you've gotta try
everything yourself, you can't rely on ads or others' experience or
anything.

And then, just to complicate matters, if your experience is anything
like mine, the exact same gear sounds heavenly in one room and makes
you want to smash and burn it in another.

Rick

on 10/1/05 5:38 PM, bebmen at bebmen@... wrote:


Ok, again I agree with you, but the main conclusion of this
discussion is that there is no other way to find that 'own great'
sound without spending thousands on various equipment. Isn't it sad?


Well, a concert pianist plays on instruments costing in the $100,000 area,
and Stradivari are worth millions, in some cases. With the guitar, we have a
relative bargain, plus chicks.

i have to respectfully disagree, between the type of strings, pick,
fingers, where the player plucks the strings, tone controls, dynamics,
attack, etc, etc, there is more than enough room to create one's own
sound. and they are for the most part free or relatively inexpensive.

i recently paid particular attention to a jazz recording i happened to
hear on the radio. the artist rarely played a straight note. the vast
majority had some type of inflection, that had much more to do the the
quality of sound than anything else. there were slides from above,
slides from below, bent notes, some were plenty bent and others, less
so, there were notes that were only slightly implied by judicious use
of dynamics and soft attack, notes were played all around and
sometimes on the beat, vibrato or lack of it was apparent in infinite
variety, quickly repeated notes were played but each was subtly or in
some cases not so sublty different, each had a different sound. if one
finds a artist that is unlistenable my guess would be that their is a
mismatch between taste and execution, not gear.

my only conclusion has to be that given the same equipment, any artist
that one finds pleasing would still be found pleasing and any artist
that one finds lacking in some way would still be found lacking. it is
unreasonable to think that one could buy ones way to a successful
sound. or more compellingly that one would be so destitute that their
taste and talent would not prevail.

now that i think about it.. if this is not the case, i'm not sure it
is a goal worthy of pursuit.

huey

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

Clif,

I don't know how worthy of bandwidth my response will be, but I do
see this differently.

Tone is important to me in two main ways. One is that I care how
others hear my guitar.

I used to, but there's absolutely nothing uniform about an audience
response and there's not much that can ever be done about it.

There's apparently something seriously wrong with EVERYBODY's
playing in somebody's ears, it seems. :o) I think if you get the tone
you like and you're sayin' something, that's about as far as you can
take it.


But, probably even more important, is that I

can't play my best unless the guitar sounds "right". If I don't get
my sound it feels like I'm playing with somebody else's hands. I
can't get comfortable, because every note irritates me.

Predictably,

there are times when I can't stand the sound and the other

musicians

can't figure out what I'm complaining about.

As guitarists we're really prone to that! Usually it's masking.

I've found the best way to get around that for me is to squeeze the
signal a little bit.

I've used some standing compression for about 25 years now, I
suppose. Presently I use a presonus blue max on commercial gigs and a
little crate studio unit on solo jazz.

I can get away without it, but it's great for eliminating masking,
and for archtops, it helps control feedback. I don't want to get into
how since it's complicated, but it does, no kidding.

I do agree, though, that if you had to pick tone vs groove, you'd

go

with groove every time. But, in reality, you don't have to pick
between them, so you might as well pay attention to both.

Also, the guitar players I like all have great tone. Wes, Jim Hall,
Santana, Knopfler, Metheny, for example, are all guys whose tone I
love.

Joe Pass is an example of the other side of things. I have an album
of his called Tudo Bem. It's the music I like (Brazilian), played

by

a great rhythm section. Joe's stuff is in the pocket and

melodically

terrific. But his guitar sounds thin and dry and keeps me from
enjoying the music more.

I haven't heard that, but my favorite tone of his was the flubbed one
on the first virtuoso album.

It isn't really dry, though. There's a small amount of reverb and an
echo image in the non dominant channel.

I don't much care for the tones of any of the guys you mention,
really, but love all their playing to the point I don't really notice
tone. Jim Hall's seems to change a lot from album to album as I
recall.

I supppose my favorite guitar tone would maybe be Kenny Burrell on
the stuff he did with trane for a 'jazz guitar' sound.

Wes was all over the map with electic tone, and was famous or maybe
notorious in his time for always hating it and continually trying to
tweak it.

Oscar, my mentor I mentioned was a very Wes-like phraser,a disciple
in a lot of ways, and took apart harmony in a very similar way but
with very different note choices.

One reason he just said to hell with it about tone was because of his
simpatico with Wes and his identifying with Wes' troubles with tone.

I know he was just trying to get past all that, but we all have
trouble with masking.

There was even a reference to his tone quest on one of Wes' liner
notes from before he was on Verve. He has recordings with vibrato
and off the back pickup.

It's not that tone isn't important to me, it's seriously important,
but I can get a tone I'm ok with out of about anything I've ever
played, usually by just dialing it in with whatever amp I'm using,
but occasionally like with my cheap guitars, I have to angle the
pickup towards treble to roll off some of the bass to make the volume
more even.

I'd thought the discussion was more about the relative merits of high-
end guitars rather than tone, so my comments might not have been on
point.

I don't suppose I feel much different from you, but I've just had a
lot of practice getting the sound I want, and don't equate it to high-
end guitars, of which I've had more than my share.

I remember a Gretsch Firebird I had that just didn't do it for me
though, so I've got limits, but I've played a '60 strat and 2 '70's
teles and 2 '50's les pauls and a '54 super 4 and a couple of 175's,
one from the '50s and a 1975 I have now, a 335, an epi 350, an Ibanez
AS200 and the 3 cheap asian guitars I have now, and for jazz, any of
them was fine, and I could get about the same tone out of any of
them. But I had to get rid of the Gretsch - I just couldn't get it to
sound right at high volumes.

Clif

Clif,

I'm unclear. What is "masking"?

Thanks,

Rick



--- In jazz_guitar@..., "jazzclif" <jurupari@a...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

Clif,

I don't know how worthy of bandwidth my response will be, but I

do

see this differently.

Tone is important to me in two main ways. One is that I care how
others hear my guitar.

I used to, but there's absolutely nothing uniform about an audience
response and there's not much that can ever be done about it.

There's apparently something seriously wrong with EVERYBODY's
playing in somebody's ears, it seems. :o) I think if you get the

tone

you like and you're sayin' something, that's about as far as you

can

take it.


But, probably even more important, is that I

can't play my best unless the guitar sounds "right". If I don't

get

my sound it feels like I'm playing with somebody else's hands. I
can't get comfortable, because every note irritates me.

Predictably,

there are times when I can't stand the sound and the other

musicians

can't figure out what I'm complaining about.

As guitarists we're really prone to that! Usually it's masking.

I've found the best way to get around that for me is to squeeze

the

signal a little bit.

I've used some standing compression for about 25 years now, I
suppose. Presently I use a presonus blue max on commercial gigs and

a

little crate studio unit on solo jazz.

I can get away without it, but it's great for eliminating masking,
and for archtops, it helps control feedback. I don't want to get

into

how since it's complicated, but it does, no kidding.

I do agree, though, that if you had to pick tone vs groove, you'd

go

with groove every time. But, in reality, you don't have to pick
between them, so you might as well pay attention to both.

Also, the guitar players I like all have great tone. Wes, Jim

Hall,

Santana, Knopfler, Metheny, for example, are all guys whose tone

I

love.

Joe Pass is an example of the other side of things. I have an

album

of his called Tudo Bem. It's the music I like (Brazilian), played

by

a great rhythm section. Joe's stuff is in the pocket and

melodically

terrific. But his guitar sounds thin and dry and keeps me from
enjoying the music more.

I haven't heard that, but my favorite tone of his was the flubbed

one

on the first virtuoso album.

It isn't really dry, though. There's a small amount of reverb and

an

echo image in the non dominant channel.

I don't much care for the tones of any of the guys you mention,
really, but love all their playing to the point I don't really

notice

tone. Jim Hall's seems to change a lot from album to album as I
recall.

I supppose my favorite guitar tone would maybe be Kenny Burrell on
the stuff he did with trane for a 'jazz guitar' sound.

Wes was all over the map with electic tone, and was famous or maybe
notorious in his time for always hating it and continually trying

to

tweak it.

Oscar, my mentor I mentioned was a very Wes-like phraser,a disciple
in a lot of ways, and took apart harmony in a very similar way but
with very different note choices.

One reason he just said to hell with it about tone was because of

his

simpatico with Wes and his identifying with Wes' troubles with

tone.

I know he was just trying to get past all that, but we all have
trouble with masking.

There was even a reference to his tone quest on one of Wes' liner
notes from before he was on Verve. He has recordings with vibrato
and off the back pickup.

It's not that tone isn't important to me, it's seriously important,
but I can get a tone I'm ok with out of about anything I've ever
played, usually by just dialing it in with whatever amp I'm using,
but occasionally like with my cheap guitars, I have to angle the
pickup towards treble to roll off some of the bass to make the

volume

more even.

I'd thought the discussion was more about the relative merits of

high-

end guitars rather than tone, so my comments might not have been on
point.

I don't suppose I feel much different from you, but I've just had a
lot of practice getting the sound I want, and don't equate it to

high-

end guitars, of which I've had more than my share.

I remember a Gretsch Firebird I had that just didn't do it for me
though, so I've got limits, but I've played a '60 strat and 2 '70's
teles and 2 '50's les pauls and a '54 super 4 and a couple of

175's,

one from the '50s and a 1975 I have now, a 335, an epi 350, an

Ibanez

AS200 and the 3 cheap asian guitars I have now, and for jazz, any

of

them was fine, and I could get about the same tone out of any of
them. But I had to get rid of the Gretsch - I just couldn't get it

to

sound right at high volumes.

Clif