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Hello everybody,
I got question: where do you get licks you play from? It's clear that
some of them are taken from records, but when you play you must invent
somthing of your own, which is the way to do it????!!!!!



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Best regards,
mailto:Igord@...

Than you to all...
I truly appreciate everyone's gratuious comments, thoughts, and Insights
regarding my Altered chords education..

Matthew

Hello all!

Adding my "two-cents" to the altered discussion would be to suggest
that, in real time situations performing music, the use of an altered
dominant is generally found in the typical II-V progression of some sort
(or V of V, etc). Looking at scales to use over this chord type is fine,
theoretically speaking. In actual use, however, one would not have much
time to outline fully any scale that might relate to it's function. So
may I suggest an implied use of chord tones and intervals that would
immediately attract the listener to the primary sound of this chord
-depending on where it is heading within the chord progression.

Firstly, the root and (natural) 5th would be unnecessary. Depending on
the harmonic direction, the natural 3rd could be momentarily supplanted
by the b3rd (which would imply the #9 sound). Using the b3 and natural 3
with the b7 would give us all the intervals needed to make our musical
staement regarding a dom7#9 chord. The rhythmic placement of these tones
would then be more essential to the ear than attempting to identify as
many alterations as possible from a scalar point of view.

Let us assume, then, for purposes of analysis, that we only have 2 beats
for our altered chord. The choice of rhythmic displacement is purely
arbitray. However, let us say we are playing eighth notes using the
b3rd, natural 3rd and b7th. If we accent on the first and third of the
eighth note count, then it would be wise to place the primary chord tones
(3rd and b7th) there, leaving the b3(=#9) and another altered tone
(perhaps the b9 or b5, or #5) to be used on the "weaker" beats. The
thing to do, of course, is to attempt a phrase that will CONNECT from the
previous chord to theup-and-coming chord. This it seems is far better
than a random approach to using these tones.

To impliment this, we simply align the last note in our 2 beat phrase as
diatonically close to an essential chord tone from the upcoming chord in
the progression as possible. We have all seen such an approach when
moving from an altered dominant to a I Ma7 chord. For example, moving
from G7(alt) to C Ma7. If the "target" tone in C Ma7 is the natural 3rd,
then an obvious choice for the last note moving from our G7(alt) would
either be a #5 or the b7. This translates to smooth voice leading via
the use of chromaticism, either one half-step above or below, depending
upon weather or not the phrasing is in ascending or descending movement.

There you have it. Nothing new of course. But then again, what is? I
merely suggest that it is more important to connect phrases smoothly
using definitive chord tones and target these accordingly, than to
attempt to "paint" the sound of a functioning dominant 7th using a broad
brush approach; ie, namely, all the scalar possibilities. In the end, of
course, if it makes for "good" music, then it doesn't really matter which
approach is utilized. I offer these comments as suggestive of a
minimalist approach to improvising (not to be confused with a simplistic
approach).

Thanks for the stimulating comments.


Don Price

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Brad I agree with you.?? The V7altered is using the bII7,9,#11,13 over
the V7 chord and is based on the tri-tone sub.
If no where else this was standardized at the Berklee School of
Music by the late '60's.
The most common scale used to play over it is the Melodic Minor Scale
one half step above the root of the V7 Chord.? So

V7 in D???? A7,b9,#9,b5,#5?? or altered
bII7?????????? Eb7,9,#11,13
bVIminor?? Bb Melodic Minor

Scale tones:????? A???? Bb?? C?? Db(c#)?? Eb?? F?? G??? A
A7?????????????????? root? b9?? #9?? 3?????????? b5?? #5? b7
Eb7???????????????? #11?? 5???? 6??? b7???????? root? 9??? 3

There is a whole tone scale Db(c#)? Eb(d#)? F? G?? A
B natural will complete it.??? Also very common.

I really just play the bII chord and let the bass player play V or bII.
So if reading charts I have to interpret.
There are others that see the altered V7 as any of the altered tones not always
all of them which leads to other sounds like A13b9.? More like a Bb diminished
scale.? But V7alt at one time was defined as all the altered tones.? All 4 of them.
?
?

Brad Rabuchin wrote:

MPetra7790@... wrote:

> I am hoping to gain some insight on the whole altered chord situation.
>???? Feel free to share music and examples.
>?????????? Thank you,
>?????????????? PEACE out,
>??????????????????? Matthew

Matthew,

The subject of Altered chords is quite a can-of-worms, and a broad subject
as well. From talking to, and especially listening to how various players
approach altered chords, I've witnessed many different(and sometimes
conflicting)concepts of which, where and how often altered chords & scales
are used. And how a player uses this altered stuff, I believe, goes along
way to determining their individual style-ie..altered harmony is often the
"spice" used to color the chords or solos in a tune.

That said, here's one idea to start with:
Notice the relationship between dominant chords a b5(tri-tone) apart.
for example: A7=Eb7b5 b9(no root)? or the opposite; Eb7=A7b9b5
? {A7 is spelled A,C#,E,G = Eb7b5b9(no root) is; G, Bbb(A),Db(C#)&Fb(E)

A little complicated, but the point is you can get 7b5b7 chord voicings by
playing straight dominant 7th(or just triads) a b5 away.
So, for instance, on a Bb jazz blues whose first 4 bars? might be written:
Bb7? /? Eb7 / Bb7 / Bb7 /????? you could play:??? Bb7 / Eb7 / Bb7 / E7 /
and with the bass player probably playing that fourth bar as? a Bb7 it would
come out sounding like a Bb7b5b9.

What the rest of you guys have to add?

Brad

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?

THE TUNE "WHAT DO YOU WANT?" ON PAT METHENY'S NEW CD: "TRIO 99-> 2000, IS BASED ON A 'RHYTHM CHANGES' FORMAT. THE CD IS ON "WARNER BROTHER SRECORDS". ENJOY, JOE GIGLIO.

MPetra7790@... wrote:

I am hoping to gain some insight on the whole altered chord situation.
Feel free to share music and examples.
Thank you,
PEACE out,
Matthew

Matthew,

The subject of Altered chords is quite a can-of-worms, and a broad subject
as well. From talking to, and especially listening to how various players
approach altered chords, I've witnessed many different(and sometimes
conflicting)concepts of which, where and how often altered chords & scales
are used. And how a player uses this altered stuff, I believe, goes along
way to determining their individual style-ie..altered harmony is often the
"spice" used to color the chords or solos in a tune.

That said, here's one idea to start with:
Notice the relationship between dominant chords a b5(tri-tone) apart.
for example: A7=Eb7b5 b9(no root) or the opposite; Eb7=A7b9b5
{A7 is spelled A,C#,E,G = Eb7b5b9(no root) is; G, Bbb(A),Db(C#)&Fb(E)

A little complicated, but the point is you can get 7b5b7 chord voicings by
playing straight dominant 7th(or just triads) a b5 away.
So, for instance, on a Bb jazz blues whose first 4 bars might be written:
Bb7 / Eb7 / Bb7 / Bb7 / you could play: Bb7 / Eb7 / Bb7 / E7 /
and with the bass player probably playing that fourth bar as a Bb7 it would
come out sounding like a Bb7b5b9.

What the rest of you guys have to add?

Brad

Another good example of a rhythm changes tune is on the Scofield CD "Grace
Under Pressure" featuring Frisell. It's the title tune and has good solos by both
Scofield and Frisell followed by them trading/wrestling for a minute. A good
example of not being obliged to hit all (or even most of)the changes all the
time.
An interesting note: this album was originally supposed to be a
Scofield/Metheny Album with Metheny being a last minute scratch and Frisell
getting the call to sub(they later did hook up on the CD "I can See Your House
From Here").

Brad

Tdystrings@... wrote:

I have this incredible album. But I guess I haven't listened to it
closely because I wasn't aware they played Rhythm Changes. Which tune
are you talking about?

Yes there are recordings of Metheny and Jim Hall and Frissell playing
Rhythm Changes. just a brief note on this subject. Pat Metheny plays a rhythm
changes tune on his Rejoicing Cd the tune is called Rejoicing. An example for
Jim Hall would be on Jim Hall Live he play Scrapple from the Apple. On
Concierto he also plays a rhythm changes tune.Some great Frisell are the
recordings with Paul Motian, and The new one, Play a Mike Stern CD featuring
Bill Frisell and John Scofield. This should get you started.
Peace,
Teddy

I'm sure he was referring to any tune using generic
"rhythm changes", i.e. the chord progression to
"I Got Rhythm". I didn't even know there was a tune
titled "Rhythm Changes".

Other tunes that use "rhythm changes" (or variations thereof):

Anthropology (Charlie Parker)
Blue's Theme (Blue Mitchell)
Celerity (C. Parker)
Celia (C. Parker)
Chasing the Bird (C. Parker)
Constellation (C. Parker)
Cottontail (D. Ellington)
Crazeology (Benny Harris)
Dizzy Atmosphere (D. Gillespie)
The Eternal Triangle (Sonny Stitt)
Funji Mama (Blue Mitchell)
Good Bait
Kim (C. Parker)
Lester Leaps In (C. Basie)
Meet the Flintstones (Hannah-Barbera) :-)
Moose the Mooch (C. Parker)
New Wheels (Mulgrew Miller)
Oleo (S. Rollins)
An Oscar for Treadwell (C. Parker)
Ow! (D. Gillespie)
Passport (C. Parker)
Red Cross (C. Parker)
Rhythm-A-Ning (T. Monk)
Second Balcony Jump (Jerry Valentine)
The Serpent's Tooth (M. Davis)
Shaw Nuff (C. Parker/ D. Gillespie)
Steeplechase (C. Parker)
Straight Ahead (Kenny Dorham)
The Theme (M. Davis)
Thriving from a Riff (C. Parker)
Turnpike (J.J. Johnson)
Wail (Bud Powell)

--brent

I am japaniese jazz guiterist ,I like jimmy raney very much,
his son,doug is also beautiful!
I playing ES 175 made in USA by 1952 OLD VINTAGE MODEL
P-90 PICK UP VERY SWEET MY SWEET-HEART! OH! wonderful boy!
BY !WHAT?!

Metheny has definitely never recorded it. I looked at
www.allmusic.com, a
great database for this kind of question, and see only two
recordings of it,
one by Lucky Millinder and the other by Reinhard Flatischler.

Rick

Does anyone know any recordings with Pat Metheny, Jim Hall, or Bill
Frisell playing Rhythm Changes? Thanks for any help.

I'm sure he was referring to any tune using generic
"rhythm changes", i.e. the chord progression to
"I Got Rhythm". I didn't even know there was a tune
titled "Rhythm Changes".

Steve Gallagher

Sam -

Metheny has definitely never recorded it. I looked at www.allmusic.com, a
great database for this kind of question, and see only two recordings of it,
one by Lucky Millinder and the other by Reinhard Flatischler.

Rick

Yeah, Jim Hall is a beast I'd love to see. Any idea how often he comes back
home?

Yes, I have a video of Metheny doing that. Not sure where to get it.
It was taken from a QuebecJazz Festival. I'll look into it.

-Don

I also think that's what Sam was talking about, Steve. That's why I
recommended
the CD "Jim Hall & Pat Metheny". They're both palaying rythum changes but
without any other rythum instruments.

Flip

Does anyone know any recordings with Pat Metheny, Jim Hall, or Bill
Frisell playing Rhythm Changes? Thanks for any help.
-Sam

I know of one incredible jazz guitarist to come out of Cleveland. His
name is Jim Hall.
-Sam

Check out a CD called "Jim Hall and Pat Matheny" . Some nice playing, some
experimental things might have you scratching your head. Worth a listen.

Hi all!

I'm looking for a Howard Roberts CD called "Dirty N Funky" (1998,
Guitarchives 19483) in order to transcribe a couple of tunes off of the album. Can anybody help?

--brent