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jazz_guitar@... wrote:

Original Message:
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 22:46:05 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@...>
Subject: Re: Stella suggestions..

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Zeek Duff" <zkduff@q...>

wrote:

Laying various scales over something just

because they fit

the math/mode is mechanical BS, and is

forgetting the only

reason to know them at all is to contain the

ability within

one's palette to play what taste and desire

dictate in the

mind as appropriate; or to be able to play

what's already

been written. Otherwise, you're simply

generating nonsense a

trained monkey could reproduce...

I think you're painting this too much as a

black/white kind of issue.

For example, let's say someone can hear the

melodies they want to

play in their head but only to within a

7-tone-per-octave resolution.

Working through some possibilities for chord/scale

relationships will

help you put your fingers in the right place as

these ideas flow out

of your head. Of course, once you're experienced

enough with this,

you'll find that there are times you want to play

the "wrong" notes,

and you'll stop relying on the theory because your

head/hands will

immediately be able to serve your aural

imagination. But you have to

learn to walk before you can run!

I agree, and I certainly realize that having all the
tools at one's disposal
that can be retained and used is a good thing. And,
I realize the value of
"mistakes" in often guiding one to something useful,
awesome, pretty, cool,
different, workable, etc., that might not have
otherwise been conceived of,
let alone thought of "in the flow." However, my
point was simply that while
laying scales over a set of chord changes might be a
useful learning tool in
knowing what scales might work over what chords and
more importantly, over
what progressions and/or transitions, it's not my
idea of a good way to
learn a given song, keeping the author's essence
intact. For example, if I
hear someone play so far outside the original as to
make it nearly or
completely unrecognizable, I wonder why the same
effort wasn't put into
creating a completely original piece. Additionally,
I find a furious flurry
of scales attempting to pass for a melody just
absolutely inane and boring.
That's strictly my opinion, of course. ;)

Along the ear training ideas; I used to work with a
wacked out alto player
(in a monastery last I heard) that would go into a
corner on breaks and run
"scales" until about 5 minutes before the next set.
When asked what he was
doing, he'd say "playing chords." I started
thinking about that, and
realized that's a major difference in concept for a
horn player from a
pianist or guitarist. He could play all the same
chords I could, but only
one note at a time. So, I changed my thinking a
tad, listening to chords I
played and trying to imagine playing them on a horn
(having learned to read
music on trumpet as a child). Then, I noticed a lot
of similarity to that
concept in certain classical music and a lot of
ethnic folk and bluegrass,
especially ancient stuff. (As an aside, I wonder if
that's because old
instruments were nearly impossible to keep tuned and
block chords,
especially close intervals just sounded lousy...)
So now, to some extent, I
try to think of chords as scales and scales as
chords when building an
arrangement. Anyway, just a thought on an approach
to generating scales and
arpeggios and hearing them that really blew my mind
at the time. :)

Also, about singing lines so one can hear them in
their head, absolutely a
must have ability. You don't need a good voice,
just a good ear; and it
gets easier just like playing an FM7 with yer index
on the low E 1st fret,
middle finger on the A&D 3rd fret and yer pinky on
the G,B&highE, 5th fret.
(Make sure your health insurance is current, if it's
your first time.)

It's one thing to have all these tools and ideas,
and quite another to use
them with taste. To me, taste is more like common
sense than subjective
artwork. No matter what the style, or even in
creating a new one, tasty
writing, arranging, and playing is always a
pleasure. And, like common
sense, not everyone has good taste. I don't know if
that comes from a
natural ability as much as thinking things out, or
just the desire to
constantly keep improving, but it sure is fun to
watch people grow and
especially, to recognize one's own growth over
time...

All of that said, let me be clear that one of the
great things I love about
jazz is "no absolute rules." Parameters can be
stretched, bent, rerouted,
and ignored as long as something interesting
results. And, of course,
"interesting" is totally subjective. :)))

Regards,
...z



Eat one live toad the first thing in the morning and
nothing worse will
happen to you the rest of the day...

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

L.G. "Zeek" Duff
WHAT!Productions!
Blue Wall Studio
303.485.9438
ICQ#35974686

I guess my question is more...Do you think this
system
is a good way to start off a student?

Mark Stanley wrote:

That Goodrich excercise really helped my
musicality. I think any limitations like that

really

force you to discover new things.

--- Steve chili Grebanier <chili@...>

wrote:

Hi,

I've been lurking on the jazz guitar group for

some

time now
and genuinely enjoy many of the topics.

I'm looking for opinions on Mick Goodrick's

concept

(from
his book "The Advancing Guitarist") of starting
students off
by playing on a single string with one finger.

As someone who has been playing for some time

now, I

find it
a great exercise. Playing on one string truly

allows

one to
see (and hear) the scale intervals in a linear
fashion; thus
breaking down the usual mystique that comes with
learning
scales (and chords) on the guitar; and as you

move

on to the
other strings you start natarually seeing and
hearing how
the different strings relate to each other. From
this,
shapes and patterns begin to appear that aren't
based in
"boxed in" finger patterns.

Opinions?


Chili

That Goodrich excercise really helped my
musicality. I think any limitations like that really
force you to discover new things.

--- Steve chili Grebanier <chili@...> wrote:

Hi,

I've been lurking on the jazz guitar group for some
time now
and genuinely enjoy many of the topics.

I'm looking for opinions on Mick Goodrick's concept
(from
his book "The Advancing Guitarist") of starting
students off
by playing on a single string with one finger.

As someone who has been playing for some time now, I
find it
a great exercise. Playing on one string truly allows
one to
see (and hear) the scale intervals in a linear
fashion; thus
breaking down the usual mystique that comes with
learning
scales (and chords) on the guitar; and as you move
on to the
other strings you start natarually seeing and
hearing how
the different strings relate to each other. From
this,
shapes and patterns begin to appear that aren't
based in
"boxed in" finger patterns.

Opinions?


Chili

I have played and studied jazz guitar for 25years in
the NYC area. I
spent 12 years as a full time player and now would
like to swap
thoughts and ideas with other players. I studied
with Chuck Wayne
and briefly with Joe Pass on the West Coast some
years back. My main
instrument is a '61 ES335 dot but have recently
bought an Anderson
Hollow-T. Please feel free to correspond.

Thanks,
I appreciate your comments..
So, to me it seems it is essential and necessary to
learn (this
approach(arps and scales) to be able to use them,
and at the same
time to eventually be free of the constraints of all
the specific
notes. i.e. so that approach notes, passing tones
and chromaticism
can come in to play.
For where I am now it seems really necessary to do
this as I wont
necessarily think of the sounds of superlocrian over
a given chord
unless I work for awhile on those particular notes..

I expect that over time it will be as obvious to my
as ears as
playing pentatonic minor rock/blues riffs.

Seems like some of the best advice I've heard on
developing lines is
to sing along with what you are playing(or play what
you are singing)
so the lines are in your head first and your fingers
arent just
playing patterns..Seems Joe Pass and Herb Ellis both
mentioned this
in some of their instructional vids.
I also heard it from Jay Roberts(son of Howard
Roberts) at my first
lesson with him. When I went back for the second
lesson he noticed I
wasn't singing along with my playing...."Gottcha!!"

workin on it:-),
Eddie

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., Mark Stanley
<bucketfullopuke@y...> wrote:

I think this "such and such chord = such and such
scale" is OK for beginners to think about. I

really

think that you have to be aware that this is a

means

to an end. You have to know your instrument

COLD-know

your modes and scales and theory inside and out,

but

when a great improviser is playing, it is about

sound,

feeling and time (or the three T's- tone, time and
taste).
If you always play the same scale tones over the

same

chord it really sounds like painting by numbers. I
dont think any great improviser like Freddie

Hubbard

or Metheny for example, are thinking about any

scale.

I hear Eric Dolphy rip thru 5 modes and keys in a
single line.

I just think you have to be careful about how you
approach imrovising. I really screwed up my

playing by

practicing licks and scales all the time. Guess

what I

played when I improvised.... I am glad that I got

the

language down, because that's really important

too,

but
you have to work on just hearing and finding the

sound

you are going for over the changes.
That's how I see it anyway.
Mark