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Jazz Guitar Tree?
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Sean Williams
I was giving it some thought and was wondering if I
was wrong in my accessment. As far as a timeline and influences as far as styles, I picture a tree with Charlie Christian at the apex and then two branches with Wes Montgomery on one side and Jim Hall on the other. It could look like this with players similiar in style or mentioned influences branching further: Charlie Christian / \ Wes Montgomery Jim Hall / \ / \ Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny, Scofield This is just given as an example and maybe there are far too many players to peg this way. But it seems that there is one group who's lines are more bop oriented while another is more into space and textures. Is this fair? Sean Williams www.gtr4hire.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around |
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John Amato
--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:
Jim Hall's early influences with Sonny Rollins, Paul Desmond, Red Mitchell, Art Farmer, George Shearing, just to name a few would suggest he is more fashioned in the stylings of jazz that I would say borders with, mixes company with, and touches iinterlocking circles with the hard boppers .. yes, I would agree...
John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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Django
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I think you missed some people
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Eddie Lang, Freddie Green, Oscar Aleman,.. To name just a few. Then there's the Hawaiian steel guitarists who definitely had an influence on the time period.
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MJU
What about:
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1. Jimmy Raney, Kenny Burrell, Barney Kessell, Tal Farlow and others (like Johnny Smith) in that vein after Christian? 2. Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Mundell Lowe, Tal, & Grant Green along with Wes and Jim Hall? Django and Christian were essentially around at the same time. One was European Gypsy the other Mid West Swing and Blues. Then thereare those that were more or less contemporaries of Christian (an influences on him): Oscar Moore & Eddie Durham (who was the one that turned a young CC on to the electric guitar). There are too many others that were important and influential before Chirstian on the instrument. I saw where someone mentioned Lang, but then there is Kress, McDonough, Van EPs and the other big band guys like Freddie Green and Bus Etri that had a major impact on the instrument at the time. The timeline from the 1900's to 1970 would fill a volume or two of an encyclopedia-type book easily. I know that you were probably giving an overview but there are too many people to figure in (for me that is). I must lie down and think about this............... :) ----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Williams" <scanz777@...> To: <jazz_guitar@...> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:42 PM Subject: [jazz_guitar] Jazz Guitar Tree? I was giving it some thought and was wondering if I |
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John Amato
--- bausin@... wrote:
DjangoI don't see Django at the top of this list because, as| a contemporary of Christian in "swing" from the 30s to 53 when he passed away, his major influences were not in American roots as Chritians' were, et. al. W.C. Handy, Jelly Roll Morton: Blues and Dixieland ... Django's major influences were from gypsy musicians such as Poulette Castro and Gusti Malha -- not rooted in jazz. Django's aspirations were to play with an American big band, which he did in the late 40's, with Duke Ellington (was Django's last tour before he passed on in 53...) Django, no doubt was a huge contributor, and made a largecontribution to jazz guitar -- but he doesn't stack up to be top gun ... John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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John you missed one big influence. Louis Armstrong. Django loved him.
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_A From: John Amato <jamato316@...> |
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Sean Williams
I would have to agree with what John said about
Django. I am not saying that he was not brilliant he was. I think his style was so distinct that his infuence did not pass on like Montgomery or Hall's. I see it more like this: Charlie Christian Django / \ \ Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene ? / \ / \ Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco Sean Williams www.gtr4hire.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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Sean Williams
I forgot Freddie Green being an influence on Jim Hall.
So maybe the tree should look like this. Charlie Christian Django / \ \ Freddie Green B. Lagrene? / \ Wes Montgomery Jim Hall / \ / \ Benson,Martino,Raney Metheny,Sco,Goodrick I think the others did not have as much impact as Wes and Hall, IMHO. --- Adriel <azure.music@...> wrote: I think you missed some people Sean Williams www.gtr4hire.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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Sean Williams
Cool, do you have a scanned image?
--- JVegaTrio@... wrote: I haven't read all the messages on this thread, but --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Sean Williams www.gtr4hire.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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John,
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It is wrong to say that Django has not influenced any jazz guitarists. Django was a huge influence on virtually every jazz guitar player from about 1940-1960. It's true that the gypsy style that made him famous didn't make it into mainstream jazz, but this doesn't mean that his influence was not strong. Charlie Christian had great admiration for Django and apparently was able to play his solos note for note. The first gig Wes had was one in which he only played Django solos. Joe Pass released an entire album called "For Django" and also started off playing Django style. The list is endless. Of course all these guys had their own distinctive styles, but there is a bit of Django in all of them! Of course, for the original gypsy guitar style there is still an active scene with guys like Birelli Lagrene, Stochello Rosenberg, Martin Taylor, etc. If you listen to Django's recordings after the second world war, he has a much more modern sound and line-up. He was a passionate fan of bebop after hearing Dizzy's "Salt Peanuts", immediately recognising the contrafact. He played with Gillespie when Diz visited France in the early 50s. He was also a big fan of Bird. Django's last recordings were pure bebop and are well worth hearing if you can get hold of them. I don't think I would put Django at the top of the tree either, but I would put him alongside Christian. Rob --- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...> wrote:
--- bausin@s... wrote:DjangoI don't see Django at the top of this list because, as| |
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--- In jazz_guitar@..., Sean Williams <scanz777@y...>
wrote: Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is the recordings with Stan Getz that date back to c. 1950. Tal Farlow also was prominent then, and Wes even cited him as an influence. |
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John Amato
--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:
Sean, I cannot see Birelli Lagrene over Mick Goodrick, for one reason they are contemporaries, another reason, they are not in the same genre -- and Lagrene would not be a bopper either ... he would have to be in another category ... John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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John Amato
--- Robin <rbalean@...> wrote:
John,Robin, where did I say Django did not influence jazz guitarist? please go back and read my post (in its entirety...). please read again what I said that he was a major influence and had a huge impact on jazz guitar besides being a major contributor to the field. I give Django all the credit, applause, acclaim and rightful place in the jazz guitar illustrious hall of fame ... merely, that he doesn't belong at the top of the list John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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John Amato
Charlie Christian
Ben,/ \Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is Historically, Ben may more accurate because in 1955, Jim Hall became a member of the original Chico Hamilton Quintet, and was then that Jim began to attract national, and then international, attention. and same for Tal and Wes... this chart may have to be revised ... besides whatthe books say ... I think the real experts on jazz guitar are right are here in this forum... (glad to be in the company ...) His Discography states: 1950s: Jim Hall: Jazz Guitar (Pacific Jazz) Street Swingers with Bobby Brookmeyer & Jimmy Raney (Pacific Jazz) Undercurrent with Bill Evans (United Artists) Paul Desmond and Friends (Warner Bros) ...which dates Hall 5 years Raney's junior ,,,, John Amato Music blows the dust off your soul... Isa.55:11 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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Oh My Gawd, where's Leonard Feather when we need him.
M --- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...> wrote: Charlie ChristianBen,/ \Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is |
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Sean Williams
Agreed he would not be in the same categories at all,
I just did not have enough space. :) --- John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote: --- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:Sean, --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Sean Williams www.gtr4hire.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 |
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You guys have to make a bigger tree. And some branches have the same
age, but look at different directions. And another thing, shouldn't the roots be at the bottom? --- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...> wrote: Charlie ChristianBen,/ \Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is |
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