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--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:

Agreed he would not be in the same categories at
all,
I just did not have enough space. :)

I see it more like this:

Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene ?
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco

Sean,

I cannot see Birelli Lagrene over Mick Goodrick,

for

one reason they are contemporaries, another

reason,

Sean,

Very possibly there could be another sub-category of
"European Jazz Guitarist s (post-bop ...? neo-Django?
post-swing?... neo-cool? jazz/rock ... I'd say take
suggestions for sub-cat and genres ...) --- Martin
Taylor would come on later in this category ... like
where would John McLaughlin go?

Sean, this will take some research ... lol ... did you
foresee the research that this would involve ...
hehehe ... there ya' go, boy ...

..why? because your on a website where there are some
passionate jazzers about our loved instrument ... me
being one .. and we cry out for just the right chord
... aka accuracy ...

...we are contribute to your chart .. and when it's
finished it will something we can all aspire to get on
... hehe...lol

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11




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I agree - much bigger tree, I liked the post form the guy who
mentioned Burrell, Kessel, Farlow, Van Eps - whose stature and
influence goes beyond Jim Hall IMHO. If you are looking for a top to
the tree you should look beyond Django and Christian and check out
Eddie Lang. He made the guitar a solo instrument before the electric
era.


--- In jazz_guitar@..., "jim_9791" <dimitris@d...> wrote:

You guys have to make a bigger tree. And some branches have the

same

age, but look at different directions. And another thing,

shouldn't

the roots be at the bottom?










--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>
wrote:

Charlie Christian

/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

Is this fair?

Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is
the recordings
with Stan Getz that date back to c. 1950. Tal Farlow
also was
prominent then, and Wes even cited him as an
influence.

Ben,

Historically, Ben may more accurate because in 1955,
Jim Hall became a member of the original Chico
Hamilton Quintet, and was then that Jim began to
attract national, and then international, attention.

and same for Tal and Wes... this chart may have to be
revised ... besides whatthe books say ... I think the
real experts on jazz guitar are right are here in this
forum...
(glad to be in the company ...)

His Discography states:
1950s:
Jim Hall: Jazz Guitar (Pacific Jazz)
Street Swingers with Bobby Brookmeyer & Jimmy Raney
(Pacific Jazz)
Undercurrent with Bill Evans (United Artists)
Paul Desmond and Friends (Warner Bros)

...which dates Hall 5 years Raney's junior ,,,,

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

Hey YJGG,

Juan was nice enough to send me the .pdf and I went
ahead and loaded the file in our archive. Check it out
it is pretty interesting.

Home / PDF Files / Miscellaneous

Thanks again Juan.

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com




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Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Hey Brother!

LOL, I know this is a can of worms. Check out the
uploaded file on my last post. I think most of the
work has been done but I am not sure why Wes is in
that position because I know he was a big influence on
Pat Metheny as much as Jim Hall. I don't think I would
put Pat Martino under Tal Farlow either. John
Mclaughlin is another that is under the Tal Farlow
branch?

I know you can hear the influences on some.
But, I guess the only way to really tell is to look at
interviews and see who are mentioned influences.

Let me know what you think?

--- John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:

--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:

Agreed he would not be in the same categories at
all,
I just did not have enough space. :)

I see it more like this:

Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene

?

/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco

Sean,

I cannot see Birelli Lagrene over Mick Goodrick,

for

one reason they are contemporaries, another

reason,

Sean,

Very possibly there could be another sub-category of
"European Jazz Guitarist s (post-bop ...?
neo-Django?
post-swing?... neo-cool? jazz/rock ... I'd say take
suggestions for sub-cat and genres ...) --- Martin
Taylor would come on later in this category ... like
where would John McLaughlin go?

Sean, this will take some research ... lol ... did
you
foresee the research that this would involve ...
hehehe ... there ya' go, boy ...

..why? because your on a website where there are
some
passionate jazzers about our loved instrument ... me
being one .. and we cry out for just the right chord
... aka accuracy ...

...we are contribute to your chart .. and when it's
finished it will something we can all aspire to get
on
... hehe...lol

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

______________________________________________________

Yahoo! for Good
Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.




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Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com



__________________________________
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I think the problem with this sort of tree is that some players were
more influenced by guitarists than others.

I think it's fair to say that Wes was influenced by Christian, since
Wes reportedly learned to play by copying Christian solos. That's
also true for a lot of guys of that era. Barney Kessel comes to mind -
- he continued to use the "Charlie Christian" pickup throughout his
career.

But, Jim Hall, as someone pointed out, was probably more influenced
by horn players than guitar players. Tal Farlow credits Red Norvo
for a lot of his style.

I don't know exactly who influenced Metheny. His style was in place
when Bright Size Life came out. Who sounded remotely like that? Maybe
Gary Burton and associates? Does anyone know?

The great bop players may have become guitarists because of
Christian, and were certainly trodding in his footsteps in trying to
play horn-like lines, but I think it would be fair to say that Bird
influenced Raney more than Christian did. To me, Raney's lines remind
me of Bird, not Charlie.

My old teacher, Warren Nunes, curiously had a very small record
collection. He attributed his style to George Shearing.

Anyway, my point is that some guitarists were not influenced
primarily by other guitarists, Charlie Christian himself being a
shining example.

Rick








--- In jazz_guitar@..., "MJU" <memjazz@m...> wrote:

What about:

1. Jimmy Raney, Kenny Burrell, Barney Kessell, Tal Farlow and

others (like

Johnny Smith) in that vein after Christian?
2. Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Mundell Lowe, Tal, & Grant Green along

with Wes

and Jim Hall?

Django and Christian were essentially around at the same time. One

was

European Gypsy the other Mid West Swing and Blues.

Then thereare those that were more or less contemporaries of

Christian (an

influences on him): Oscar Moore & Eddie Durham (who was the one

that turned

a young CC on to the electric guitar).

There are too many others that were important and influential

before

Chirstian on the instrument. I saw where someone mentioned Lang,

but then

there is Kress, McDonough, Van EPs and the other big band guys like

Freddie

Green and Bus Etri that had a major impact on the instrument at the

time.

The timeline from the 1900's to 1970 would fill a volume or two of

an

encyclopedia-type book easily.

I know that you were probably giving an overview but there are too

many

people to figure in (for me that is). I must lie down and think

about

this............... :)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Williams" <scanz777@y...>
To: <jazz_guitar@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:42 PM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Jazz Guitar Tree?

I was giving it some thought and was wondering if I
was wrong in my accessment. As far as a timeline and
influences as far as styles, I picture a tree with
Charlie Christian at the apex and then two branches
with Wes Montgomery on one side and Jim Hall on the
other. It could look like this with players similiar
in style or mentioned influences branching further:

Charlie Christian
/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

This is just given as an example and maybe there are
far too many players to peg this way. But it seems
that there is one group who's lines are more bop
oriented while another is more into space and
textures.
Is this fair?


Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com

Good points! Especially about horn influences versus
guitar enfluences and I will second what you said
about Raney. If you have not checked out the tree that
was uploaded to Home/PDF Files/Miscellaneous/
Jazz_Guitar_Tree please do so.
I think addresses a lot of players that were
mentioned, and it's especially refreshing to see were
Van Eps placed.

Looking at this again it seems that maybe it is more
of a time line than pointing to influences.

For influences for Metheny here is great article.


--- Rick_Poll <richardipollack@...> wrote:

I think the problem with this sort of tree is that
some players were
more influenced by guitarists than others.

I think it's fair to say that Wes was influenced by
Christian, since
Wes reportedly learned to play by copying Christian
solos. That's
also true for a lot of guys of that era. Barney
Kessel comes to mind -
- he continued to use the "Charlie Christian" pickup
throughout his
career.

But, Jim Hall, as someone pointed out, was probably
more influenced
by horn players than guitar players. Tal Farlow
credits Red Norvo
for a lot of his style.

I don't know exactly who influenced Metheny. His
style was in place
when Bright Size Life came out. Who sounded remotely
like that? Maybe
Gary Burton and associates? Does anyone know?

The great bop players may have become guitarists
because of
Christian, and were certainly trodding in his
footsteps in trying to
play horn-like lines, but I think it would be fair
to say that Bird
influenced Raney more than Christian did. To me,
Raney's lines remind
me of Bird, not Charlie.

My old teacher, Warren Nunes, curiously had a very
small record
collection. He attributed his style to George
Shearing.

Anyway, my point is that some guitarists were not
influenced
primarily by other guitarists, Charlie Christian
himself being a
shining example.

Rick

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com




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Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Agree good points. I know Raney was greatly influenced by Parker and
I thought Farlow was a big fan of Bud Powell. Also the basic
structure of a Tree may not be the right type of illustration for
this, because different players in later generations have a
combination of influences from previous generations that don't map to
a tree structure.

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll" <richardipollack@y...>
wrote:

I think the problem with this sort of tree is that some players were
more influenced by guitarists than others.

I think it's fair to say that Wes was influenced by Christian, since
Wes reportedly learned to play by copying Christian solos. That's
also true for a lot of guys of that era. Barney Kessel comes to mind -
- he continued to use the "Charlie Christian" pickup throughout his
career.

But, Jim Hall, as someone pointed out, was probably more influenced
by horn players than guitar players. Tal Farlow credits Red Norvo
for a lot of his style.

I don't know exactly who influenced Metheny. His style was in place
when Bright Size Life came out. Who sounded remotely like that? Maybe
Gary Burton and associates? Does anyone know?

The great bop players may have become guitarists because of
Christian, and were certainly trodding in his footsteps in trying to
play horn-like lines, but I think it would be fair to say that Bird
influenced Raney more than Christian did. To me, Raney's lines remind
me of Bird, not Charlie.

My old teacher, Warren Nunes, curiously had a very small record
collection. He attributed his style to George Shearing.

Anyway, my point is that some guitarists were not influenced
primarily by other guitarists, Charlie Christian himself being a
shining example.

Rick








--- In jazz_guitar@..., "MJU" <memjazz@m...> wrote:

What about:

1. Jimmy Raney, Kenny Burrell, Barney Kessell, Tal Farlow and

others (like

Johnny Smith) in that vein after Christian?
2. Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Mundell Lowe, Tal, & Grant Green along

with Wes

and Jim Hall?

Django and Christian were essentially around at the same time. One

was

European Gypsy the other Mid West Swing and Blues.

Then thereare those that were more or less contemporaries of

Christian (an

influences on him): Oscar Moore & Eddie Durham (who was the one

that turned

a young CC on to the electric guitar).

There are too many others that were important and influential

before

Chirstian on the instrument. I saw where someone mentioned Lang,

but then

there is Kress, McDonough, Van EPs and the other big band guys like

Freddie

Green and Bus Etri that had a major impact on the instrument at the

time.

The timeline from the 1900's to 1970 would fill a volume or two of

an

encyclopedia-type book easily.

I know that you were probably giving an overview but there are too

many

people to figure in (for me that is). I must lie down and think

about

this............... :)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Williams" <scanz777@y...>
To: <jazz_guitar@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:42 PM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Jazz Guitar Tree?

I was giving it some thought and was wondering if I
was wrong in my accessment. As far as a timeline and
influences as far as styles, I picture a tree with
Charlie Christian at the apex and then two branches
with Wes Montgomery on one side and Jim Hall on the
other. It could look like this with players similiar
in style or mentioned influences branching further:

Charlie Christian
/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

This is just given as an example and maybe there are
far too many players to peg this way. But it seems
that there is one group who's lines are more bop
oriented while another is more into space and
textures.
Is this fair?


Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com

John,

Sorry about that chief - it looks like we are in complete agreement.

Rob

It's a nice idea, but will require lots of research. Here's a few to
add to the tree - more like a seperate branch!

In the UK at the same time the jazz guitar tree is broadly speaking
(there are many missed out!):

Swing Era
Lauderic Caton(b1910) & Ivor Mairants(b1908)

Bebop
Dave Goldberg(b1922) Pete Chilver(b1924) Denny Wright(b1924) Jim
Douglas(b1924)

Session Players/Big Band
Judd Proctor(b1933) Ike Isaacs(b1919) Ray Russell(b1947)

1950/1960/1970
Terry Smith(b1943) Phil Lee(b1943) Dave Cliff(b1944) Jim Mullen(b1945)

1970 Modern
Martin Taylor John Etheridge(b1948) John McLaughlin Allan Holdsworth

Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger

Allisdair

I think I hit on it when I asked in an earlier post, "Where's
Leonard Feather when we need him?"

Marshall

-- In jazz_guitar@..., "Alisdair MacRae-Birch"
<akmbirch@y...> wrote:

It's a nice idea, but will require lots of research. Here's a few

to

add to the tree - more like a seperate branch!

In the UK at the same time the jazz guitar tree is broadly speaking
(there are many missed out!):

Swing Era
Lauderic Caton(b1910) & Ivor Mairants(b1908)

Bebop
Dave Goldberg(b1922) Pete Chilver(b1924) Denny Wright(b1924) Jim
Douglas(b1924)

Session Players/Big Band
Judd Proctor(b1933) Ike Isaacs(b1919) Ray Russell(b1947)

1950/1960/1970
Terry Smith(b1943) Phil Lee(b1943) Dave Cliff(b1944) Jim Mullen

(b1945)

1970 Modern
Martin Taylor John Etheridge(b1948) John McLaughlin Allan

Holdsworth

Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"

I don't know exactly who influenced Metheny. His style was in place
when Bright Size Life came out. Who sounded remotely like that?

Maybe

Gary Burton and associates? Does anyone know?

Yeah, I thought he sounded a lot like Goodrick and Diorio back then...

Ken

I think who influenced who is a very difficult thing
to do. We all get lots of influences. We aren't
capable of understand who influenced ourselves: all
you listen, all you think -even not musical thoughts
influence our playing-, all you belive conform your
ways of expression.
Don't you think?

--- kuboken1 <kuboken1@...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"

I don't know exactly who influenced Metheny. His

style was in place

when Bright Size Life came out. Who sounded

remotely like that?
Maybe

Gary Burton and associates? Does anyone know?

Yeah, I thought he sounded a lot like Goodrick and
Diorio back then...

Ken

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

So, how we get to Sonny Sharrock?

Micah

Umm, I heard more of a rock influence in Metheny's playing: early Larry
Coryell & Bill Connors (especially his acoustic album 'Theme to The
Guardian' which came out a few years before 'Bright Size Life'). Of
course, Larry was in Gary Burton's band and Bill was in Chick Corea's
band. But you can really hear the influence of Ornette Coleman in
Metehny's playing too.

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "sonomatips" <sonomatips@y...>
wrote:

band. But you can really hear the influence of Ornette Coleman in
Metehny's playing too.

What about Metheny's playing on BSL do you hear 'Ornette'? (other than
he played an one of his tunes)

Ken

Well, yes, I hear the influence of Ornette in his phrasing/time feel.

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "kuboken1" <kuboken1@y...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "sonomatips" <sonomatips@y...>
wrote:

band. But you can really hear the influence of Ornette Coleman in
Metehny's playing too.

What about Metheny's playing on BSL do you hear 'Ornette'? (other

than he played an one of his tunes)

Ken